[iconoclast]

Originally Posted by TXSchnee

My Cayenne uses the same ZF 8 speed transmission and there is a fairly easy way to put the vehicle in Neutral if need be. Not sure why BMW couldn't do the same.

Land Rover uses a similar method with a release under the center cup holder.

[Frenetic]

Yeah, my Audi S7 was equally easy to unlock the transmission in the interior of the car. Behind a plastic panel door in the center console ("ashtray," which is now just storage) was the unlock mechanism. It took 30 seconds to access it and unlock the transmission.

Either BMW engineers aren't thinking about "what ifs," or they do and just don't care. Both scenarios are pretty sad...

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by MystroX5

My philosophy is just wait and let the dealer do it at your yearly oil change.

You maybe lucky that your dealer would do software update by request, for free.
Our dealership won't do that. They would only do software update if there is an error, to fix something, or needed by service bulletin or recall.

Definitely not during routine oil change.

[BobsM3Coupe]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

When it comes to electric and hybrid vehicles, there often isn't a correlation between high customer satisfaction and lack of problems. The satisfaction is largely based on ideology, politics, beliefs, causes, etc. I will have to see if I can find the article I read about it a few months ago.

Exactly. Even people with Tesla's that have had many problems with them, they will still defend them to death.
Crazy but true.

[mitch57]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

You maybe lucky that your dealer would do software update by request, for free.
Our dealership won't do that. They would only do software update if there is an error, to fix something, or needed by service bulletin or recall.

Definitely not during routine oil change.

No problem! BMW has so many damn Technical Service Bulletins there should be no problem in finding one that would require them to perform an update. Many of them are not easily duplicated so all you have to do is tell them you are having that problem and they are pretty much forced to do the update while the car is under warranty. I've done that several times with mine.

The reason your dealer won't update the software for free is because they don't get reimbursed from BMW unless their is an issue/Service Bulletin that is fixable via a firmware/software update which is covered under warranty.

[zhangyi17]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

The BMW tech came to the house. He was able to get the X5 in neutral after spending almost an hour under the car. He said the G05 is harder than the previous gen X5 because of the design of the lever to manually move the gear from Park to Neutral.

He had to remove the splash cover first and then the plate that covers the mechanical lever. What a pain.

I asked him how often he has to go to out and do this. He said, every once in awhile..

So, the X5 is in neutral and ready for the flatbed.

Now all we have left is actually getting the X5 software updated and running again. I'm confident that it will go smoothly.

Thank you for letting us know.

Lesson learned for me: no more OTA by myself. From now on, always do OTA update when car is in for service appointment.


Come on BMW/ZF, get your act together!

[MystroX5]

Originally Posted by mitch57

No problem! BMW has so many damn Technical Service Bulletins there should be no problem in finding one that would require them to perform an update. Many of them are not easily duplicated so all you have to do is tell them you are having that problem and they are pretty much forced to do the update while the car is under warranty. I've done that several times with mine.

The reason your dealer won't update the software for free is because they don't get reimbursed from BMW unless their is an issue/Service Bulletin that is fixable via a firmware/software update which is covered under warranty.

This is what separates the good dealers that want to accommodate their customers and foster a good relationship for repeat business. My dealership picks up my vehicles and drops them off. They don’t get paid for that but it’s all part of the luxury accommodations I expect with the entire lifestyle of the brand. I actually sat down the general manager of the dealership before I made my very first purchase and let them know my expectations regarding loaner cars, etc... They couldn’t have been any more understanding and accommodating.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

You maybe lucky that your dealer would do software update by request, for free. Our dealership won't do that.

did they say why? maybe a way to make money? the liability is there whether or not it's paid for.

my SA updated my iStep (albeit minor... 11/2020.38 to 11/2020.64) when I brought mine in to fix a camera misalignment. the update was likely done as part of the service call.

[rmorin1249]

Glad to hear your dealer did the right thing and sent a tech to your house. Still incredible that BMW designed this problem into the vehicle. IMO it's an engineering mistake.

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by MystroX5

This is what separates the good dealers that want to accommodate their customers and foster a good relationship for repeat business. My dealership picks up my vehicles and drops them off. They don’t get paid for that but it’s all part of the luxury accommodations I expect with the entire lifestyle of the brand. I actually sat down the general manager of the dealership before I made my very first purchase and let them know my expectations regarding loaner cars, etc... They couldn’t have been any more understanding and accommodating.

I wish I had your dealer here in my area, I would buy more BMW's if I did Buying the car is the easy part, living with it and any maintenance required is the hard part and where your dealer really makes the difference.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Marty in NY

I wish I had your dealer here in my area, I would buy more BMW's if I did Buying the car is the easy part, living with it and any maintenance required is the hard part and where your dealer really makes the difference.

Generally, my local dealer has been great over the years. I bought my first BMW in 1988, a beautiful, '88 E28 528e with 5 speed MT. With over 30 years as a customer, they have always done the right thing in the rare case that I have had a problem. I feel fortunate indeed.

[biterror]

Originally Posted by Marty in NY

It would be good if the OTA had a failure checksum that if failed, it simply put the software back where it was before attempting the update.

I'm sure the update file has a checksum and if it doesn't match, the update is not started at all. The update file probably contains firmware for 30 or more control units that are located in different places in the car. The firmware update is probably pushed to the units over CAN and/or other buses. I believe in the bricked cars updating one or more control units has failed and the system can't recover from this automatically.

This should not be a fatal condition. All control units should have a separate bootloader which is never corrupted or erased and which can download the operating firmware over the bus again. At least that's how it should be.

The control units probably have small microcontrollers and not enough memory to hold several firmware versions, so they can't simply switch to the previous version after a failed update. And/or the different versions might not be compatible with the other control units, running a different version.

The cars are pretty complex these days, but if you design the electronic hardware and software properly from the start, you can make it pretty foolproof. Have one design flaw or bug in a critical place - and the car is bricked.

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by biterror

I'm sure the update file has a checksum and if it doesn't match, the update is not started at all. The update file probably contains firmware for 30 or more control units that are located in different places in the car. The firmware update is probably pushed to the units over CAN and/or other buses. I believe in the bricked cars updating one or more control units has failed and the system can't recover from this automatically.

This should not be a fatal condition. All control units should have a separate bootloader which is never corrupted or erased and which can download the operating firmware over the bus again. At least that's how it should be.

The control units probably have small microcontrollers and not enough memory to hold several firmware versions, so they can't simply switch to the previous version after a failed update. And/or the different versions might not be compatible with the other control units, running a different version.

The cars are pretty complex these days, but if you design the electronic hardware and software properly from the start, you can make it pretty foolproof. Have one design flaw or bug in a critical place - and the car is bricked.

You're probably right!

The sad part is we will probably never know what really happened to cause the bricking. The dealer will just hook it up, get it working and hand the car back to the owner. Even if the owner asks for the root cause, I doubt the dealer would know it I hope I'm wrong, it makes it hard to learn when you don't know what went wrong and why. OTA is a marketed and cool feature and now we have owners leery of using it due to this.

[jad03060]

BMW uses some of the same modules in more than one model line, and they get programmed for their specific functionality once installed.

I don't think that they have all that much memory in them. Also, while with a vehicle it shouldn't be an issue with modern chips, but NVM does tend to have a write limit. The firmware isn't updated all that often, so they should easily last the lifetime of the vehicle.

Now, the HD in the vehicle should be able to hold the whole firmware update, as it's large enough to hold a full map update, and I'm guessing that is larger, so once in the vehicle, IF the module can still 'talk' to the main controller, it should be able to try again. Lots of ifs, as we don't know the details of even the operating system or full interconnectivity in the vehicles.

Hackers get more sophisticated every day, and having one get into our vehicle has the potential to be catastrophic, so there's a limit on how much can be done from remote. As a result, if something goes wonky, I'm not surprised they need a physical connection to do things and put it right.

Just ensure your vehicle will have access when you perform an update, and if you're the unfortunate one where something does go astray, it can be dealt with without all of the trauma shown in this thread. And, read the release notes before you do it and follow the instructions about when it's safe to exit and lock the vehicle if you're not going to sit in there.

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by zhangyi17

Thank you for letting us know.

Lesson learned for me: no more OTA by myself. From now on, always do OTA update when car is in for service appointment.


Come on BMW/ZF, get your act together!

Other vehicles with the same ZF 8speed transmissions have fairly easy work arounds to put the car in Neutral. This is entirely a BMW thing.

[mitch57]

Originally Posted by MystroX5

This is what separates the good dealers that want to accommodate their customers and foster a good relationship for repeat business. My dealership picks up my vehicles and drops them off. They don’t get paid for that but it’s all part of the luxury accommodations I expect with the entire lifestyle of the brand. I actually sat down the general manager of the dealership before I made my very first purchase and let them know my expectations regarding loaner cars, etc... They couldn’t have been any more understanding and accommodating.

My dealer is 110 miles from my house. They drove to my house to adjust my wiper arms free of charge. I didn't even ask for the service. They offered it to me as an option. I would call that great customer service!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe

Exactly. Even people with Tesla's that have had many problems with them, they will still defend them to death.
Crazy but true.

Because everything has pros and cons. I love how when one runs out of reasons it is down to political belief. No one like like a Tesla because the owners are all disillusioned morons. LOL. As a BMW and Tesla owner, I can honestly say that owning a Tesla is a joy. It drives well and will almost certainly buy another - which is what the survey asks. Has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the car ownership experience.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Because everything has pros and cons. I love how when one runs out of reasons it is down to political belief. No one like like a Tesla because the owners are all disillusioned morons. LOL. As a BMW and Tesla owner, I can honestly say that owning a Tesla is a joy. It drives well and will almost certainly buy another - which is what the survey asks. Has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the car ownership experience.

I'm a BMW person. I cross shop but always seem to end up with a BMW. That said, my son has a Tesla 3 dual motor and my best friend has a Tesla 3 and a Tesla Y. I've got lots of miles in these Teslas, both as a passenger and as a driver. They are truly amazing cars. There are some refinement issues, but overall it is a great experience. I'm thinking seriously about getting a Tesla or another EV as my next car. Sometimes I wonder if some people who complain about Teslas have ever driven one.

[jad03060]

Many of the EVs that are out there today first, don't have all that big of a battery, and second, don't have all that big of a motor. Tesla has both. Coming from an ICE, the performance is kind of a big surprise. Then, throw in the first adaptors that have to have the newest thing and add in the green crowd that wants to show their creds, and when you throw in the supercharger network that was 'free' for owners at the beginning, and you have a dedicated audience. Some of the EVs coming out today will have it all over Tesla in build quality and will be able to match them on many other aspects. Being first has its advantages, but seeing exactly what people will buy, and what they really want does, too. So, I don't fault the mainstream car companies for their chosen path.

The next 2-3 years, Tesla will have their dominance stressed. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm not impressed with their build quality, or the concept of that one large, central display. I prefer things more like how BMW has done it on most of their vehicles, where some critical things still have their own buttons which are easier to hit, less distracting to drill down through menus, and less likely to drag your attention away from actually driving.

While the Tesla technique of thousands of small cells has some merits, anyone in manufacturing realizes the more parts involved, the more chances of failure, and the more cost to build it. Tesla is moving towards larger cells, but there still will be thousands, versus the less than 200 in say the X5 45e, and those are contained in 12 easily replaceable modules, so if one goes bad, you don't have to replace the whole thing.

Starting with a clean slate from the model S onwards gives them a chance to make their own path with their own priorities whereas, the typical established company can be more confined. But, BMW did allow their engineers a pretty much free path with the i3 and i8, but they never intended either of those models to be particularly mainstream...they used them to perfect some new build methods and introduce new materials. They never were designed for mass production. But, the knowledge gained is being used throughout their models as they get updated. Prior to the i3, it took a couple of days to cure a CF piece...now, they can lay it up and once the materials are laid out, have it fully cured in minutes. The roof on the i3 is made from scraps when building the vehicle tub, the fiber is made next to hydro generation plants, so green power can be used as it's extensive when doing this sort of thing, and the list goes on. That sort of tech is something Tesla doesn't have a chance to develop because of the costs involved, but BMW is at least a generation or two ahead of everyone else in the industry on that aspect...CF where it makes sense for strength and weight, conventional materials that they've been building with for decades, and you can end up with a lighter, stronger vehicle.

ANyway, I don't see myself in a Tesla any time soon. I liked my i3, but it was just sold today. The X5 can handle my day-to-day running around, and I don't have to think about it if I want to go further, as normally, there's a nearly full tank of fuel ready to just continue on, and when empty, about a 5-10 minute stop nearly anywhere in the country, even in a small town far from an interstate or shopping center where Tesla has their superchargers, and I can be back on the road again with more range than the Tesla has now...it basically will out range me, as I'll need to stop for one reason or another before it runs out of propulsion.

Eventually, I do think we'll all be in something other than an ICE or hybrid vehicle. This will happen faster in some places than others. It depends on the infrastructure status. Gearheads that lust over strong ICE sounds will have to make do with artificial sounds, or be prepared to put up with the costs and hassle to maintain their ICE, as that service industry will eventually dry up...not likely in my lifetime, but it's coming.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by jad03060

Many of the EVs that are out there today first, don't have all that big of a battery, and second, don't have all that big of a motor. Tesla has both. Coming from an ICE, the performance is kind of a big surprise. Then, throw in the first adaptors that have to have the newest thing and add in the green crowd that wants to show their creds, and when you throw in the supercharger network that was 'free' for owners at the beginning, and you have a dedicated audience. Some of the EVs coming out today will have it all over Tesla in build quality and will be able to match them on many other aspects. Being first has its advantages, but seeing exactly what people will buy, and what they really want does, too. So, I don't fault the mainstream car companies for their chosen path.

The next 2-3 years, Tesla will have their dominance stressed. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm not impressed with their build quality, or the concept of that one large, central display. I prefer things more like how BMW has done it on most of their vehicles, where some critical things still have their own buttons which are easier to hit, less distracting to drill down through menus, and less likely to drag your attention away from actually driving.

While the Tesla technique of thousands of small cells has some merits, anyone in manufacturing realizes the more parts involved, the more chances of failure, and the more cost to build it. Tesla is moving towards larger cells, but there still will be thousands, versus the less than 200 in say the X5 45e, and those are contained in 12 easily replaceable modules, so if one goes bad, you don't have to replace the whole thing.

Starting with a clean slate from the model S onwards gives them a chance to make their own path with their own priorities whereas, the typical established company can be more confined. But, BMW did allow their engineers a pretty much free path with the i3 and i8, but they never intended either of those models to be particularly mainstream...they used them to perfect some new build methods and introduce new materials. They never were designed for mass production. But, the knowledge gained is being used throughout their models as they get updated. Prior to the i3, it took a couple of days to cure a CF piece...now, they can lay it up and once the materials are laid out, have it fully cured in minutes. The roof on the i3 is made from scraps when building the vehicle tub, the fiber is made next to hydro generation plants, so green power can be used as it's extensive when doing this sort of thing, and the list goes on. That sort of tech is something Tesla doesn't have a chance to develop because of the costs involved, but BMW is at least a generation or two ahead of everyone else in the industry on that aspect...CF where it makes sense for strength and weight, conventional materials that they've been building with for decades, and you can end up with a lighter, stronger vehicle.

ANyway, I don't see myself in a Tesla any time soon. I liked my i3, but it was just sold today. The X5 can handle my day-to-day running around, and I don't have to think about it if I want to go further, as normally, there's a nearly full tank of fuel ready to just continue on, and when empty, about a 5-10 minute stop nearly anywhere in the country, even in a small town far from an interstate or shopping center where Tesla has their superchargers, and I can be back on the road again with more range than the Tesla has now...it basically will out range me, as I'll need to stop for one reason or another before it runs out of propulsion.

Eventually, I do think we'll all be in something other than an ICE or hybrid vehicle. This will happen faster in some places than others. It depends on the infrastructure status. Gearheads that lust over strong ICE sounds will have to make do with artificial sounds, or be prepared to put up with the costs and hassle to maintain their ICE, as that service industry will eventually dry up...not likely in my lifetime, but it's coming.

I agree. I think BMW overall has the most compelling product strategy and an excellent value for money. I am seriously considering the iX to replace my X5 at some point.