[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

Uh no. You can clearly see the electric assist in all modes even sport. 50e here, if you toggle tbe button on the end of the turn signal stock, you can see how many Kw are recovered and how many are provided continously. I am getting 27-29 mpg on the highway after using the main charge up. Remember there is always a reserve base amount when it shows zero charge. Yes it weighs more but that seems to be more than offset by increased regen and the miller cycle redesign of the ice. Extra, electric power this year also equals greater regen capabilities.

It is available, but it is isn't happen often. Occurrences is very rear. after a 200 mile drive in sport, how many eDrive mile do you register? I bet less than 5. eAssist reallly only kick in when load is increase at low rpm, usually right before down shift, for less than 5 second. This is real life obervation with 45e. To even get eAssist in sport, I need to purpose make that happen. In most road trip, except for maybe up to the mountain, eDrive mile register is less than 1 in sport mode.

[chrisado]

That is because in soort mode it builds a bit more of a reserve over base due to the likelyhood of heavier accelleration etc. whatever charge level it is at (5 or 6) it is constantly drawing down and readding the charge to maintain a baseline. Battery hold does the same thing. If you coukd drive on a perfectly flat highway and never change your speed, you would be more correct but wven then, aerodynamics would pkay a much bigger role in fuel economy than weight. Weight is a big factor on accelleration.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

That is because in soort mode it builds a bit more of a reserve over base due to the likelyhood of heavier accelleration etc. whatever charge level it is at (5 or 6) it is constantly drawing down and readding the charge to maintain a baseline. Battery hold does the same thing. If you coukd drive on a perfectly flat highway and never change your speed, you would be more correct but wven then, aerodynamics would pkay a much bigger role in fuel economy than weight. Weight is a big factor on accelleration.

First, constant for nearly constant speed on highway, where do you get regen? The consumption of kWh is not just for driving, but for the rest of the electrical as well. If eAssist happens, meaning both EV and ICE are driving, the EDrive miles get registered. My question is, after a long road trip in sport, how many eDrive mile do you see? this is how many mile eAssist has help. Only if eAssist portion is significant of the total mile, it helps ICE MPG. If eAssist portion is 1%, which likely it is it hardly affect ICE MPG at all.

And no, Battery hold is very different that sport. Battery hold allows ICE to be off and car driven by eDrive. Sport mode really doesn't do that. There are very unqiue condition where even in sport mode, ICE is off, but it is extreme rare. In my experience, it usually involves a very step slope down hill where speed is no more than 5-10mph.

[chrisado]

There is no such thing as perfectly flat constant condions. It is always going to vary to a greater or lesser degree.

Explain to me how the dozens of 50e owners are achieving the same mpg as I am. I haven’t seen anyone claim this kind of mileage from a 40i so why is that? Are 50e owners fabricating this?

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

First, constant for nearly constant speed on highway, where do you get regen? The consumption of kWh is not just for driving, but for the rest of the electrical as well. If eAssist happens, meaning both EV and ICE are driving, the EDrive miles get registered. My question is, after a long road trip in sport, how many eDrive mile do you see? this is how many mile eAssist has help. Only if eAssist portion is significant of the total mile, it helps ICE MPG. If eAssist portion is 1%, which likely it is it hardly affect ICE MPG at all..

As I said yesterday, I'm just getting into this but I thought the eDrive miles (the ones we were using yesterday in the calculations) were the miles that were driven just by the EV motor. Is that not the case?

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

There is no such thing as perfectly flat constant condions. It is always going to vary to a greater or lesser degree.

Explain to me how the dozens of 50e owners are achieving the same mpg as I am. I haven’t seen anyone claim this kind of mileage from a 40i so why is that? Are 50e owners fabricating this?

Even with slight up and down, slow down and speed increase, eAssit doesn't really happen often. So please do this and let me know the result, on your next long trip, drive in sport mode. After that, see how many eDrive miles are there. This the eAssist miles for the whole trip. Also energy flow diagram show eAssist occurance. Watch that for a trip and see how often that happens and the duration of each occurance.

27-29MPG after HVB deplete is great, but not unreasonable. My 45e can do 28 in my best day. I am not sure 40i owner get worst mpg on highway. And I am not sure everyone with 50e get 29MPG. Over the year, I have ask people to share trip computer screen with me, on average I would say 40i is 10% better than 45e. If you don't mind, share the since factory screen with me, we can do a apple to apple comparison with 45e average number

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

As I said yesterday, I'm just getting into this but I thought the eDrive miles (the ones we were using yesterday in the calculations) were the miles that were driven just by the EV motor. Is that not the case?

It is largely the case. My best understanding is if Edrive motor is engaged, the eDrive mile get counted. Majority will be in Electric mode or hybrid in eDrive, it also registered if ICE and eDrive engage together (eAssist). Reason I say that is, usually after a very long drive in sport mode, I see a bit of eDrive miles. For example, Mountain View to Tahoe, about 230 miles with a good uphill portion, I will see 0.5 eDrive miles. I am very sure entire drive was in sport with ICE on. So the only place it can come from is eAssist. I cannot think of another reason.

[Francolargo]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

The thing is, when considering the highway mileage of a regular hybrid vehicle, the ‘hybrid’ part becomes an albatross because the ICE is essentially powering the vehicle the whole time but you’re still saddled with 800 extra lbs of battery and EV parts.

The "800 extra lbs" clearly shows that you're referring to the PHEV. But your description of the ICE's role would seem to apply more to a 'mild hybrid' and that includes every new X5 and X6. I assume switching to the mild hybrid system allows BMW to use the same type of transmission across all models - one that replaces the torque converter with a efficient low speed/high torque electric means to get rolling (plus clutch), and also adds a small amount of torque boost when called-for. In the PHEV, the ICE is maybe 'de-tuned' relative to the mild hybrids, but more efficient. Then the tranny gets a much bigger and higher voltage electric motor, which participates more during normal driving. Is the "800 pounds" of electric 'stuff' really an albatross? I think the economy numbers speak for themselves. And the fun is still there. If you're at 80 and don't like a situation or driver around you, when you goose it with the electric boost you're gone and the low hundos feel like nothing. No albatross under the seats as far as I can tell!

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

It is largely the case. My best understanding is if Edrive motor is engaged, the eDrive mile get counted. Majority will be in Electric mode or hybrid in eDrive, it also registered if ICE and eDrive engage together (eAssist). Reason I say that is, usually after a very long drive in sport mode, I see a bit of eDrive miles. For example, Mountain View to Tahoe, about 230 miles with a good uphill portion, I will see 0.5 eDrive miles. I am very sure entire drive was in sport with ICE on. So the only place it can come from is eAssist. I cannot think of another reason.

If that is the case then it will make the calculations we did yesterday show a higher MPG than actually occurred, wouldn't it?

While we are asking questions, what is the difference between eAssist and eBoost?

[chrisado]

I do a 300 mile roundtrip every month or two. On the way back, I have zero miles of electric showing since I cant plug in. Next time, ill take a screen shot. Try toggling the end of the turn signL stalk - it will show you in the instrument cluster the plus or minus kwh/mile(or whatever units you choose) while driving. The miles remaining of electric range doesnt tell the story because it is trying to maintain and balance that amount in battery hold or sport mode. It will still add miles if you go down a long hill because it isnt going waste that energy but it will then start to use it until you get back to base of zero or (5 ish in sport) or whatever range u activated battery hold.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Francolargo

The "800 extra lbs" clearly shows that you're referring to the PHEV. But your description of the ICE's role would seem to apply more to a 'mild hybrid' and that includes every new X5 and X6. I assume switching to the mild hybrid system allows BMW to use the same type of transmission across all models - one that replaces the torque converter with a efficient low speed/high torque electric means to get rolling (plus clutch), and also adds a small amount of torque boost when called-for. In the PHEV, the ICE is maybe 'de-tuned' relative to the mild hybrids, but more efficient. Then the tranny gets a much bigger and higher voltage electric motor, which participates more during normal driving. Is the "800 pounds" of electric 'stuff' really an albatross? I think the economy numbers speak for themselves. And the fun is still there. If you're at 80 and don't like a situation or driver around you, when you goose it with the electric boost you're gone and the low hundos feel like nothing. No albatross under the seats as far as I can tell!

The de-tune argument doesn't stand for highway crusing at all. The de-turn is the peak power. Cruising down highway, the amount of power needed is largely the same, which is the air resistance. In perfectly flat and perfectly constant speed, weight doesn't play a role. But with any change of elevation or speed, weight pay a proportional role. Speeding up a car, then recapture energy by regen, the net is negative. I think if nothing else, the 7.5% gear deficit also hurt 50e.

I wonder if anyone think BMW EPA number actually mean something. It is as much of an apple to apple comparison as it can be. For those who live by BMW literature, this should the the gold standard.

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

If that is the case then it will make the calculations we did yesterday show a higher MPG than actually occurred, wouldn't it?

While we are asking questions, what is the difference between eAssist and eBoost?

It is technically it. But at least from what I have seen in my 45e, the amount if eAssist is very small compare to the total miles driven. Meaning the miles where both motors are driving the car, is minimal. so in grant scheme, it doesn't change much.

eAssist vs eBoost, I think the best person to answer is nZtiZia . My understanding is, most of what we encounter, low to medium throttle input, low to mid RPM, it is all eAssist. eBoost occurs when we operate engine in high RPM and max acceleration situtation. I have never seen or notice eBoost in my usage.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by chrisado

There is no such thing as perfectly flat constant condions. It is always going to vary to a greater or lesser degree.

Explain to me how the dozens of 50e owners are achieving the same mpg as I am. I haven’t seen anyone claim this kind of mileage from a 40i so why is that? Are 50e owners fabricating this?

It would probably help to see the details. What formula do you use to calculate the MPG?

[chrisado]

It does combine both when calculating the mpg which scews it but I am calculating this by how much gas it takes to fill it up and actual miles covered or alternatively goi g by the mpg shown if I started with zero miles charge (there is always some amount of charge - we dont know the split).

If you use up ‘the charge’ then it act like a normal hybrid which is also much more efficient than non hybrids. The only issue with the 40i is that the e-assist consists of a small battery and small electric motor so it is not capable of collecting near as much energy on decelleration. Plus the engine itself is tuned for better performance and therefore not as efficient as the 50e - it will still be better than not having mild hybrid properties

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

I do a 300 mile roundtrip every month or two. On the way back, I have zero miles of electric showing since I cant plug in. Next time, ill take a screen shot. Try toggling the end of the turn signL stalk - it will show you in the instrument cluster the plus or minus kwh/mile(or whatever units you choose) while driving. The miles remaining of electric range doesnt tell the story because it is trying to maintain and balance that amount in battery hold or sport mode. It will still add miles if you go down a long hill because it isnt going waste that energy but it will then start to use it until you get back to base of zero or (5 ish in sport) or whatever range u activated battery hold.

I think this doesn't exist in 45e, we only see enery flow and eAssist or eBoost in iDrive screen when it happen. We don't see actual kW or kWh number. But let me double check.

For regen in highway speed, in my experience, it is super mild at high speed. The car try to not regen and coast, which is the most energy efficient. Regen strength if you will, increase significantly at slow speed. I recent went down this steep down hill stretchy, only 2 miles, max speed was less the 5MPH, mostly 2-3MPH, sport mode, but ICE was off, foot modulate brake 100% of time. I recovered 20% (of 16kWh) just like this.

Originally Posted by chrisado

If you use up ‘the charge’ then it act like a normal hybrid which is also much more efficient than non hybrids. The only issue with the 40i is that the e-assist consists of a small battery and small electric motor so it is not capable of collecting near as much energy on decelleration. Plus the engine itself is tuned for better performance and therefore not as efficient as the 50e - it will still be better than not having mild hybrid properties

These parts are where I cannot agree.

HEV (non plug in), they have small battery, ~2kWh. That is all they need to gain overall efficiency. Over weight will be much less. When you operate PHEV as HEV, 50e in this case, 18kWh is just dead weight. So PHEV as HEV will be less efficient than a real HEV. Weight does matters.

As for detune engine, I explained above. The peak detune. Under the same usage, the output is needed. I would say there is no efficiency different at all, just lower RPM, torque comes a bit earlier, so less HP

[Aussiejem]

As RichardE states, I will love the 50e for around town (up to 60kms per day for one charge) and flexibility of the Hybrid mode for longer distances out of town for a reasonable 8L/100kms approx. Solar smashing through our Tesla battery to replenish makes it perfect for our lifestyle. I have the Tesla Y covered for charge point in garage, now just need to find best type of charge point for the incoming 50e....

I had a chipped B7 RS4 (331kw) years ago and thought it was amazingly good, but to think the 50e out powers that is just amazing tech wise...

[chrisado]

Exactly and that 20% gets fed back in along with power from the ice which is where the gain happens. A regular ice car throws this energy away in the form of heat from braking. You often can’t feel the regen or boost at all as it is stphoned in and out as needed to maintain base charge or in the case of having miles of ‘plug in’ charge will use more of it proportionally that to advantage.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

Exactly and that 20% gets fed back in along with power from the ice which is where the gain happens. A regular ice car throws this energy away in the form of heat from braking. You often can’t feel the regen or boost at all as it is stphoned in and out as needed to maintain base charge or in the case of having miles of ‘plug in’ charge will use more of it proportionally that to advantage.

This is a extreme limit usage. I want to show you that slow speed is where regen is strong. In fact, this short cut, not too many knows. Local knows, tourists will take the 120 above. If all your drive is this, then sure PHEV it is. Maybe even just BEV. Highway cruising, you don't even get more than 2-3% for a 2 hour drives.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by chrisado

It does combine both when calculating the mpg which scews it but I am calculating this by how much gas it takes to fill it up and actual miles covered or alternatively goi g by the mpg shown if I started with zero miles charge (there is always some amount of charge - we dont know the split).

If you use up ‘the charge’ then it act like a normal hybrid which is also much more efficient than non hybrids. The only issue with the 40i is that the e-assist consists of a small battery and small electric motor so it is not capable of collecting near as much energy on decelleration. Plus the engine itself is tuned for better performance and therefore not as efficient as the 50e - it will still be better than not having mild hybrid properties

Good, I would think as long as one is consistent with the fill up that would be the most accurate way.

It bothers me (too many years preaching/making sure data being shown was accurate and meant what it was supposed to mean) that BMW is not showing the actual/accurate values for the gas MPG and mileage. Showing an MPG that includes mileage from the EV motor may be good for marketing but it is not really a number that can be compared against anything.

[chrisado]

Yes and previous bmw’s I have had (reg ice) never seemed to achieve the mpg indicated. This one thouvh seems to be bang on which is a nice surprise

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by chrisado

Yes and previous bmw’s I have had (reg ice) never seemed to achieve the mpg indicated. This one thouvh seems to be bang on which is a nice surprise

Mind share the since factory trip computer screen? I have about 5-6 50e data. I have about 40x 45e data share from member here as well. Just want to compare the differences.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Mind share the since factory trip computer screen? I have about 5-6 50e data. I have about 40x 45e data share from member here as well. Just want to compare the differences.

Granted it is generally statistical heresy to do so but what is the average of the MPG's you calculated for those 50e's?

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Granted it is generally statistical heresy to do so but what is the average of the MPG's you calculated for those 50e's?

This is what I have so far. I have one more I will need to put in. Red box is MPG. Green is mi/kWh.

As you said, the mi/kWh should be more accurate, because it is total eDrive mile /total kWh used in this calculation. Assumption is eAssist mile is minimal. the kWh used also included regen kWh. The MPG is exactly as you said, it is pessimistic number, because this number didn't account for regen, because regen kWh get counted toward mi/kWh.