[eelnoraa]

Guys, common. Hardware and plug has the same power and efficiency for all the intended purpose. People can argue the plug may add some resistance in the connection, but think reality, how much??? It is negligible in the grand scheme. NEC is so conservative, You think they will approve plug if difference isn’t negligible.

Plug vs wire, just pick the more convenient one, installation and availability, or many lower cost …. . There are a lot more meaningful things in life than spending time in this.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Line Drive

Thanks for all that – super-helpful.

Below is my current plan – would you guys mind looking this over to ensure I’m not missing anything or have wrong info? Thanks!

Because of the supply issues around the adapter cable to the BMW fast charger, I’m thinking of going with a separate unit, like the ChargePoint Home Flex. To accommodate a 40A level 2 charger, I will need to create a 50A circuit. (I will be charging only one vehicle on this circuit, so load sharing isn’t a current issue.) My garage setup has only 110V outlets currently.

The only other users of electricity in the garage would be lights, a refrigerator, garage doors, and if anything is plugged into the existing 110V outlets for temporary use. But because the EV charger would be on a dedicated 50A circuit, other items in the garage don’t matter in the sense that they're not counting toward the dedicated circuit's 50A, is that right? So a 50A circuit would be enough if my charger would be 40A and the most my 50e can pull anyway is 32A, right?

My current main panel has no open slots. An adjacent subpanel has two slots remaining, and an electrician friend of mine said I could move circuits from the main panel to the subpanel and use the open slots on the main panel for the new EV 50A circuit. Does that make sense? If I'm only doing 50A for the EV, can't I use the open slots on the subpanel? Or should I be thinking of something else? (I would be hiring an electrician, not doing the work myself!)

Thanks again

Separate circuit, by definition is separate. So usage on other circuits won’t impact a separate circuit. As to empty space in panel, there are many option depending on your situation. One simple way is to use half width breaker to replace full width breakers, just an example. Putting circuit on subpanel is also ok too. It really depend on your existing setup. So let electrician handle it. The cost is mainly labor and wires. If they need additional breaker, it won’t make much of a difference

[jad03060]

The vehicle will never pull more power than its internal power supply can use. Just like you can plug a 50W lamp into a circuit that could handle 1800W(15A*120V), your BMW can't use more, even if you plug in an EVSE that can supply more. The EVSE sends out a pilot signal to the vehicle that announces the maximum number of amps it can supply, then it's up to the vehicle to never try to draw more than that. Internally, you can opt to set a maximum amount of amps, but that doesn't work across the board, depending on the specific device.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by ramachk

J1772 or Level 2 charger - see that this only delivers ~7kw which I think will take about 3-4 hours for a full charge - are there faster Level 2 / J1772 chargers available? I am realizing that upgrading the panel is required to add a home charger and there is a waiting line with the local energy provider to get the approvals etc. Looking for options till then. Thanks for all the responses

you're not understanding the components properly. the level 2 is not the charger; it's an EVSE, so it doesn't matter if you get one that can go to 1000A. it'll still take ~3h to charge the 50e from 0-100%. why? because of the 7.4kW charger which is inside the vehicle. at 240V, it will only accept up to 32A due to:

Watts (W) divided by Voltage (V) = Amps (A)
7400W divided by 240V = 30.8A
...
22kWh (adjusted for charging losses) divided by 7.4kW = ~3h

[ramachk]

thanks for the clarification - did not realize that the 50e has an internal charger that throttles the speed of charging.

[jad03060]

An EVSE is a fancy, semi-smart power cord...all of the charging logic and the AC-DC conversion is done IN the vehicle. A typical EVSE costs less than $1k...a CCS unit can be $20K or more, and it would be a rare home that had a large enough power panel to support one.

The X5 PHEVs do not have HVDC (CCS) charging capabilities. A CCS unit IS a DC power supply that wouild bypass the AC-DC converter in the X5 PHEV if it had that capability (mostly on BEVs, not PHEVs). Those, when available, tend to be higher powered than the one in the vehicle as they can be larger and have more cooling capacity.

[Line Drive]

For those in the Dominion Energy service area and who have signed up for the Residential Charger Program, any initial feedback?

It seems like something close to a no-brainer, at least for me. Installing the wiring and plugs will be at least $2k, not counting the cost of the charger itself. The Dominion Energy program is $40 a month for everything all in, with a $125 rebate off the charger purchase and $40 rebated annually for keeping with the program. It's essentially taking my total installation cost and spreading it out over five years. Even Dominion Energy being able to pause my charging during high peak times can be over-ridden if I really wanted to (I would mostly be charging overnight, so I'm not sure this would be an issue for me.)

What's the downside? I'd be interested in anyone's feedback who signed up. Thanks

[Duke24]

Originally Posted by Line Drive

For those in the Dominion Energy service area and who have signed up for the Residential Charger Program, any initial feedback?

It seems like something close to a no-brainer, at least for me. Installing the wiring and plugs will be at least $2k, not counting the cost of the charger itself. The Dominion Energy program is $40 a month for everything all in, with a $125 rebate off the charger purchase and $40 rebated annually for keeping with the program. It's essentially taking my total installation cost and spreading it out over five years. Even Dominion Energy being able to pause my charging during high peak times can be over-ridden if I really wanted to (I would mostly be charging overnight, so I'm not sure this would be an issue for me.)

What's the downside? I'd be interested in anyone's feedback who signed up. Thanks

I’m in the Dominion Energy service area. To my knowledge, the $40 is only given annually, not monthly. Therefore, I don’t think there is any immediate financial incentive, maybe more long term. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think we are looking to recoup some of the installation cost from the IRS for EV charger installation. I did receive the $125 rebate for the charger purchase through Dominion.

[couchgate]

Originally Posted by Duke24

I’m in the Dominion Energy service area. To my knowledge, the $40 is only given annually, not monthly. Therefore, I don’t think there is any immediate financial incentive, maybe more long term. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think we are looking to recoup some of the installation cost from the IRS for EV charger installation. I did receive the $125 rebate for the charger purchase through Dominion.

Dominion area here too - my impression is the same in that its $40 yearly. Juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze to give them the rights to stop your charger - even though it only happened 1-2 days last August.

[Line Drive]

Right it’s $40 a month, and effectively you get one month back a year, plus the savings of $125 off the charger. I thought I was clear above, but sorry if I wasn’t.

I’m not following why you think it’s not worth it. Effectively it’s no cash outlay upfront to install the wiring, plugs and charger. In my case, it would take five years before my $40 monthly payment on top of my regular electric bill would exceed the cost I would have had to pay up front to an electrician.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Line Drive

Right it’s $40 a month, and effectively you get one month back a year, plus the savings of $125 off the charger. I thought I was clear above, but sorry if I wasn’t.

I’m not following why you think it’s not worth it. Effectively it’s no cash outlay upfront to install the wiring, plugs and charger. In my case, it would take five years before my $40 monthly payment on top of my regular electric bill would exceed the cost I would have had to pay up front to an electrician.

you pay $40/month to be in the program?

yes, there’s a $40 annual rebate on your anniversary month.

when I signed up in late 2021 here in VA, it was called the Demand Response program. I don’t have to pay $40/month to be in the program, though, yet I do get the $40 annual rebate

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Line Drive

Right it’s $40 a month, and effectively you get one month back a year, plus the savings of $125 off the charger. I thought I was clear above, but sorry if I wasn’t.

I’m not following why you think it’s not worth it. Effectively it’s no cash outlay upfront to install the wiring, plugs and charger. In my case, it would take five years before my $40 monthly payment on top of my regular electric bill would exceed the cost I would have had to pay up front to an electrician.

is there length on this contract? There must be one, right? Because installation is permanent. Once done, it is not like they can come rip it out. If everyone sign up, get the installation done (as you said, cost $2K), then cancel after 1 month, they will lose money big time

[sk03]

Sharing some more information as I'm learning through the process. Unless one has a strong preference for NEMA plugs, the EVSE is best hardwired. Random tidbits :
- Consider future and not x50e since new evse setup is not cheap. You'll likely be upgrading x50e or getting pure BVs whose demand is going to be much higher than x50e.
- NEMA plug means 50A breaker --> 40A max charge current irrespective of charger. Good enough for x50e, not so much for any other EVs.
-Cheap NEMA plugs can cause heating and other issues.
- Chargepoint can go charging hardwired at upto 80A on a 100A breaker and correct wiring. Keep the future demand in perspective.
- A NEMA plug is going to require 6/3 wire (4 strands) while hardwired Chargepoint/Emporia can work off cheaper 6/2 (3 stands) wire. There's a significant price difference between these wires especially if you have long run to garage.

In my case I recently got a Volvo and am doing hardwired Emporia that can charge at 48A max on a 60A breaker.

[MikeX521]

Originally Posted by sk03

Sharing some more information as I'm learning through the process. Unless one has a strong preference for NEMA plugs, the EVSE is best hardwired. Random tidbits :
- Consider future and not x50e since new evse setup is not cheap. You'll likely be upgrading x50e or getting pure BVs whose demand is going to be much higher than x50e.
- NEMA plug means 50A breaker --> 40A max charge current irrespective of charger. Good enough for x50e, not so much for any other EVs.
-Cheap NEMA plugs can cause heating and other issues.
- Chargepoint can go charging hardwired at upto 80A on a 100A breaker and correct wiring. Keep the future demand in perspective.
- A NEMA plug is going to require 6/3 wire (4 strands) while hardwired Chargepoint/Emporia can work off cheaper 6/2 (3 stands) wire. There's a significant price difference between these wires especially if you have long run to garage.

In my case I recently got a Volvo and am doing hardwired Emporia that can charge at 48A max on a 60A breaker.

Couple comments on this…
You can do a nema 6-50 - 6/2 wire at 50 amps as well
6/2 or 6/3 is rated for 60A hard wired. So if you do a nema plug you can swap to hard wired and upgrade your breaker and you can get 60A.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by MikeX521

Couple comments on this…
You can do a nema 6-50 - 6/2 wire at 50 amps as well
6/2 or 6/3 is rated for 60A hard wired. So if you do a nema plug you can swap to hard wired and upgrade your breaker and you can get 60A.

6AWG is good for 55A per NEC. So to pass inspection, you need to use 50A breaker. 60A breaker will technically fail inspection. If you hire a licensed electrician, he/she will not risk the inspection fail with a 60A breaker

[couchgate]

Dumb question: does the BMW Wallbox have any useful integrations with the car itself or the My BMW app? Anything value to it over a Charepoint or Juicebox?

[sk03]

Originally Posted by MikeX521

Couple comments on this…
You can do a nema 6-50 - 6/2 wire at 50 amps as well
6/2 or 6/3 is rated for 60A hard wired. So if you do a nema plug you can swap to hard wired and upgrade your breaker and you can get 60A.

nema 6-50 - yes you are correct about its requirement and I was referring to 14-50.
Regarding the wire - also found out that Romex 6/3 or 6/2 is rated at 55A max but only 44A continuous. If you truly want the 60A then you have to use the individual THHN wire which can also get very expensive.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by sk03

Sharing some more information as I'm learning through the process. Unless one has a strong preference for NEMA plugs, the EVSE is best hardwired. Random tidbits :
- Consider future and not x50e since new evse setup is not cheap. You'll likely be upgrading x50e or getting pure BVs whose demand is going to be much higher than x50e.
- NEMA plug means 50A breaker --> 40A max charge current irrespective of charger. Good enough for x50e, not so much for any other EVs.
-Cheap NEMA plugs can cause heating and other issues.
- Chargepoint can go charging hardwired at upto 80A on a 100A breaker and correct wiring. Keep the future demand in perspective.
- A NEMA plug is going to require 6/3 wire (4 strands) while hardwired Chargepoint/Emporia can work off cheaper 6/2 (3 stands) wire. There's a significant price difference between these wires especially if you have long run to garage.

In my case I recently got a Volvo and am doing hardwired Emporia that can charge at 48A max on a 60A breaker.

There are out of context comments here. First, while it is true hardware can allow higher charging capacity, but the main component to allow that is your circuit or wire size. To get 100A, you will need 2AWG wire. This is the major material cost difference between 50A and 100A installation. Another major component of cost, bigger portion is labor. The labor cost will be the same for running 3 strand vs 4 strands.

When all things are allowed, absolutely run the largest wire for EVSE, but in reality, it is a lot more complicated. You need to consider panel size, run distance, cost, and most importantly benefit of the additional cost. 40A charging give you 32kWh for 8 hour of charging overnight. Average BEV will easily do 3.5mil/kWh, that is 100 mile worth of charging every night. How many people commute 100 everyday? The reality is not the bigger the better. You need to size according your usage.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by sk03

nema 6-50 - yes you are correct about its requirement and I was referring to 14-50.
Regarding the wire - also found out that Romex 6/3 or 6/2 is rated at 55A max but only 44A continuous. If you truly want the 60A then you have to use the individual THHN wire which can also get very expensive.

So again, as an once licensed electrician myself, the use of THHN vs romex is largely not up to individual choice. If you run wire inside drywall without conduit, you need Romex. You cannot just run THHN inside wall. If you run conduit, you need to use THHN. You cannot run Romex inside conduit. And stripping the shealth off the Romex is NOT THHN.

As for cost, they are actually very equal in normal time. Now, price fluctuate, so some time 4x THHN is more then same wire count Romex, sometime less. Now if you go large gauge, say 2AWG for 100A, I haves never seen 2AWG romes myself. With 3 or 4 wire Romex, I am not sure this wire can be run more than a 10-15 fit with a few turn. So chances are you need conduit and THHN anyway.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by couchgate

Dumb question: does the BMW Wallbox have any useful integrations with the car itself or the My BMW app? Anything value to it over a Charepoint or Juicebox?

J1772 plug doesn’t communicate with the car in today’s hardware. As to value, it is very personal. I have JuiceBox, I mainly use it for time of use charging and get credit from utility company

[jad03060]

An EVSE is a fairly dumb power cord. The only smarts related to the vehicle is its pilot signal and safety interlocks. The pilot signal tells the vehicle the max current it can provide, and the interlocks determine when it is safe to provide the power.

Some WiFi enabled EVSEs may add monitoring of the system that may be more complete than what you can get from the app, and may have a more flexible off-peak charging routine. Other than that, what you pay for are aesthetics, max power, and the length of the cable.

[fr_tz]

Is there new version of the JuiceBox? Don’t know where I saw it but saw one with a black handle on a recent purchase post. Nonetheless, very happy with our JuiceBox 40. Went with the plug in version and had the larger wire ran to upgrade in the future. Aesthetically, I think it’s one of the better ones on the market.