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      03-22-2020, 04:40 PM   #1
dyzfnctional
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HiFi vs. Harmon Kardon vs. B&W

After a couple days owning my X5, I regret not upgrading to HK or BW. Does anyone know if there are any differences if I listen to music - FLAC files vs. mp3 on the BMW Hifi system? Just wondering... Thanks in advance
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      03-22-2020, 07:14 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by dyzfnctional View Post
After a couple days owning my X5, I regret not upgrading to HK or BW. Does anyone know if there are any differences if I listen to music - FLAC files vs. mp3 on the BMW Hifi system? Just wondering... Thanks in advance
Since you have the car, it's an easy test for yourself. I am not just intentionally being an ass (that's usually natural rather than intentional), it is that only you can really decide in your own environment and your own media. A few comments to support this assertion:

- lots of people here recommend Tidal so I gave it a serious shot; nothing wrong with it and their artist remunerations ARE apparently better than Spotify, but it didn't make enough of a difference against Spotify in any of my tested environments (including G05 HK system) to justify re-confusing my family and their existing playlists on Spotify, so I didn't subscribe after the trial; that's a me decision, I am 100% certain many others have different priorities

- a long time ago I had made some money and was convinced by my best friend to upgrade my main audio system including way better speakers, amp, and CD player; one of worst decisions of my life (not really, still happy with that equipment); the problem is once you have good equipment, you learn that lots of recordings are crap; I couldn't bear to listen to some of my favourite CDs at the time

- I am/was a broadcast television/video engineer in the first part of my career; my company led the transition to digital in broadcast and broadcast quality and broadcast compression is way above consumer visual quality; I literally couldn't watch anything on consumer digital cable or consumer digital satellite for a decade after stopping work on broadcast equipment until my eyes/brain finally mostly stopped seeing the compression artifacts instead of the artistic content itself; I still notice it constantly (and now with adaptive streaming), but it only triggers an internal sardonic smile now

Point is, once you start down the path of improving audio/visual quality, nothing will ever be good enough again and it quite literally takes some of the enjoyment out of the music and video content itself. At least it did for me.

Having said all that, I am in the process of re-ripping all my CDs to FLAC for archival purposes and since storage is cheap now, using FLAC in the X5 as well — doesn't hurt and simpler by having fewer duplicates.
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      03-22-2020, 07:28 PM   #3
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I have HK and really can’t tell whether the MP3s (in 320kb) sound any better. It just didn’t make me feel like “wow, it does sound great.” In fact, I do feel that my Sonos system in my living room (and playing the same files) actually sounds better for some reasons probably because of the larger space. I haven’t tried flac in my G06 but will do so.

Home sonos setup is playbar + sub + two one’s, making it 5.1
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      03-22-2020, 08:39 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by doctorttt View Post
I have HK and really can’t tell whether the MP3s (in 320kb) sound any better. It just didn’t make me feel like “wow, it does sound great.” In fact, I do feel that my Sonos system in my living room (and playing the same files) actually sounds better for some reasons probably because of the larger space. I haven’t tried flac in my G06 but will do so.

Home sonos setup is playbar + sub + two one’s, making it 5.1

Thanks for your input. I also tried on my Bose sound system and notice it slightly sounding better.

To the other comment, yes I can test myself (which I will do), however I thought I'd ask in case anyone tested already.
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      03-23-2020, 09:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzfnctional View Post
Thanks for your input. I also tried on my Bose sound system and notice it slightly sounding better.

To the other comment, yes I can test myself (which I will do), however I thought I'd ask in case anyone tested already.
It so subjective. There's not an objective test that one can run to say one sounds better than the other. It's all about the listener and their sensitivity the the quality of audio. If you ask my wife, she can't tell the difference between FLAC or MP3 any any of our sound systems (car or home). In her opinion, listening to music on the single SONOS one in the bathroom sounds the same as when we listen to the same track in our car. So obviously, someone like that would not benefit from the hifi sound systems.

I had a friend of mine that I accidentally ruined satellite radio for. After I pointed out how horrible it sounds because it's high compression. Some receivers are better than others, but in his Jeep and in my Mercedes, it was horrible. He never noticed until I pointed it out. Someone like that probably wouldn't notice or care between the different sound systems or audio sources.

What I do is use my home theater setup in my house as the benchmark. Since this is a high quality setup. I play a few of my favorite tracks on that then take it over to the car and play the same tracks. I play it through Spotify and through Amazon Music HD to try and get as close to lossless as possible. Then I tweak the sound settings in the car to make the track sound like how I'm used to it sounding. Keeping in mind that the acoustics in the car are very different than a room in your house.

With all that being said, there's no denying that the HK system is better than the stock system and that the B&W system is better than the HK system. The real question is, are those improvements worth it to you. There's a huge premium for the B&W over the HK - if you're someone who doesn't appreciate it, then it's not worth it - Like my wife, she thinks her Bose system in her car is as good as the B&W in my X5 - it's simply because she doesn't appreciate what separates the two systems.

Remember, no matter how good the stereo is, if your track is garbage, it's going to sound like garbage, so you have to try and get the best possible stream going in as possible.

Last edited by VTENGR; 03-23-2020 at 09:40 AM..
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      03-23-2020, 10:54 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by VTENGR View Post
It so subjective. There's not an objective test that one can run to say one sounds better than the other. It's all about the listener and their sensitivity the the quality of audio. If you ask my wife, she can't tell the difference between FLAC or MP3 any any of our sound systems (car or home). In her opinion, listening to music on the single SONOS one in the bathroom sounds the same as when we listen to the same track in our car. So obviously, someone like that would not benefit from the hifi sound systems.

I had a friend of mine that I accidentally ruined satellite radio for. After I pointed out how horrible it sounds because it's high compression. Some receivers are better than others, but in his Jeep and in my Mercedes, it was horrible. He never noticed until I pointed it out. Someone like that probably wouldn't notice or care between the different sound systems or audio sources.

What I do is use my home theater setup in my house as the benchmark. Since this is a high quality setup. I play a few of my favorite tracks on that then take it over to the car and play the same tracks. I play it through Spotify and through Amazon Music HD to try and get as close to lossless as possible. Then I tweak the sound settings in the car to make the track sound like how I'm used to it sounding. Keeping in mind that the acoustics in the car are very different than a room in your house.

With all that being said, there's no denying that the HK system is better than the stock system and that the B&W system is better than the HK system. The real question is, are those improvements worth it to you. There's a huge premium for the B&W over the HK - if you're someone who doesn't appreciate it, then it's not worth it - Like my wife, she thinks her Bose system in her car is as good as the B&W in my X5 - it's simply because she doesn't appreciate what separates the two systems.

Remember, no matter how good the stereo is, if your track is garbage, it's going to sound like garbage, so you have to try and get the best possible stream going in as possible.

Appreciate your suggestions and input
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      03-24-2020, 07:11 PM   #7
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I just tried .flac on my G06 and it's a good track for sure. My opinion remains the same. The HK system just doesn't 'wow' me. Sound quality is subjective as VENTGR said.
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      03-25-2020, 01:33 AM   #8
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HK is a nice upgrade.

BW.
I don't see a reason to spend that much on higher quality speakers because of all the (driving) background noises you have when using it.
I believe a (driving) car interior is not an ideal environment to enjoy that kind of (sound) quality.
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      03-25-2020, 10:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
Since you have the car, it's an easy test for yourself. I am not just intentionally being an ass (that's usually natural rather than intentional), it is that only you can really decide in your own environment and your own media. A few comments to support this assertion:

- lots of people here recommend Tidal so I gave it a serious shot; nothing wrong with it and their artist remunerations ARE apparently better than Spotify, but it didn't make enough of a difference against Spotify in any of my tested environments (including G05 HK system) to justify re-confusing my family and their existing playlists on Spotify, so I didn't subscribe after the trial; that's a me decision, I am 100% certain many others have different priorities

- a long time ago I had made some money and was convinced by my best friend to upgrade my main audio system including way better speakers, amp, and CD player; one of worst decisions of my life (not really, still happy with that equipment); the problem is once you have good equipment, you learn that lots of recordings are crap; I couldn't bear to listen to some of my favourite CDs at the time

- I am/was a broadcast television/video engineer in the first part of my career; my company led the transition to digital in broadcast and broadcast quality and broadcast compression is way above consumer visual quality; I literally couldn't watch anything on consumer digital cable or consumer digital satellite for a decade after stopping work on broadcast equipment until my eyes/brain finally mostly stopped seeing the compression artifacts instead of the artistic content itself; I still notice it constantly (and now with adaptive streaming), but it only triggers an internal sardonic smile now

Point is, once you start down the path of improving audio/visual quality, nothing will ever be good enough again and it quite literally takes some of the enjoyment out of the music and video content itself. At least it did for me.

Having said all that, I am in the process of re-ripping all my CDs to FLAC for archival purposes and since storage is cheap now, using FLAC in the X5 as well — doesn't hurt and simpler by having fewer duplicates.
A lot of truth in this post and echos some of my experiences as well. Music has always been a major part of my life. I was a classically trained pianist, started playing at age 5. stopped as a teenager as sports took over, which was fine as i was fortunate to play baseball in college.

not only did i play music but also grew up as a serious audiophile. my system would grow and improve over the years and loved every second of it. fortunately my brother is a manufacturer in the high end audio accessories industry. I have access to the best gear in the world.

I always had a dedicated listening room in the house which was great, but as any audiophile knows the room is the limiting factor. Great gear in a crappy room will sound like crap. the room had some faults but i always loved it and had some amazing sound. Still on the quest for sonic nirvana (it is like a drug) i built a purpose built structure in my yard. think pool house but for audio LOL. Everything from electrical, sound treatments, etc. was built with a single focus. My wife used to laugh/complain that my room only had 1 chair in it lol. Not that she would ever want to sit there and listen - because, most people are unable to actually just "sit" and listen to music. the new room was the same. one chair and btw, this was 2 channel audio only. no video, no surround, etc. I had tens of thousands of LP's and CD's in my collection.

The "room" took quite a bit of time to build but came out absolutely beautiful and sounded amazing. I had many manufacturers come thru that were awe struck with the sound.

This all came with a serious negative. the ever ending chase for perfect sound - both from the hardware and software. I can't tell you how many copies of Sgt. Pepper i have on LP LOL. British, mono, stereo, first pressing, etc. etc. From just a hardware perspective - turntable, tone arm, cartridge, amp, preamp, DAC, transport, speakers the retail price of the system was well into the 6 figures.

Most people would kill for such a setup and i'm extremely fortunate I was able to put something like this together. I've since sold off everything and the pool house is actually now a pool house! I was unable to enjoy the music for the sake of the music. Every listening session turned into a critical review. As mentioned above, most recordings are awful. Play an awful recording on such a system and it's frustrating. The warts come thru so completely it's amazing.

It is interesting how certain genres and specifically, certain artists are so consistent with the quality of sound on their recordings. Both good and bad. I was always amazed how an artist, or their mastering engineer could listen back to a recording and say "yep, that sounds good".

Anyway, enjoy the music on whatever you listen with and if it sounds good to you then it's good.
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      03-25-2020, 05:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by tellch00 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
Since you have the car, it's an easy test for yourself. I am not just intentionally being an ass (that's usually natural rather than intentional), it is that only you can really decide in your own environment and your own media. A few comments to support this assertion:

- lots of people here recommend Tidal so I gave it a serious shot; nothing wrong with it and their artist remunerations ARE apparently better than Spotify, but it didn't make enough of a difference against Spotify in any of my tested environments (including G05 HK system) to justify re-confusing my family and their existing playlists on Spotify, so I didn't subscribe after the trial; that's a me decision, I am 100% certain many others have different priorities

- a long time ago I had made some money and was convinced by my best friend to upgrade my main audio system including way better speakers, amp, and CD player; one of worst decisions of my life (not really, still happy with that equipment); the problem is once you have good equipment, you learn that lots of recordings are crap; I couldn't bear to listen to some of my favourite CDs at the time

- I am/was a broadcast television/video engineer in the first part of my career; my company led the transition to digital in broadcast and broadcast quality and broadcast compression is way above consumer visual quality; I literally couldn't watch anything on consumer digital cable or consumer digital satellite for a decade after stopping work on broadcast equipment until my eyes/brain finally mostly stopped seeing the compression artifacts instead of the artistic content itself; I still notice it constantly (and now with adaptive streaming), but it only triggers an internal sardonic smile now

Point is, once you start down the path of improving audio/visual quality, nothing will ever be good enough again and it quite literally takes some of the enjoyment out of the music and video content itself. At least it did for me.

Having said all that, I am in the process of re-ripping all my CDs to FLAC for archival purposes and since storage is cheap now, using FLAC in the X5 as well — doesn't hurt and simpler by having fewer duplicates.
A lot of truth in this post and echos some of my experiences as well. Music has always been a major part of my life. I was a classically trained pianist, started playing at age 5. stopped as a teenager as sports took over, which was fine as i was fortunate to play baseball in college.

not only did i play music but also grew up as a serious audiophile. my system would grow and improve over the years and loved every second of it. fortunately my brother is a manufacturer in the high end audio accessories industry. I have access to the best gear in the world.

I always had a dedicated listening room in the house which was great, but as any audiophile knows the room is the limiting factor. Great gear in a crappy room will sound like crap. the room had some faults but i always loved it and had some amazing sound. Still on the quest for sonic nirvana (it is like a drug) i built a purpose built structure in my yard. think pool house but for audio LOL. Everything from electrical, sound treatments, etc. was built with a single focus. My wife used to laugh/complain that my room only had 1 chair in it lol. Not that she would ever want to sit there and listen - because, most people are unable to actually just "sit" and listen to music. the new room was the same. one chair and btw, this was 2 channel audio only. no video, no surround, etc. I had tens of thousands of LP's and CD's in my collection.

The "room" took quite a bit of time to build but came out absolutely beautiful and sounded amazing. I had many manufacturers come thru that were awe struck with the sound.

This all came with a serious negative. the ever ending chase for perfect sound - both from the hardware and software. I can't tell you how many copies of Sgt. Pepper i have on LP LOL. British, mono, stereo, first pressing, etc. etc. From just a hardware perspective - turntable, tone arm, cartridge, amp, preamp, DAC, transport, speakers the retail price of the system was well into the 6 figures.

Most people would kill for such a setup and i'm extremely fortunate I was able to put something like this together. I've since sold off everything and the pool house is actually now a pool house! I was unable to enjoy the music for the sake of the music. Every listening session turned into a critical review. As mentioned above, most recordings are awful. Play an awful recording on such a system and it's frustrating. The warts come thru so completely it's amazing.

It is interesting how certain genres and specifically, certain artists are so consistent with the quality of sound on their recordings. Both good and bad. I was always amazed how an artist, or their mastering engineer could listen back to a recording and say "yep, that sounds good".

Anyway, enjoy the music on whatever you listen with and if it sounds good to you then it's good.
Nice! What's your go-to natural (not test signal) recording for best source material testing? Ideally on CD and available — I am not restarting turntables just for this :-).

Mine so far, I think, is Holly Cole's Don't Smoke In Bed CD (I know, should have gotten the SACD ...).
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      03-26-2020, 09:53 AM   #11
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Wow, there were so many tracks/albums i'd use. most of them LP but we won't go there LOL. It didn't necessarily have to be a reference level recording, but something i really liked and new really well I would also use.

I would also make sure i was using different genres. as you already know (based on your reference disc) female, and or singer/songwriter was always a great place to start. I also used to use Led Zeppelin II on vinyl. An AMAZING recording. anyway, here are some CD's I used to use. Not sure if companies like Classic Records or Analog Productions are still around but they made some amazing reissues.

Bill Evans Trio Waltz for Debby (Analog productions)
B.B. King Live at the Regal
The Beatles 2009 Mono reissues is really interesting
Byron Janis Pictures at an Exhibition
Fritz Reiner and Chicago Symphony Schereazarde (Classic Records)
James Taylor "Enough to be on your way" from Hourglass
Neil Young Live at Massey Hall (classic records did it on vinyl but i think CD as well)
Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat
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      03-28-2020, 11:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzfnctional View Post
After a couple days owning my X5, I regret not upgrading to HK or BW. Does anyone know if there are any differences if I listen to music - FLAC files vs. mp3 on the BMW Hifi system? Just wondering... Thanks in advance
I’ve owned both the bass stereo and the HK
Big difference
Base doesn’t have enough power and the tweeters suck
That’s usually the weakest area of most OEM stereos
I upgraded the 2 door tweeters and replaced the center speaker with another one from BMW that had logic 7 I got used on eBay
And it made a big difference
Both very easy upgrades

Now I have the HK and I don’t feel I need to upgrade anything
The tweeters on HK are very good
Bass is very good
Obviously would be better with a trunk mount 10 or 12” sub
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      03-30-2020, 05:50 AM   #13
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Can someone post their optimal HK equalizer settings?
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      03-31-2020, 06:11 PM   #14
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have the HK system in the F15, have the B&W in the g05. Once you hear the B&W, its hard to go back. i don't even feel like listening to music in the F15 anymore. And I don't feel like listening to podcasts/radio in the g05. The B&W system is that good. even car reviewers rave about how good it is. It's expensive, and if you're a casual listener, just go with the HK system. I, however, love music, and it relaxes me and I doubt I'll never have another BMW without the B&W system in it
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      03-31-2020, 08:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thereef510 View Post
have the HK system in the F15, have the B&W in the g05. Once you hear the B&W, its hard to go back. i don't even feel like listening to music in the F15 anymore. And I don't feel like listening to podcasts/radio in the g05. The B&W system is that good. even car reviewers rave about how good it is. It's expensive, and if you're a casual listener, just go with the HK system. I, however, love music, and it relaxes me and I doubt I'll never have another BMW without the B&W system in it
Which HK System do you have in the F15? I believe there are two HK systems for the X5. There is a significant difference between the base HK system and the surround sound HK system in the X5.

The basic standard optioned system is the SA 676. The upgraded surround sound HK system is SA 688.

I have the SA 688 in my X7 and I'm satisfied overall. I would have ordered the B&W system if I knew it was available when I placed my order. However, that being said, I doubt I would have been completely satisfied with the B&W system either. Comparing a car to my high end home system would be futile and the car will never sound nearly as good as my home system.

Just like another poster pointed out. Seeking Audio Nirvana will force you down the "Rabbit Hole" on a never ending journey to unattainable Audio Bliss.
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      04-03-2020, 10:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch57 View Post
Which HK System do you have in the F15? I believe there are two HK systems for the X5. There is a significant difference between the base HK system and the surround sound HK system in the X5.

The basic standard optioned system is the SA 676. The upgraded surround sound HK system is SA 688.

I have the SA 688 in my X7 and I'm satisfied overall. I would have ordered the B&W system if I knew it was available when I placed my order. However, that being said, I doubt I would have been completely satisfied with the B&W system either. Comparing a car to my high end home system would be futile and the car will never sound nearly as good as my home system.

Just like another poster pointed out. Seeking Audio Nirvana will force you down the "Rabbit Hole" on a never ending journey to unattainable Audio Bliss.
our F15 has the 'upgraded' HK system. I didnt realize the base system was also an HK system. In any case, I like the HK system just fine, it performs well at moderate volumes but just cant keep up at high volumes. The B&W can get ear splittingly loud and still maintain absolute clarity. There's nothing lacking in that system. Hell my ears get fatigued before the system does and then I turn it down. I have 3 very good audio systems at home and I can honestly say that this sound system really does replicate you being in a much larger space than you are in. The sound dynamics have to be heard to be appreciated. Unfortunately, now I cant ever go back to the HK system in a future car.
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      04-03-2020, 12:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3284me View Post
Can someone post their optimal HK equalizer settings?
I used these settings for my F15 and now G05:
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=25594052
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      04-12-2020, 03:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Auricom View Post
I used these settings for my F15 and now G05:
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=25594052
Thank you, These settings sound great! Very happy with the HK.
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      04-14-2020, 06:20 AM   #19
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I did an upgrade using 3way speaker system focal beryllium. I love it
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      04-14-2020, 10:31 PM   #20
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Lots of discussion on this one. I went with HK, and didn't really give it too much thought. Last summer we completed a media room at home with 9.4.2 sound. My speakers of choice were B&W and KEF, and had the chance to listen to both floorstanding at home. I recall the B&W were sharp, bright and clinical (603s for those who care), and the KEFs (first Q750, then R7s) were warmer and more balanced/natural to my ear.

Both were amazing, but was interested to learn more about manufacturers interpretation of sound, and what they want you to hear.

That's why I went HK, and more than happy. Having said that, I wish I'd just gone B&W as sometimes wish the HK had more power.
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      07-24-2020, 07:38 AM   #21
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Bowers AMP

Hi,

I got speakers set with RAM and Booster from a car with Bowers & Wilkins Diamond Surround Sound system, which I would like to install in my car.
The old stereo is standard hifi with 6 speakers.
I noted that some cables are missing (at least the one in the center console) but I am not sure about the rest (doors and D-pillar).
Do you know if the existing cables would allow installing the Bowers system?

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...tem/1VneI7rxrK
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      07-24-2020, 09:20 AM   #22
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Scheherazade (Sir Thomas Beecham's 1958 Royal Philharmonic recording), has always been my go-to for comparing audio systems, home or auto. For the dynamic range, as well as the sublime third movement violin solo, most easily marred of any piece of music ever written, by the equipment. I can say that the B&W system, coupled with acoustic glass, makes my BMW the only car I've owned that can reproduce it faithfully in a car.

Last edited by Paladin1; 07-24-2020 at 10:29 AM..
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