[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The 50e is absolutely the future. Frankly, I'm surprised that BMW has t done an M50e with the full meat B58, or even an S58 and the PHEV drivetrain. Throw all the other M performance stuff at it, you'd have a hell of a package, especially for markets outside of theUS that can't have the V8s due to government issues.

The top model for the G65 will be the M60e. The ICE and EV motor will have a combined HP of about 570.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Longist, but translating most.of that from marketing to engineering, most of it reads as "basically the same". The transmission has different shift logic. The differential may be different, would need to check part numbers. There's a different front upper control arm to increase camber. There's some.extra bracing that puts tension on parts of the chassis to increase its rigidity.

What you're seeing is really minor things. Differences, sure, but nothing huge, mainly just the normal tuning tricks a home building a car would do. I suspect you would be very hard pressed to notice a difference off of a track, other than the chassis and suspension being stiffer and less forgiving.

I was pretty much dead set on an X5MC going in. I figured if you're gonna do something, go all out. I drove the M50i on a whim, because all the reviews I saw said they'd buy the Performance version over the full M. When I drove it, I got what they were saying. I thought it was going to be too soft for me, I'm used to sports cars and hard edged stuff. I was surprised by just how good the M50i was, it outside the SQ7, it blew the Durango SRT out of the water, it made the MDX Type S look silly. Explorer ST had a great chassis and a decent powertrain but it made that look pedestrian. The M Performance team knocked it somfsr out of the park it's insane.

From the diagram, it seems to me rear subframe is already different. This is very typical for M cars. Once subframe is changed, many components needs to change. They maybe close, but they aren't the same.

Only two things are the same, right? Front subframe, and rear anti roll bar.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

The top model for the G65 will be the M60e. The ICE and EV motor will have a combined HP of about 570.

Probably a B58 variant then. Too bad, seems like this is the swan song for the V8s that people want.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

From the diagram, it seems to me rear subframe is already different. This is very typical for M cars. Once subframe is changed, many components needs to change. They maybe close, but they aren't the same.

Sure. They're "different". Slightly different mounting,, slightly revised stiff esses, etc. Stuff looks the same at a glance, but is a little different on the details. Would all bolt up with the appropriate mounts though.

We arent talking something like the 03/04 cobras where they went from solid rear axles to IRS. This is more like, a revised set of sportier components.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Probably a B58 variant then. Too bad, seems like this is the swan song for the V8s that people want.

That is correct, it is a B58 with 380hp and electric motor of 200hp. The good news is that combination will have been in the field for about three years (in the M760e and M560e) and so it shouldn't run into the problems that the 50e did.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

That is correct, it is a B58 with 380hp and electric motor of 200hp. The good news is that combination will have been in the field for about three years (in the M760e and M560e) and so it shouldn't run into the problems that the 50e did.

I'm a V8 guy. Love the sound, power, all of it. That said, if a.y brand had a 6 cylinder that justified dropping the V8, it's BMW. MB, Audi, the domestics... Yeah, take it off the list. But BMW has a strong track record with 6 cylinders, arguably better than their V8s.

That said I did eventually come around to the Ford Ecoboost, and it has been overall acceptable in our Expedition. A PHEV version of that would be better (inteat drove a powerboost f150 and the mild hybrid really helped smooth out power delivery. It wasn't fast, but it also never felt sluggish.

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The 50e is absolutely the future. Frankly, I'm surprised that BMW has t done an M50e with the full meat B58, or even an S58 and the PHEV drivetrain. Throw all the other M performance stuff at it, you'd have a hell of a package, especially for markets outside of theUS that can't have the V8s due to government issues.

They haven't because then the M60i would be completely obsolete. The M760e (380hp B58 + 200hp e-motor) is as fast as the 760i (544hp S68) while having way better fuel economy and other benefits like instant torgue. You can tell BMW is struggling to keep the V8 economically viable since they've consolidated it over the whole lineup with the S68. There's markets like NA that keep it afloat for now but in Europe for example the M60i share of X5's is tiny in most countries. To give you an idea in Germany right now there's 65 50e for sale compared to 4 M60i.

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

The top model for the G65 will be the M60e. The ICE and EV motor will have a combined HP of about 570.

By top model I presume you mean for the "non-M" cars? Because I thought it would either be another M with an electrified drivetrain like the G60 M5 gets from the X///M or a completely electric model. Either way the chief from the M GmbH already confirmed a while ago that the G80 M3/4 was the last M with a pure ICE engine.

I was actually planning to go with the hopefully finally arriving iX5 but depending on the actual specs of the M60e it might be a close one. I'm not sure though BMW will actually do the M60e since it also opted to leave the "60" to only the i5 M60 on the G60 and do a 550e instead with the drivetrain of the X5 50e but smaller battery.

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I'm a V8 guy. Love the sound, power, all of it. That said, if a.y brand had a 6 cylinder that justified dropping the V8, it's BMW. MB, Audi, the domestics... Yeah, take it off the list. But BMW has a strong track record with 6 cylinders, arguably better than their V8s.

Germans love their I6's, and for good reason as an I6 is the only type of piston arrangement that completely cancels out all the forces/torques of the first and second order without any additional balancing shafts or weights. (Aside from a V12 - Being two I6's.) Combine that running smoothness and better fuel economy with the instant torque from an electric motor and I don't see where a V8 would be better except for the sound, if you're into that.

I think the V8 will suffer the same fate as the V12 did when V8's were able to produce V12 power. The development essentially stopped and it was only being built in small quantities for the sake of being a V12 like the 65 AMG with the old 5 speed gearbox for a while and then faded away. Looking at the S58 being able to produce V8 numbers on stock internals/turbos (700hp+) with better fuel economy and less weight than a V8 I don't see a bright future for V8's.

[cobramite]

I love V8s, always have and probably always will and could care less whether Europeans favor them or not but was totally sold on the BMW S58 I6 when I drove an M4 Comp not to long ago. Absolutely awesome, wicked car.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

By top model I presume you mean for the "non-M" cars? Because I thought it would either be another M with an electrified drivetrain like the G60 M5 gets from the X///M or a completely electric model. Either way the chief from the M GmbH already confirmed a while ago that the G80 M3/4 was the last M with a pure ICE engine.

I was actually planning to go with the hopefully finally arriving iX5 but depending on the actual specs of the M60e it might be a close one. I'm not sure though BMW will actually do the M60e since it also opted to leave the "60" to only the i5 M60 on the G60 and do a 550e instead with the drivetrain of the X5 50e but smaller battery.

As I noted, the top model for the G65 will be the M60e. The X5M is currently an F95 and the next generation will be the F95.

Looks like you have some bad information. They are using the M 60e moniker for the top model PHEV models for the G60 and G70 with the M560e and M760e. That is the drivetrain that will be in the X5 M60e.

[SwissBeemer]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

The X5M is currently an F95 and the next generation will be the F95.

Typo?!

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Looks like you have some bad information. They are using the M 60e moniker for the top model PHEV models for the G60 and G70 with the M560e and M760e. That is the drivetrain that will be in the X5 M60e.

In fact I don't have any information at all, hence my question. Just figured the 7-series is available as 750e and M760e so BMW will probably indeed release two models that are so closely related. But I've also just read that the iX5 should be available as iX 50 and M70, so the M70 will probably be the successor for my 50e then.

[BlkGS]

The problem with losing V8s and v12s is less tondo with output, and more to do with desires. Nobody buys a 7 series as a choice based on needs. You buy it because it's an emotional splurge. If your splurge doesn't feel more special, why splurge?

People don't like being forced into a downsized motor. People buying a $100k vehicle can and will eat the fuel cost for a better experience. The automakers are all learning that Americans won't pay more for products that feel objectively less.

Dropping the v12 was a mistake for BMW. Dropping the V8 would be an even bigger mistake. Look at the utter failure of the new C63. It makes big power, but it's a total colossal failure because they didn't get that buyers don't want a turbo 4 and an electric motor, regardless of how fast it is. They want the big V8 making rowdy sounds. All the electric vehicles (except for the very cheap priced Teslas) are failing too, because it's not what consumers want. Automakers are learning the hard way they service the market, consumers set demand. They have been thinking they can set the market with what they offer, and it's a failing proposition.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

Germans love their I6's, and for good reason as an I6 is the only type of piston arrangement that completely cancels out all the forces/torques of the first and second order without any additional balancing shafts or weights. (Aside from a V12 - Being two I6's.) Combine that running smoothness and better fuel economy with the instant torque from an electric motor and I don't see where a V8 would be better except for the sound, if you're into that.

Wait not so fast. In-line6 inherently balance is only thr pistons. Other rotational components still need counter weight, such as crank and cam. Another type of engine they is inherently balanced piston movement is boxer, both 4 (Subaru) and 6 (Porsche).

Now in practice, the technique of balancing piston is mature. Everyone knows how to do it (maybe except bmw with their n20). You see many high rev, 8000+ engines are inline4, v8, v10. The balance talk is abut over blown. The real advantage of inline configuration is really cost of manufacturing: One head, one set of valav chain, one set of cam, one intake exhaust manifold, one set of cat, o2 management, …. 2x of all of these on a V. The disadvantage is packaging. Block is long, basically eliminating the possibility of FWD. I also think the recent adaptation of inline 6 by MB and Mazda is about the simple turbo implementation

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Wait not so fast. In-line6 inherently balance is only thr pistons. Other rotational components still need counter weight, such as crank and cam. Another type of engine they is inherently balanced piston movement is boxer, both 4 (Subaru) and 6 (Porsche).

Now in practice, the technique of balancing piston is mature. Everyone knows how to do it (maybe except bmw with their n20). You see many high rev, 8000+ engines are inline4, v8, v10. The balance talk is abut over blown. The real advantage of inline configuration is really cost of manufacturing: One head, one set of valav chain, one set of cam, one intake exhaust manifold, one set of cat, o2 management, …. 2x of all of these on a V. The disadvantage is packaging. Block is long, basically eliminating the possibility of FWD. I also think the recent adaptation of inline 6 by MB and Mazda is about the simple turbo implementation

Absolutely, and that am inline 6 shares packaging advantages with a V8. If you have the space for an I6, you can fit a V8, as long as it's not some monstrously wide design. But most modern cars are super wide anyways.

That's a big reason Stellantis is switching to an I6, it leaves the door.open for them to pivot back to a V8 if sales don't meet expectations.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

Typo?!



In fact I don't have any information at all, hence my question. Just figured the 7-series is available as 750e and M760e so BMW will probably indeed release two models that are so closely related. But I've also just read that the iX5 should be available as iX 50 and M70, so the M70 will probably be the successor for my 50e then.

Yes, G95

I was referring to what you posted regarding the G60 not having an M60e.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Absolutely, and that am inline 6 shares packaging advantages with a V8. If you have the space for an I6, you can fit a V8, as long as it's not some monstrously wide design. But most modern cars are super wide anyways.

Yep, if inline6 fit V8 will fit. Plenty of e46 have LS retrofit into it. Monster track car. Will give M3 a run for the money. Will even smoke x5m after 5 laps. Lol.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I would absolutely disagree. The M to M60 is a fairly modest set of changes. The 50e to M60 is a completely different drivetrain, completely different character, they're worlds apart.

The M60i certainly is more like an X5M than it is a 50e. To say the opposite is insanity. The M60i is so close to the X5M that they literally killed off the X5M (at least for the US), and only make X5MCs now, because the M60i and X5M overlap too much.

This is absolutely spot on.
The M60i is showing identical acceleration(0-60) as the pre LCI X5M @ 3.5 seconds. This test was also done at a horrible 6,000 ft DA which would reduce the turbocharged M60i's power by 9%(18% for a NA motor).
Obviously there is a huge difference in acceleration between the M60i and 50e and not a "very close" comparisson as some guys here would like to believe.
3.3 is a real possibelity at sea level in good air.

[matowi]

Question is if acceleration times are a good measure of the actual technical differences between the M and the M60i

From this thread (and others) I take away that there’s a number of changes across the entire underbody (subframes), suspension components, gearbox, x-drive, engine and turbos, body frame bracing, exhaust, etc

They may be minor when viewed in isolation (a tweak here and there), but add up to a difference making the entire package rather significantly different in overall feel (rigidity, stiffness). What’s „big” to some may be „negligible” to others

[roamio]

Numbers are awesome (and make me happy as M60i owner) but let's not kid ourselves - M is not simply higher HP and TRQ numbers. Handling, steering, cooling, exhaust and so on. Extra 25-30 thousand for "M" get you much more than simply drag race numbers.

Still smiling looking at numbers.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by matowi

Question is if acceleration times are a good measure of the actual technical differences between the M and the M60i

From this thread (and others) I take away that there’s a number of changes across the entire underbody (subframes), suspension components, gearbox, x-drive, engine and turbos, body frame bracing, exhaust, etc

They may be minor when viewed in isolation (a tweak here and there), but add up to a difference making the entire package rather significantly different in overall feel (rigidity, stiffness). What’s „big” to some may be „negligible” to others

I'm a big "driving engagement" guy. I think that electrification has make acceleration a sort of pointless measure. You can get Kias in the 4 seconds range, let alone the cheap garbage Teslas. It's no longer special to hit 60 really fast, what's special is building a compelling product that pulls you in and makes you want to drive and enjoy it.

The problem is that engagement and fun often go down as max performance goes up. At some point you're making the ride too stiff for max g forces, the grip becomes too much to be fun, you end up with a car that is so capable, it's not fun at normal speeds, around town, etc. The most fun car I've ever driven was a 2013 Mustang Boss 302. It wasn't the fastest car, but it was loud, had super short gears, and just wanted to do burnouts and be sideways. The most fun car I've ever owned was an R53 Mini Cooper, the supercharged one. It was not fast, and didn't even handle that amazing. But it felt quick, was super light on its feet, and was a blast to drive everywhere because it had a ton of character and transmitted all the feelings to you. Stomp the gas and IT FELT like you were accelerating hard, you weren't, but it made you feel like you were. Go around a turn and it felt like it was glued to the road and you were driving like a hero, in truth you were only going slightly above normal speeds, but it felt.like you were a race car driver.

All this to say, I don't know that the extras of the full M make it better. The majority of reviewers don't seem to think so, and some of them even go so far as to say that the difference is so small that the only reason to go full M is if you just want to show that you spent the extra money. I think that's probably a bit of a stretch, but I bet a good driver in a M50 or M60 could beat an average driver in a full M around a track.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I'm a big "driving engagement" guy. I think that electrification has make acceleration a sort of pointless measure. You can get Kias in the 4 seconds range, let alone the cheap garbage Teslas. It's no longer special to hit 60 really fast, what's special is building a compelling product that pulls you in and makes you want to drive and enjoy it.

Totally agreed. Once we reached a point where my crew cab pickup and DD family X5 were quicker than my Porsche 911, I stopped thinking much about sheer acceleration.

Pretty sure both of my current BMWs have launch control, but I've never tried it.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

Totally agreed. Once we reached a point where my crew cab pickup and DD family X5 were quicker than my Porsche 911, I stopped thinking much about sheer acceleration.

Pretty sure both of my current BMWs have launch control, but I've never tried it.

Yeah, looks like the M60i is a tick faster than a C6 Z06 and not far off the mark of a C7 Z06 at least to 60, crazy for a 5300 lb SUV to be in the middle of that pair.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

II think that's probably a bit of a stretch, but I bet a good driver in a M50 or M60 could beat an average driver in a full M around a track.

Likely is a stretch depending on the course and the drivers. Look at the cars that the current X5M has outdone in the Lightning Lap. It is an SUV that handles better than many cars you would think would blow it away.