Beginning of the end for sedans in the US market?

alex2364 · 11-26-2018, 03:54 PM

There was news this morning that GM is closing 5 plants and removing 6 sedans from it's lineup. Ford also announced previously that it's removing all sedans from it's lineup next year. We all know SUV sales are on fire and sedans are slumping. Compact SUVs are the hottest segment in the US now for mainstream and luxury manufactures. The X3 is now BMW's biggest seller in the US.

Is this the beginning of the end of the sedan in the US? Will sedans eventually go the way of manual transmissions? What does everyone think?

gabriel.psd · 11-26-2018, 03:58 PM

I don’t think it’s a reflection of the sedan. I think it’s a reflection of the American branded sedan.

zx10guy · 11-26-2018, 03:59 PM

Just great. Bigger vehicles with more potential to cause higher degrees of injury and property damage to a large group of US drivers who got their license by basically breathing and showing up at the DMV.

Nice.

overcoil · 11-26-2018, 04:28 PM

I think the whole auto industry is in a precarious footing.
GM’s announcement and explanation today probably isn’t accurate in terms of why.

allinon72 · 11-26-2018, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

I think the whole auto industry is in a precarious footing.
GM’s announcement and explanation today probably isn’t accurate in terms of why.

I would agree - in '08 the problems weren't really fixed to the degree that they needed to be. The problem was simply papered over, money moved around, more financial trickery, etc. The auto makers seemingly started to turn it around by making half way acceptable vehicles, then gas prices started to decline, which boosted their profitable truck and SUV sales. That still wasn't enough - so they opened up the floodgates to subprime borrowers to keep the party going. I would bet this is the root cause of the problem. There's no doubt that SUVs and trucks are hot sellers in the US, and sedans are less popular, but not to the degree that the domestic automakers are claiming.

overlook637 · 11-26-2018, 05:01 PM

Ford and GM just does not have a car capable of competing with the Accord or Camry.

Arcades · 11-26-2018, 05:56 PM

I been saying it to myself that Ford or GM simply doesn't try anymore. They have stopped trying years and years ago.

This isn't any sort of a surprise to anyone who follow cars. While BMW always emphasize the importance of the 3 series out loud, you have Ford and GM just... there... They have given up a long time ago.

ASAP · 11-26-2018, 06:41 PM

A couple of things-

1) Both GM and Ford have continued to make shitty sedans no matter how they spin it.
2) They focused on crossovers and SUV's and Trucks as the profit margin was higher.
3) The core problem of a good car was never fixed... they were able to get away with the above due to low interest rates for years as well as low gas prices.
4) The moment the party with loans ended, the deep profit margins stopped

The American car industry will be in trouble for many years ahead unless they completely restructure and learn how to truly compete. A world class corvette and our obsession with trucks doesn't fix the core problem with the company. I can see all American auto manufacturers having problems for many years.

Germanauto · 11-26-2018, 08:24 PM

I grew up in the metro Detroit area with my folks working for the Big 3, notably GM.

These companies are historically incompetent and short-sighted. They build mediocre sedans with poor residuals and sub-par reliability then wonder why nobody buys them. The passenger car market is shrinking, sure, but it is still a very viable market for the Japanese and Germans.

Detroit will just never get its shyt together.

obert · 11-26-2018, 08:43 PM

My next vehicle will be some sort of an SUV. Easier to get in and out, I can see better and packing thing into and taking them out is much easier as well.

I just can’t see myself in a sedan again that is my DD.

Slaney · 11-26-2018, 09:39 PM

I would never venture into an American car dealership by choice. Not a one of them.

tuco44 · 11-26-2018, 09:41 PM

I'm staying with the sedan/coupe for a DD, at least for the foreseeable future.

The SUV (in it's many forms) is inferior for me because:
- a sedan is more comfortable,
- a sedan has greater handling capability, especially in emergency situations,
- a sedan provides better fuel economy,
- I don't need huge cargo room, nor do I tow anything,
- I prefer the driving position of a sedan.
- I don't go anywhere off road (not that many SUVs go off road).
- IMO, a sedan/coupe is more fun to drive than a SUV.

I owned an X3 in 2011 for a while, but both my wife and i were happy to get back to a car.

Regardless, I don't think the US domestic makers make many good sedans, and they want to be out of them to improve their bottom line. IMO, the US domestic makers could build a better sedan IF they wanted to.

Just my 2c

chris719 · 11-26-2018, 09:49 PM

GM and Ford have made many mistakes, but the writing is on the wall for sedans. BMW, MB, and Audi sales numbers already show the shift. The US and China want SUVs and crossovers.

For the company's profitability and survival, they need to punt on this i4 and divert the resources into getting an electric X3 and X1 out there ASAP.

I hate SUVs but now that everyone and their dog drives one, it is a pain in the ass to not be able to see what's in front of anything on the road.

RM7 · 11-26-2018, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuco44

I'm staying with the sedan/coupe for a DD, at least for the foreseeable future.

The SUV (in it's many forms) is inferior for me because:
- a sedan is more comfortable,
- a sedan has greater handling capability, especially in emergency situations,
- a sedan provides better fuel economy,
- I don't need huge cargo room, nor do I tow anything,
- I prefer the driving position of a sedan.
- I don't go anywhere off road (not that many SUVs go off road).
- IMO, a sedan/coupe is more fun to drive than a SUV.

I owned an X3 in 2011 for a while, but both my wife and i were happy to get back to a car.

Regardless, I don't think the US domestic makers make many good sedans, and they want to be out of them to improve their bottom line. IMO, the US domestic makers could build a better sedan IF they wanted to.

Just my 2c

Ergonomics wise, a low SUV/minvan/pickup is easier for people to get in and out of. Anything that sits down low is harder.

Other than that, chicks love SUVs, they want their family to have an SUV. Men love trucks for the status symbol and they are decked out these days like luxury cars inside. This is where the profit is. I don't think it has much to do with not making a quality car, if there was a market for it I think it would be supplied, but people aren't buying sedans, they are buying SUVs and trucks.

overcoil · 11-26-2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Ergonomics wise, a low SUV/minvan/pickup is easier for people to get in and out of. Anything that sits down low is harder.

Other than that, chicks love SUVs, they want their family to have an SUV. Men love trucks for the status symbol and they are decked out these days like luxury cars inside. This is where the profit is. I don't think it has much to do with not making a quality car, if there was a market for it I think it would be supplied, but people aren't buying sedans, they are buying SUVs and trucks.

In Europe SUV’s are meeting resistance for enviro and running cost, the reason Peugeot has a new wagon in the upper segment / not that the n American market and GM care about Europe

Mingwan · 11-26-2018, 10:54 PM

I doubt sedan’s will die off. If anything, their shape will evolve. We already seeing that with gran coupe designs.

10" · 11-27-2018, 05:41 AM

the sedan is certainly dying a slow death in the US market by US companies; but to be honest it's also suffering a slow death in the european market from euro companies.

Let's face it, the benchmark European sedan the 3-series has not been relevant since the E90 era and since then its status has been on a downward trajectory. The new one looks to further that downward spiral.

Companies like BMW and Audi don't depend on sedan sales anymore; the driving force are the lower priced SUVs.

The general public, who are in general devoid of an actual opinion most of the time, just buy whatever they are sold and told....

Run Silent · 11-27-2018, 07:39 AM

I don't think the sedan is dying anywhere close to the extent that people are portraying it to be. I think the domestics just don't have a way to compete.

Here are the sales figures for 2017:

2017 Camry: 387,081
2017 Accord: 322,655

2017 Escape: 308,296
2017 Explorer: 271,131

The Camry and Accord are outselling the two most popular domestic SUV's in America. You don't think that Ford would want another vehicle that would sell over a quarter million units a year? Of course they would and if they built a car that was as popular as the Camry and Accord, they could have just that.

You can review trends of annual sales at the link below. You will see that passenger car sales are not in the slump that many portray them to be.

http://carsalesbase.com/category/car-sales-us/

3798j · 11-27-2018, 07:40 AM

The US top 10.

Run Silent · 11-27-2018, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3798j

The US top 10.

Sorry - not sure what you are trying to convey with this graph? Can you please expound on this?

1MOREMOD · 11-27-2018, 08:20 AM

Everything on there is foreign or a truck pretty straight forward.

mecheng77 · 11-27-2018, 08:30 AM

I agree with above, its no so much the death of the sedan its the mediocre US sedans that don't appeal to people.

My next car will be a wagon, all the benefits of a sedan with the practicality of a hatch for hauling things. Sadly there aren't many options. The Volvo V60 is looking very appealing, I like the 2015 (first gens).

11-26-2018, 03:54 PM	#1
alex2364 Colonel 2862 Rep 2,754 Posts Drives: 2020 M4 ZCP / 2023 X3 M40i Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northern VA iTrader: (2) Garage List 2020 BMW M4 [10.00] 2023 BMW X3 M40i [10.00]	Beginning of the end for sedans in the US market? There was news this morning that GM is closing 5 plants and removing 6 sedans from it's lineup. Ford also announced previously that it's removing all sedans from it's lineup next year. We all know SUV sales are on fire and sedans are slumping. Compact SUVs are the hottest segment in the US now for mainstream and luxury manufactures. The X3 is now BMW's biggest seller in the US. Is this the beginning of the end of the sedan in the US? Will sedans eventually go the way of manual transmissions? What does everyone think?
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11-26-2018, 03:58 PM	#2
gabriel.psd Lieutenant 493 Rep 467 Posts Drives: F80 AW 6MT Join Date: May 2009 Location: San Diego iTrader: (0) Garage List 2004 330ci [0.00]	I don’t think it’s a reflection of the sedan. I think it’s a reflection of the American branded sedan. __________________ Gabe - F80 AW Cloth 6MT - HRE 520 - OEM GTS Hood - CS lip/spoiler/diffuser - Status Gruppe SRS Coilovers - Nose Lift - Full Suspension - OEM Alcantara & Carbon interior - BM3 - IKON
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11-26-2018, 04:28 PM	#4
overcoil Major General 3074 Rep 5,577 Posts Drives: M235i 6spd Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Mid-Atlantic iTrader: (0)	I think the whole auto industry is in a precarious footing. GM’s announcement and explanation today probably isn’t accurate in terms of why.
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11-26-2018, 05:01 PM	#6
overlook637 Lieutenant 245 Rep 466 Posts Drives: M4 Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	Ford and GM just does not have a car capable of competing with the Accord or Camry.
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11-26-2018, 05:56 PM	#7
Arcades In The Rain 8170 Rep 6,258 Posts Drives: '24 GT4RS, '24 Macan GTS Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: SoCal iTrader: (1) Garage List 2024 Porsche Cayman ... [10.00] 2024 Porsche Macan GTS [10.00]	I been saying it to myself that Ford or GM simply doesn't try anymore. They have stopped trying years and years ago. This isn't any sort of a surprise to anyone who follow cars. While BMW always emphasize the importance of the 3 series out loud, you have Ford and GM just... there... They have given up a long time ago. __________________ '24 Porsche Cayman GT4RS Arctic Grey "Alice" '24 Porsche Macan GTS Dolomite Silver "Gina"
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11-26-2018, 06:41 PM	#8
ASAP Major General 10158 Rep 8,626 Posts Drives: '23 X3 M40i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: FL iTrader: (0)	A couple of things- 1) Both GM and Ford have continued to make shitty sedans no matter how they spin it. 2) They focused on crossovers and SUV's and Trucks as the profit margin was higher. 3) The core problem of a good car was never fixed... they were able to get away with the above due to low interest rates for years as well as low gas prices. 4) The moment the party with loans ended, the deep profit margins stopped The American car industry will be in trouble for many years ahead unless they completely restructure and learn how to truly compete. A world class corvette and our obsession with trucks doesn't fix the core problem with the company. I can see all American auto manufacturers having problems for many years.
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11-26-2018, 08:24 PM	#9
Germanauto Major General 9701 Rep 6,084 Posts Drives: Alfa Romeo Giulia, Rosso Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: LA iTrader: (0)	I grew up in the metro Detroit area with my folks working for the Big 3, notably GM. These companies are historically incompetent and short-sighted. They build mediocre sedans with poor residuals and sub-par reliability then wonder why nobody buys them. The passenger car market is shrinking, sure, but it is still a very viable market for the Japanese and Germans. Detroit will just never get its shyt together.
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11-26-2018, 08:43 PM	#10
obert Brigadier General 1781 Rep 4,456 Posts Drives: 2013 328i Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Seattle Wa iTrader: (49)	My next vehicle will be some sort of an SUV. Easier to get in and out, I can see better and packing thing into and taking them out is much easier as well. I just can’t see myself in a sedan again that is my DD.
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11-26-2018, 09:39 PM	#11
Slaney Second Lieutenant 208 Rep 222 Posts Drives: 2019 M2C Join Date: May 2017 Location: Houston, tx iTrader: (1)	I would never venture into an American car dealership by choice. Not a one of them.
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11-26-2018, 09:41 PM	#12
tuco44 Colonel 644 Rep 2,294 Posts Drives: 2018 340i xDrive M Perf Edtn Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Western Canada iTrader: (0)	I'm staying with the sedan/coupe for a DD, at least for the foreseeable future. The SUV (in it's many forms) is inferior for me because: - a sedan is more comfortable, - a sedan has greater handling capability, especially in emergency situations, - a sedan provides better fuel economy, - I don't need huge cargo room, nor do I tow anything, - I prefer the driving position of a sedan. - I don't go anywhere off road (not that many SUVs go off road). - IMO, a sedan/coupe is more fun to drive than a SUV. I owned an X3 in 2011 for a while, but both my wife and i were happy to get back to a car. Regardless, I don't think the US domestic makers make many good sedans, and they want to be out of them to improve their bottom line. IMO, the US domestic makers could build a better sedan IF they wanted to. Just my 2c __________________ 2018 340i xDrive M Perf Edtn Sunset Orange Previous BMWs - 19 others since 1971.
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11-26-2018, 09:49 PM	#13
chris719 Major General 7334 Rep 7,295 Posts Drives: '08 M Roadster Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	GM and Ford have made many mistakes, but the writing is on the wall for sedans. BMW, MB, and Audi sales numbers already show the shift. The US and China want SUVs and crossovers. For the company's profitability and survival, they need to punt on this i4 and divert the resources into getting an electric X3 and X1 out there ASAP. I hate SUVs but now that everyone and their dog drives one, it is a pain in the ass to not be able to see what's in front of anything on the road. Last edited by chris719; 11-26-2018 at 09:57 PM..
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11-26-2018, 10:54 PM	#16
Mingwan Major 1893 Rep 1,338 Posts Drives: X1 Individual custom paint Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Kansas iTrader: (0)	I doubt sedan’s will die off. If anything, their shape will evolve. We already seeing that with gran coupe designs.
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11-27-2018, 05:41 AM	#17
10" Colonel 4975 Rep 2,268 Posts Drives: orange BMW 1M. Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: world iTrader: (0)	the sedan is certainly dying a slow death in the US market by US companies; but to be honest it's also suffering a slow death in the european market from euro companies. Let's face it, the benchmark European sedan the 3-series has not been relevant since the E90 era and since then its status has been on a downward trajectory. The new one looks to further that downward spiral. Companies like BMW and Audi don't depend on sedan sales anymore; the driving force are the lower priced SUVs. The general public, who are in general devoid of an actual opinion most of the time, just buy whatever they are sold and told.... __________________ don't read this. too late...
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11-27-2018, 07:39 AM	#18
Run Silent Run Deep 15127 Rep 4,123 Posts Drives: Back and Forth To Work Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: The Mountains iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Alfa Romeo Giu ... [0.00] 2022 Ford Bronco 2d ... [0.00] 2016 Alfa Romeo 4C [8.50] 2019 BMW i8 Roadster [0.00]	I don't think the sedan is dying anywhere close to the extent that people are portraying it to be. I think the domestics just don't have a way to compete. Here are the sales figures for 2017: 2017 Camry: 387,081 2017 Accord: 322,655 2017 Escape: 308,296 2017 Explorer: 271,131 The Camry and Accord are outselling the two most popular domestic SUV's in America. You don't think that Ford would want another vehicle that would sell over a quarter million units a year? Of course they would and if they built a car that was as popular as the Camry and Accord, they could have just that. You can review trends of annual sales at the link below. You will see that passenger car sales are not in the slump that many portray them to be. http://carsalesbase.com/category/car-sales-us/ __________________ *Don't sweat petty things....or pet sweaty things.*
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11-27-2018, 07:40 AM	#19
3798j Lieutenant Colonel 11406 Rep 1,794 Posts Drives: E86 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Susquehanna Valley iTrader: (0) Garage List '55 Ford F100 [0.00] '08 Z4 3.0SI [8.50] '66 Triumph TR4A [0.00] '85 Corvette [0.00] '64 Corvette [0.00] '68 Triumph GT6 [0.00] '19 VW Golf "R ... [0.00]	The US top 10. Attached Images
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11-27-2018, 08:20 AM	#21
1MOREMOD - 11817 Rep 23,187 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	Everything on there is foreign or a truck pretty straight forward.
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11-27-2018, 08:30 AM	#22
mecheng77 Colonel 1006 Rep 2,243 Posts Drives: 2007 328i / 2014 M235i Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Ontario Canada iTrader: (0) Garage List [0.00] [0.00]	I agree with above, its no so much the death of the sedan its the mediocre US sedans that don't appeal to people. My next car will be a wagon, all the benefits of a sedan with the practicality of a hatch for hauling things. Sadly there aren't many options. The Volvo V60 is looking very appealing, I like the 2015 (first gens).
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