09-08-2022, 05:42 PM | #265 | |
Captain
1023
Rep 836
Posts |
Quote:
Ripping down the gears at max brake force without upsetting the car is much harders to do on a manual, not just braking. I wouldn't attempt it either. Both feet in, especially if you're not used to doing it. Did you expect a DCT to do something weird? |
|
Appreciate
1
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-08-2022, 06:22 PM | #266 | |
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
People forget that the vehicle is a tool, and it's the driver that really matters. I never bought into the gate keeping of manual transmissions. I agree they should be saved, but it really is making the best of what you have.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
|
Appreciate
1
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-08-2022, 06:54 PM | #267 | |||
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
On the track, we also practice trail-braking. To put it simply, hard on brakes, then bleed off as you approach the apex. This is mainly done to shift weight from front to rear as we corner. With weight transferring on the front at the beginning of the corner, then shifting to the rear as we apex and begin to apply throttle, ideally with the weight now being on the rear powered wheels. This is where smoothness plays a roll. You want to be in the correct gear as you are lifting off the brakes and start to apply power. This means downshifting as you brake. In a MT, that requires heel-toe so that the car doesn't get upset when most of the weight is on the front tires, and you are beginning to turn. Upsetting the car can be disastrous as you are just transitioning from threshold braking to turning. A disruption can shift the weight to the front just as you are in the middle of transitioning the weight to the rear. All this is happening within hundreds of a second, so when you pull it off in an MT, it's very satisfying, but it's also very difficult, and difficult to reproduce with accuracy and precision lap after lap after lap. On the street, we do the complete opposite. Emergency braking is almost always full on ABS so that the car doesn't lock the tires and negate steering. In non-emergency braking, we also do the opposite of trail braking. Soft brakes first, then gradually apply more pressure as the car comes to a stop. In a nutshell, on the street, you aren't trying transition into a corner immediately after hard braking, you simply want to keep on the brakes and stop the car. That's the difference, and technically, why the DCT is more suited for the track than the MT because of how smooth and fast it is for this transition. The same could be said for the M-tuned ZF8.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
|||
Appreciate
2
RM72901.50 BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-08-2022, 08:21 PM | #268 | |
Major
1839
Rep 1,328
Posts |
Quote:
https://cartreatments.com/straight-c...at%20advantage. Reverse gears in most manual gearboxes are straight cut. That's the reason most cars have gear whine when reversing. Shawn |
|
Appreciate
1
RM72901.50 |
09-08-2022, 09:13 PM | #269 | |
The Ben Shapiro of this place. I never lose! LOL
2330
Rep 3,021
Posts
Drives: 12 plaids on order
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Tesla Land
|
Quote:
Exactly. Keep preaching. |
|
Appreciate
1
jmg18872.00 |
09-08-2022, 09:26 PM | #270 | |
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
As far as what is better, manual or auto/dct for emergency ABS braking? I doubt one has any advantage over the other besides weight.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 Last edited by jmg; 09-08-2022 at 09:40 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
3
|
09-08-2022, 09:37 PM | #271 | |
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
So in reality, maximum force to stop the wheel from turning is not needed, or even necessary. It's actually the point right before lock. So really, the added power to the wheels from an automatic would simply factor into the amount of braking before lock, theoretically requiring a tiny bit more braking, BUT ultimately still LESS than full braking. Engine braking does not affect emergency stopping distance.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
|
Appreciate
2
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 Theruleslawyer1023.00 |
09-09-2022, 02:24 AM | #273 |
ghost user
243
Rep 248
Posts |
Had to get the 6MT for my M2. Three years later.. meh. It's not a particularly great manual box and the DCT would've been a better way to go.
|
Appreciate
2
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 UPSROD947.00 |
09-09-2022, 07:42 AM | #274 | ||
Captain
1023
Rep 836
Posts |
Quote:
If you are engaging ABS you have enough brake torque to overcome your max braking grip. (Usually by a substantial amount at normal highway speeds). Automatic cars also have no issue engaging ABS. Therefore they they also have enough brake torque to exceed max braking grip. Any difference in distance is weight, balance, and mostly noise. So let's repeat. If you can engage ABS what you are doing with the engine doesn't mean squat. Im not sure where this idea of the drag of the engine makes a difference comes from. It sounds like lore that started back when 4 wheel drum brakes were a thing and got passed along without question. Or maybe it was a misunderstanding of being told both feet in on emergency braking which is valid, but someone pulled this out of their butt when asked why? |
||
Appreciate
2
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 jmg18872.00 |
09-09-2022, 09:51 AM | #275 | ||
Captain
1023
Rep 836
Posts |
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
2
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 jmg18872.00 |
09-09-2022, 10:14 AM | #276 |
Captain
1023
Rep 836
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-09-2022, 10:47 AM | #277 |
The Ben Shapiro of this place. I never lose! LOL
2330
Rep 3,021
Posts
Drives: 12 plaids on order
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Tesla Land
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-09-2022, 11:06 AM | #278 | |
Private First Class
84
Rep 111
Posts |
Quote:
Every time ABS releases the brakes (one of the pumps) you are less efficient at slowing down. The best way to feel the difference is to engage the ABS and when you feel the vibrations in the pedal, modulate the pedal just enough so that the vibrations stop. Eg, don't hold the brake all the way in but don't release it entirely either. Just lift barely enough so that the vibrations (the ABS) stops. In this case, you'll be using the maximum amount of braking that never causes a lockup so ABS doesn't intervene. You'll be amazed by how much more braking force you feel as you reach this pre-ABS point. (in this case, "braking force" means tires on road, not foot on pedal). Basically, you'll notice a dramatic increase in the stopping power of your car. |
|
Appreciate
2
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 jmg18872.00 |
09-09-2022, 12:40 PM | #279 | ||
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
All this happens very very fast, intermittently. It also allows for the driver to have more control since locked tires cannot steer the vehicles. All the road sees is a contact patch sliding across the surface. When ABS releases the lock by pumping the brakes intermittently, this allows the wheels to roll and "catch-up" with the road, and effectively return some control. Threshold braking still has a shorter braking distance in most cases, but you are right, in an emergency situation, it would be difficult to threshold brake unless you've done it thousands of times. And yes, if you track, you start to do this instinctively. I literally threshold brake multiple times a lap and I've done hundreds and hundreds of laps. Not to long ago I had to emergency brake with my family in the car, and instinct kicked in and I didn't engage ABS. My wife literally was in shock how fast we stopped. Everything in the car was thrown to the front, and we were shaken, but threshold braking works. In 99.9% of cases for everyone else though, just use ABS.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 Last edited by jmg; 09-09-2022 at 12:50 PM.. |
||
Appreciate
1
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-09-2022, 01:29 PM | #280 | ||||
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I've indicated a few times that I agree with this sentiment.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
||||
Appreciate
1
BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-09-2022, 01:35 PM | #281 | |
Major
1839
Rep 1,328
Posts |
Quote:
Everybody THINKS they can. Everybody THINKS they have. When we objectively test....NOPE... Shawn |
|
Appreciate
2
jmg18872.00 BGM-M3COMP2329.50 |
09-09-2022, 01:56 PM | #282 | |
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
-Unless you are using a stop box in an autocross type course, you aren't coming to a complete stop. Perhaps the trade-off of reduced braking distance is worth the pedal feel for brake-throttle transition during cornering on the track, reducing lap times. -Did they let the brakes cool between runs? Braking distance is indeed increased as brake temps go up. -Did they let the tires cool between runs? Overheated tires and worn tires also increase brake distance. -I'd also be interested to see how well ABS adapts to overheated brakes and tires. They should have immediately done a few more ABS trials after Scott's non-ABS trials to match conditions better -They should have done runs with ABS enabled for Scott, but allowed him to threshold brake. Perhaps manually threshold braking, while still allowing the ABS to kick in to account for human error is better than full ABS or full threshold brake? The best of both worlds? Of course, a track environment is very different than street environment, so I still agree ABS is best for emergency braking on pubic roads.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-09-2022, 02:00 PM | #283 | |
Major
1839
Rep 1,328
Posts |
Quote:
Because as you point out, the physics say you CAN, if you can hold the perfect braking pressure right before the wheel locks. Shawn |
|
Appreciate
1
jmg18872.00 |
09-09-2022, 02:35 PM | #284 | |
Major
1839
Rep 1,328
Posts |
Quote:
But it was MOSTLY because the ABS had inconsistent stopping distances as well. The human did an average lower than the ABS. But the shortest stop was still ABS, just the human averaged shorter. But that was 30 years ago. And they didn't have video. And Bosch has come up with MUCH better 2 and 4 channel ABS units in the meantime. Shawn |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-09-2022, 02:44 PM | #285 | ||
Lieutenant General
18872
Rep 14,143
Posts
Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Regardless if anyone can outperform ABS or not, your claim that torque from an automatic increases emergency braking distance when ABS is engaged is incorrect. Not really a "mic drop" moment if we are sticking to the subject.
__________________
2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3 IG: Raging_G82 |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-09-2022, 02:51 PM | #286 |
Major
1839
Rep 1,328
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|