[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

What's really interesting to me is the delta of the new GT3 vs. the Z/28. I have the issue and there is literally 0.5 seconds between the two of them.
It's saying A LOT about how good the Z/28 is when you factor in the weight and the "antiquated" manual transmission vs. the PDK of the GT3. It's also as quick as the AMG GTS!

Although you certainly can't argue the numbers, they are only that--numbers. That GM took a camaro platform, which starts at what, a little under $30k, reached into their parts bin and used a lot of corvette-based items, and sold the resulting product for $75k is not at all a surprise. It's about as stripped out of car as a company can legally sell in the US--I believe even a radio is an option. It's not at all a surprise that any domestic brand develops something that gets similar or better numbers to something costing twice the price (or more).

But what is the sacrifice that you make in reaching those numbers? Would you rather go on a road trip in an AMG GTS or a z/28? My choice would the AMG every single time. I'm willing to be that a regular GT3 (not the RS) has just enough civility to also make it a better travel partner than the z/28. As a track rat, the Z/28 might make a better tool than the others, but when driven as street legal cars designed for track duty, the Germans usually do it a little better.

My opinions are based on my own, fairly recent, experiences. I was one of the people who read the Motor Trend article where Mr Pobst drove a then-new 2011 Mustang GT to within a tenth of a second of an e92 M3 around a track (Willow Springs, IIRC). Wow, what an achievement I thought. Several months later, I bought a 2012 Mustang GT. It was a fantastic car for a couple of years. But the sacrifices that Ford made to make the car generate great numbers at a good price started to wear on me. A few months ago, I made the move to a 2011 e92 M3. It's just such a nicer car to drive. All the things I didn't like about the mustang are addressed by the M3. It's just a much nicer car--and it should be for the price (new vs new).

If I had the means for any GT series 911 or an AMG GTS there's no way I'd buy a z/28 instead. I can respect the performance, but the details of the drive experience are more important to me.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

They just bitched about the DCT and chalked up some of the 2007's performance to the early N54's strength (realizing that the is still had an N54).
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-4

straight bullshit. there's no way that is possible. all their numbers look a little off.

[K19BMW]

Originally Posted by rjd598

straight bullshit. there's no way that is possible. all their numbers look a little off.

Ya exactly. I'm not saying they are terrible drivers (because I can't really judge them since I've never been on a track) but no way a 2007 335i w/manual should be faster than a 2012 335is w/DCT

[1MOREMOD]

What tires were on each?

[FC4]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Although you certainly can't argue the numbers, they are only that--numbers. That GM took a camaro platform, which starts at what, a little under $30k, reached into their parts bin and used a lot of corvette-based items, and sold the resulting product for $75k is not at all a surprise. It's about as stripped out of car as a company can legally sell in the US--I believe even a radio is an option. It's not at all a surprise that any domestic brand develops something that gets similar or better numbers to something costing twice the price (or more).

And what the hell do you think an M3 is? Some here have laughably optioned them out to $100K forgetting that it starts out as a $31K 320i.

[8k3]

Did the same driver test all these cars? Otherwise invalid. And a Z06 lost to a GTR Nismo via Motortrend's Randy Pobst

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by 8k3

Did the same driver test all these cars? Otherwise invalid. And a Z06 lost to a GTR Nismo via Motortrend's Randy Pobst

There was an issue with the alignment on that car. They retested it and it was quicker than the NISMO.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Although you certainly can't argue the numbers, they are only that--numbers. That GM took a camaro platform, which starts at what, a little under $30k, reached into their parts bin and used a lot of corvette-based items, and sold the resulting product for $75k is not at all a surprise. It's about as stripped out of car as a company can legally sell in the US--I believe even a radio is an option. It's not at all a surprise that any domestic brand develops something that gets similar or better numbers to something costing twice the price (or more).

But what is the sacrifice that you make in reaching those numbers? Would you rather go on a road trip in an AMG GTS or a z/28? My choice would the AMG every single time. I'm willing to be that a regular GT3 (not the RS) has just enough civility to also make it a better travel partner than the z/28. As a track rat, the Z/28 might make a better tool than the others, but when driven as street legal cars designed for track duty, the Germans usually do it a little better.

My opinions are based on my own, fairly recent, experiences. I was one of the people who read the Motor Trend article where Mr Pobst drove a then-new 2011 Mustang GT to within a tenth of a second of an e92 M3 around a track (Willow Springs, IIRC). Wow, what an achievement I thought. Several months later, I bought a 2012 Mustang GT. It was a fantastic car for a couple of years. But the sacrifices that Ford made to make the car generate great numbers at a good price started to wear on me. A few months ago, I made the move to a 2011 e92 M3. It's just such a nicer car to drive. All the things I didn't like about the mustang are addressed by the M3. It's just a much nicer car--and it should be for the price (new vs new).

If I had the means for any GT series 911 or an AMG GTS there's no way I'd buy a z/28 instead. I can respect the performance, but the details of the drive experience are more important to me.

I understand what you're saying, but this is a Lightning Lap test, not an all around test. I think you're missing the point.

The Z/28 was also chosen to be the best drivers car by Motor Trend: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...t_drivers_car/
Motor Trend also has a Z/28 for a long-term test. I encourage you to read all four updates. Not many negatives at all about the car with much more praise.

I'm not sure anyone will cross-shop a Z/28 with a GT3 or AMG GTS.
I'm also not really sure of your point for the base price of a Camaro - it's actually only $23,705, so the Z/28 (with aircon) is $52,795 more than the base car.
Have you ever priced out a 911? You can easily spend more than $50K in OPTIONS on the same performing car.
The GT3 as tested price was $162,010 or $87K more than the Z/28. The AMG GTS as tested price was $171,900 or $97K more than the Z/28. Again, for more than twice the price, they better have nicer interiors and win on the track.

Coming full circle - the Lighting Lap is just that - the quickest lap you can make in a car. Nothing else. For twice the price and all that nice interior, light weight, dual-clutch and racing heritage, I'd be upset that my car isn't really quicker (AMG GTS is actually slower). TBH, I seriously considered buying a Z/28, but family commitments changed. Friends that know me, understand this would have been a daily driver for me.
The Z/28 is what the M division used to be (the Z/28 is also 10 seconds quicker than the M4). There are Cadillac's that now out handle the M3/4.

[PrematureApex]

RE: Off times...

Not to mention the fact that quite simply, it's a different day. Track conditions can and do vary. Certain corner paved/patched, etc. can make a significant difference in times over the years.

[FC4]

The severity of track conditions, pavement, driver fatigue, if driver lapped before or after he ate lunch, additional weight of the driver's sweat weighing down his suit as the day progresses, etc., and their impact on lap times is directly proportionate to how shitty the car of any respective forum performed.

Why is no one taking into consideration less than favorable conditions for the Z06 which could have lead to more time off its lap?

[8k3]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

There was an issue with the alignment on that car. They retested it and it was quicker than the NISMO.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

Yes I'm aware, however it wasn't much faster and they commented that the car still wasn't as stable as the Nismo. That said C/D is bogus. Randy would have seen it if the Z06 was that quick

[pukicabuki]

If the BMWs posted incredible lap times then everything in this thread would be all high fives and ass slaps over how awesome BMW is.

Since the M3/M4 was slower that a slew of AMGs that can't turn and the Z28 has a radio delete option (obviously unfair) a bunch of you are all butt hurt and making a bunch of stupid excuses. Even if all the laps were timed on the same day with the same driver some of you would still find a way to complain.

Take the list for what it is, a compilation of times that they've run to show how much faster cars are getting each year. Sheesh some of you need to relax.

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by GraphiteBrawler

I cross shopped a z06 against the M3 when i bought it, since this is a summer DD for me. However I decided that depreciation being what it is on corvette's, I can buy one in a few years for so cheap it becomes a steal. The C7 is a great overall platform, let alone the Z06.

Wait, you bought a BMW because you were worried about the depreciation on the Vette? The only reason I own a BMW is because they depreciate so badly and some other sucker ate that cost for me. I'll venture to say your M3 will depreciate more quickly that the Z06.

[ASAP]

Lol... people in here are funny... never looking at things objectively.

The C63s beat the M3 around this lap by 1 second... let me tell you something absolutely crazy... the C63s has an 80 HP advantage lol... it takes that much more power to beat the M3... this is at VIR... if you've been there, check out the straights morons... if anything this is a testament to the M3s chassis.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Lol... people in here are funny... never looking at things objectively.

The C63s beat the M3 around this lap by 1 second... let me tell you something absolutely crazy... the C63s has an 80 HP advantage lol... it takes that much more power to beat the M3... this is at VIR... if you've been there, check out the straights morons... if anything this is a testament to the M3s chassis.

C63 also weighs what, 500 lbs more? All of that power is negated by the weight, and we can stop pretending the M3 isn't making a lot more power than stated.

[black-box]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

What tires were on each?

That's a frequently omitted fact. I think they should all be tested on the same, streetable tire. The pilot sport cups on the corvette would seem to be a bit of an advantage. 1.2g in a turn?

[1MOREMOD]

Doesn't the z28 come with a hot tire as well?

[See5]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Doesn't the z28 come with a hot tire as well?

Yes the Pirelli Trofeo Rs. Porsche and Ferrari have been specing Pilot Sport Cups for their cars for years and no one says anything until Chevy decided to run their version on the '12 Z06 and ZR1. All of a sudden they had an unfair advantage.

[1MOREMOD]

Didn't say it was unfair just thought I heard something about it and have no idea what ferrari uses.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Doesn't the z28 come with a hot tire as well?

And the car is tuned for the track and the tires help it but its not the end all for the car. Read about the Motortrend test with a 1LE and Z/28 tire swap.

Its a true track focused car so why the big deal if it has or hasn't near street legal tires? I would love to own one but 1) I want to drive all year round and that wouldn't be plausible here in WA; 2) not really fond of the interior of the Camaro and 3) Good ol LS7 issues just like the C6 Z06, few have reported it but I don't feel like spending another ~$3k to fix a factory issue.

Thats been the whole debate with the Z/28 having those tires. The "ZOMG! It only does so well because of the tires" excuses from exotic fan bois are very annoying. It could run on regular, run on the mill 305 All-season tires and still whoop up on cars on the road course.

[1MOREMOD]

Oh for fuck sake could you read any more into my comment. I have an e46 m3 track car not an exotic fan boy. My original comment was what tire does each have. If you track you would know a street tire is slower than an nt01 or similar by couple seconds and a slick is worth another couple on 2 minute lap. Tire matters a ton.