[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I disagree. Back when BMW offered substantially better driving cars than what was offered by other makes (1970s, 1980's, 1990's), they made the owner a better driver because the chassis was so well engineered it reacted better to driver input. The BMW chassis always remained composed, and after a decent amount of seat time, the driver improved his skills. The correct mirror placement, the large greenhouse, thin roof pillars, correct seating position, correct steering wheel placement. Better headlights, better sightlines over the hood, less tiring gauge lighting. Easy to read gauges, tactile and memory placement of controls. Direct brake feel for better modulation. Proper weight balance. Steering feel. All these things were engineering science BMW instituted in its car designs and made for better drivers. That's why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line was not marketing hype.

It is now, though...

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Wait....what is this??? Someone saying the E46 M3 is worse than the G20? IMPOSSIBLE, they don't know what they are talking about, they aren't a car enthusiast.

In all seriousness. This has been my point. The point is, everyone likes their cars differently. Just because one person doesn't like how it drives, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It also doesn't make them more or less of a car enthusiast.

To put it bluntly with cars, it just is. Nothing more, nothing less. Either you like it, or you don't. You can have the crappiest car in the world to 95% of people in the world, but there will always be those who enjoy the car. Does that mean they can't be considered car enthusiasts? Does that mean they are clearly wrong and have no idea what they are talking about? Simply put, no to both of those.

Well said.

Some posters in this topic don't understand my position either, I see both sides of the enthusiast argument. My wife says I have BMW in my blood, so she sees a bias towards BMW.

As I've stated earlier in the tread, I was there from before BMW really earned their iconic motoring status. E21, E30, E12, E28, yes I know those cars well. They weren't perfect at all, great cars but flawed and quirky in some respects. I witnessed how the E30 earned its place in the UK motoring history. I enjoyed driving an E30 323i, (before we had the 325i), many trips cross country in Southern England. Lovely car, even with flawed brake feel, and a twitchy back end. But at the same time I still would choose the 5-series E28 528i. A far better vehicle, IMO.

My father started with a New Class 2000 sedan in 1971, he owned multiple BMW models like the E3 2500, settled for 7-series models. When he died he had an E23 735i in his garage, which he was driving until the week he passed.

I've have owned an E39, to many folks, the pinnacle of BMW vehicles. I had a well spec'd 540i wagon. Loved that vehicle, but I have to say I enjoy my current F11 535i wagon just as much. The F11 is the BMW I've owned the longest ever, 10+ years. Why? Because it is a superb vehicle. Period. When I move on, I'll miss it more than the E39.

When owning the E39 540i I'd carry passengers, many who appreciate decent vehicles. But to explain at low speeds why the ride was compromised, (M-Tech suspension) and have to say. "It's better at speed, it hunkers down and smooths out" is no excuse for a fidgety ride quality on less than perfect road surfaces, at typical speeds we drive all day.

Forward to the F11 with its electronics, controlling Adaptive Drive, and hey, I have decent ride quality at low speeds and better handling than the E39 on M-Tech, at speed, all at the touch of a button. What's not to like as a BMW 'enthusiast'. Yes, it is bigger than my first 5-series by a mile, but all cars have grown, people expect it as family transport, BMW or not.

I fully understand some enthusiasts want the same today as say the E30 of the past, even the E46. Our 1 & 2-series cars are much bigger and far heavier today than the older 3-series. How we get back to light weight and small vehicles, I don't know.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I disagree. Back when BMW offered substantially better driving cars than what was offered by other makes (1970s, 1980's, 1990's), they made the owner a better driver because the chassis was so well engineered it reacted better to driver input. The BMW chassis always remained composed, and after a decent amount of seat time, the driver improved his skills. The correct mirror placement, the large greenhouse, thin roof pillars, correct seating position, correct steering wheel placement. Better headlights, better sightlines over the hood, less tiring gauge lighting. Easy to read gauges, tactile and memory placement of controls. Direct brake feel for better modulation. Proper weight balance. Steering feel. All these things were engineering science BMW instituted in its car designs and made for better drivers. That's why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line was not marketing hype.

It is now, though...

Other marques have caught up?

Many on here rate the E9x models and are hanging on to them as the last decent BMW, for dynamics.

I remember when I had my E91 wagon, (I'd driven quite a few E9x examples to get to the spec' I wanted), I wasn't happy with its dynamics, including the HPAS steering. I went into my Ford Dealer to drive a demo UK (2006) Mondeo on my local roads. Iust wanted to see if it was me, or what. The Mondeo Zetec, known to be a good setup and decent driver's car on UK roads, blew the E91 away for how fluid it was through the twisty stuff. Much more composed, steering, damping, handling all better than my BMW, and 'cheap as chips' into the mix as well.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

How about electric steering intentionally designed to remove feedback from the wheel?

I see one of the key problems in understanding feedback, we soon get into what is positive feedback and what is negative interference. Some of us like the negative stuff as well, we class that as important feedback.

EPS does allow taking out some of the negative interference, that dulls feedback by its very nature.

Here in the UK BMW steering has had a bashing ahead of EPS, a big turn off in many of the reviews over the years. Too heavy, etc.

We clearly are in different times, with different expectations by many users.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Why buy a BMW then?

There are plenty of cars that have all that tech and create a more relaxing drive for WAY less money than a BMW. Buying a BMW was supposed to be about the driving experience first and foremost and BMW has been moving away from that since the E90. I realize that BMW could never make it as a car company by just catering to enthusiasts but it would be nice if the M cars were still the focused cars of the past. Current M cars are performance monsters by numbers but they have definitely lost the magic of the past.

I salute BMW for adapting with the times and still being a successful manufacturer but this old dinosaur will be moving on.
.

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

There many users who rate the G2x vehicles. Don't be put off, I remember the past with fondness. If you are not driving the older stuff now and simply in the current models, enjoy! There is a bit of "rose coloured glasses" going on. That's not to say some of the older cars aren't BMW models that set the benchmark for what can be achieved, with smaller lighter weight vehicles.

I'll put my flame suit on... But I was there, all wasn't perfect with BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?

I talk with BMW owners who are not on forums, there's a love for the modern designs. Even returned to BMW because they have "at last" got up to date and modern. Many rate the 4-series and the latest M3/4 M-car designs. Get more positive comments from the public, than they ever had with the older, more conservative designs.

I do sense many enthusiasts are being left behind. When M3/M4 drivers rate the latest models as the best M-car they have ever had, there is definitely mixed opinion.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I talk with BMW owners who are not on forums, there's a love for the modern designs. Even returned to BMW because they have "at last" got up to date and modern. Many rate the 4-series and the latest M3/4 M-car designs. Get more positive comments from the public, than they ever had with the older, more conservative designs.

I do sense many enthusiasts are being left behind. When M3/M4 drivers rate the latest models as the best M-car they have ever had, there is definitely mixed opinion.

Yes I’ve noticed the same thing. Lots of positive comments on the new grilles. Ive owned 2 M3 G80s and now I’m allocated to get an F90 M5. I love the whole lineup. My wife drives the X3. Great stuff.

[TheMaxXHD]

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup. Which anyone that has driven them would know that while you can't beat physics, it does get close for an SUV to the sedans, and are some of the best handling SUVs on the market.

There may be some minor regression in driving dynamics over the decades depending on who you ask and personal preferences, but it did not just fall off a cliff. They still drive better than most vehicles on the road, and certainly drive way better than your average Honda. They still are some of the best driving cars on the market.

Also for the record. I think iDrive 8 looks amazing. Can't wait to use it.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup.

Both of these statements are patently false.

The driving dynamics (and the overall performance) of the G20 are almost universally praised by the vast majority of members who have posted on this forum. And have been from the first day they went on sale in the U.S.

It is also almost universally agreed on this forum that BMW’s SUVs are the best driving and handling SUVs on the market. Only possibly bested by the Porsche Macan. Personally, I can’t recall a single instance of reading a post where someone equated the driving dynamics of a BMW SUV to those of other “regular” SUVs.

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup. Which anyone that has driven them would know that while you can't beat physics, it does get close for an SUV to the sedans, and are some of the best handling SUVs on the market.

There may be some minor regression in driving dynamics over the decades depending on who you ask and personal preferences, but it did not just fall off a cliff. They still drive better than most vehicles on the road, and certainly drive way better than your average Honda. They still are some of the best driving cars on the market.

Also for the record. I think iDrive 8 looks amazing. Can't wait to use it.

I think it will be amazing when they get it out of beta design and have it integrated into the dash

[________]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Both of these statements are patently false.

The driving dynamics (and the overall performance) of the G20 are almost universally praised by the vast majority of members who have posted on this forum. And have been from the first day they went on sale in the U.S.

It is also almost universally agreed on this forum that BMW’s SUVs are the best driving and handling SUVs on the market. Only possibly bested by the Porsche Macan. Personally, I can’t recall a single instance of reading a post where someone equated the driving dynamics of a BMW SUV to those of other “regular” SUVs.

“Universally agreed” lol
Who would agree an X5 handles well? Lol thing is a sail boat… won’t even bring up the Cayenne because that would be too much humiliation, but I bought an Audi Q7 instead because I couldn’t bear drive a wallowing X5. I returned the X5 as a loaner, so bad it is… the Q7 is surefooted, even if less luxurious (and less expensive to boot).

Hey; I just realized I might have been the first post you read of someone equating the drive dynamics of an X5 to a “regular” SUV. Congratulations on losing your virginity.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

If you've never driven a "classic" BMW when they were new (and not yet classic) in comparison to their in-the-era compatriots, you can't grasp what I wrote. My point is not about what other people think about your automotive choice. Its not about your self esteem and self image portrayed by the badge on the hood. BMWs were simply better cars to drive and safer cars to drive because they were purposely engineered to be. Classic BMWs intuitively did what the driver wanted, not by computer aided driving apps, but because the chassis engineering was better. That's why BMWs gained popularity in the late 1970s and 1980s when the US economy was flowing with cash and people began to buy BMWs as status symbols.

The "target audience" of BMW were the original buyers like me who bought a BMW because how it drove and not for the Roundel on the hood. The target audience were the men and women who understood the engineering and why an in-line 6 is balanced and how that affects the feel of the machine, understood the importance of 50/50 weight balance, the importance of sightlines, the impotence of clutch take-up feel, and of brake pedal feedback. It was not about the fun of the drive but rather the quality of the drive.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you've never driven a "classic" BMW when they were new (and not yet classic) in comparison to their in-the-era compatriots, you can't grasp what I wrote. My point is not about what other people think about your automotive choice. Its not about your self esteem and self image portrayed by the badge on the hood. BMWs were simply better cars to drive and safer cars to drive because they were purposely engineered to be. Classic BMWs intuitively did what the driver wanted, not by computer aided driving apps, but because the chassis engineering was better. That's why BMWs gained popularity in the late 1970s and 1980s when the US economy was flowing with cash and people began to buy BMWs as status symbols.

The "target audience" of BMW were the original buyers like me who bought a BMW because how it drove and not for the Roundel on the hood. The target audience were the men and women who understood the engineering and why an in-line 6 is balanced and how that affects the feel of the machine, understood the importance of 50/50 weight balance, the importance of sightlines, the impotence of clutch take-up feel, and of brake pedal feedback. It was not about the fun of the drive but rather the quality of the drive.

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

The message of my nostalgic post is not a comparison between modern BMWs and Classic BMWs.

But with the advent of the time machine, I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 M5 any day over any current BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The message of my nostalgic post is not a comparison between modern BMWs and Classic BMWs.

But with the advent of the time machine, I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 M5 any day over any current BMW.

Okay, I'll bite. How many bought into BMW for the M5 models? Such a small market, compared to the 'lesser' models. I've driven the E28 M5, yes a positive experience, but not as practical for me (or most BMW 5-series drivers of the period), as a well spec'd E28 528i. Even back then, with appreciation for BMW engineering and driving dynamics, many of us chose our BMW for practicality and creature comforts.

Isn't it the same today? Comparing to the past is, IMO, definitely a nostalgic experience, a bit of the "good old days" reminiscing. The motoring scene has changed on so many counts. Weight, safety, emissions, size, etc. Yes, I get the feeling for 1970 - 1980s models, I also have the memories of how BMW stood above the crowd for driving pleasure.

For me, it is different than many who know the past, a new E28 M5 or a new F90 M5? I'd be taking the F90.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Okay, I'll bite. How many bought into BMW for the M5 models? Such a small market, compared to the 'lesser' models. I've driven the E28 M5, yes a positive experience, but not as practical for me (or most BMW 5-series drivers of the period), as a well spec'd E28 528i. Even back then, with appreciation for BMW engineering and driving dynamics, many of us chose our BMW for practicality and creature comforts.

I found no difference in comfort between my 535is and the M5. I opted for my first E28 decades ago because the cost of maintaining an M5 over a 535is was huge compared to the relatively small power increase. Same seats. Same body, half the price. To the contrary, I never considered a 528 because here in the US that meant 528e (I already had an E12 528i).

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

I found no difference in comfort between my 535is and the M5. I opted for my first E28 decades ago because the cost of maintaining an M5 over a 535is was huge compared to the relatively small power increase. Same seats. Same body, half the price. To the contrary, I never considered a 528 because here in the US that meant 528e (I already had an E12 528i).

I realise the markets were set up differently, but here in the UK the typical 528i was in SE (Special Equipment) specification. The M5 was less well appointed, the value in the M-division engineering.

The other issue we were starting to notice by the time the E28 models were coming to the UK, suspensions (although firm) were not ideally tuned for UK roads. Our UK chassis engineers in Ford and Rover knew how to tune a chassis, particularly damping for UK use. This became more noticeable as we moved on through the model generations. I'm aware of BMW chassis engineers coming to the UK, to try and fine tune for the UK, a bigger challenge than easily sorted. Secondary ride comfort being the biggest issue and generating the customer complaints. Hence so many UK motor mag' reviews over the years advising users to skip the sport suspensions.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

Won't speak for Effthreeoh but quite sure he's not comparing classic to current. He's comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars. They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

And yes, in many ways the older cars if not "better" all around were certainly more engaging. An older engaging car can be more fun than a more modern less engaging car. My 135i isn't a "better" car that a current 330i. But it's a crap load more engaging to drive, that's for certain. Would I swap it out for free? Nope. Not if I actually had to keep and drive the 330i.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Pretty sure not classic to current. Comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars.

They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Pretty sure not classic to current. Comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars.

They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

But that's literally every single car on the market. Cars were built better 40 years ago then they are now. That said, they also weren't, everything was lighter and less sturdy and if you rolled over on the roof you were screwed, because the roof was so unsupported you'd be in a lot of trouble. Same thing with the doors. The doors themselves were nice, but the entire frames were more flimsy and overall less safe.

Sure they were built better. But not in the way you think. They were built using better materials. But also, part of that was they were lighter, and often times that lightness and chassis dynamics were at the expense of the actual structural integrity of the frame, and thus if you got hit, and especially if you rolled over, you had much less protecting you. Than you do now.

The 80s were a different time. To want an 80s built car on the road today, you would be driving less a nice car, and more an unsafe car.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?

You have set up a false premise and then knocked it down. Many if not most of us who dislike the new Bugs Bunny grille are not wedded to the old grille. We just want a front end that doesn't make us puke.

[TheMaxXHD]

All this over a grill......I don't exactly like the design either....but you don't see me being all enraged by it.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Instead of complaining on a forum, speak with the wallets.

But that is the problem, they still sell, so anyone that hates the grills has to be mad, because their precious brand doesn't need to listen to them.

If you want my honest assessment, the negativity of the grill caused publicity to increase even further, causing more sales. Not exactly the Streisand effect, but something akin to it. In actual fact, that was probably BMW's goal, to create a unique design that causes publicity (positive or negative), to stand out and increase sales. The BMW M lineups in particular, aren't high volume, so the more attention, the better.