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      09-19-2020, 03:54 PM   #1
UpstateCP
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Why the delay with OTA updates?

If there is new software available why isn't this just pushed out to all compatible vehicles OTA when it's available? Why the many months delay if it's ever available at all? 07/2020 is clearly being installed in new vehicles so it's glitch free enough, why can't I get this vs. being stuck on a dated version? What's the point of OTA updates if you can't get the new ones when they're available similar to iOS in iPhones?
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      09-19-2020, 05:08 PM   #2
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Safety.
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      09-19-2020, 08:36 PM   #3
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Safety.
Care to elaborate?
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      09-19-2020, 09:05 PM   #4
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Care to elaborate?
Often when a dealer is doing the updates they fail and need to be redone. At this stage it would not be practical to have OTA updates try an install a version that has not been in the field for quite awhile. That seems to be why they are using at least an N-1 version approach to the OTA updates.
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      09-20-2020, 02:11 AM   #5
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Safety.
Care to elaborate?
They brick your car in the dealership it's a minor inconvenience, do it remotely and it's at best a major hassle and at worst dangerous.
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      09-20-2020, 08:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by UpstateCP View Post
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Originally Posted by ifr View Post
Safety.
Care to elaborate?
They brick your car in the dealership it's a minor inconvenience, do it remotely and it's at best a major hassle and at worst dangerous.
So why even include OTA updates with these vehicles if it's so dangerous and the technology isn't reliable?
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      09-20-2020, 08:22 AM   #7
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So why even include OTA updates with these vehicles if it's so dangerous and the technology isn't reliable?
What you want is dangerous.

What BMW are delivering is in an attempt to minimise risk. Lots of people are safely getting full car upgrades OTA that they wouldn't have otherwise received.

Some have had issues OTA even n-1.

If you want something else buy a Tesla - they deliver updates much more frequently but the models have been designed from the ground up with that in mind and there are limited models and configurations.

Comparing a full car multiple ECU software upgrade on a 2-3 tonne weapon with an iphone is mad

Last edited by ifr; 09-20-2020 at 08:34 AM..
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      09-20-2020, 08:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpstateCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpstateCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifr View Post
Safety.
Care to elaborate?
They brick your car in the dealership it's a minor inconvenience, do it remotely and it's at best a major hassle and at worst dangerous.
So why even include OTA updates with these vehicles if it's so dangerous and the technology isn't reliable?
@ifr: that's not that bad of a question.

I'll speculate: they are doing OTA at all only because a) they marketed it aggressively pre-sales, and b) were on the cusp of false advertising-based lawsuits in some markets.

It is pretty clearly not actually ready for reliable mass deployment, mostly because it is bolted on top of complex legacy update facilities (both technical and logistical) and that legacy is not good enough for continuous technician-hands-off updates in customer hands. I don't hold that against BMW too much and they clearly need to get to it sooner than later, so the deployments that do happen now force and crystallize the design (ie alpha/beta testing). But I do hold against them the a) BS marketing, and the b) BS dealer software updates (lack of) motivation setup.
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      09-20-2020, 08:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
@ifr: that's not that bad of a question.

I'll speculate: they are doing OTA at all only because a) they marketed it aggressively pre-sales, and b) were on the cusp of false advertising-based lawsuits in some markets.

It is pretty clearly not actually ready for reliable mass deployment, mostly because it is bolted on top of complex legacy update facilities (both technical and logistical) and that legacy is not good enough for continuous technician hands-off updates in customer hands. I don't hold that against BMW too much, but I do hold the a) BS marketing, and the b) BS dealer software updates (lack of) motivation setup.
Who said it was dangerous and who said it was unreliable?

First release software is performed at the dealer and issues resolved locally and fed back to dev. OTA is last point release of the previous software version with most fixes applied.

OTA s a different more robust process than ISTA programming at the dealer.

I knew I shouldn't have commented on a thread about upgrades and Im seriously not getting into your anti BMW BS again
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      09-20-2020, 08:45 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by ifr View Post
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Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
@ifr: that's not that bad of a question.

I'll speculate: they are doing OTA at all only because a) they marketed it aggressively pre-sales, and b) were on the cusp of false advertising-based lawsuits in some markets.

It is pretty clearly not actually ready for reliable mass deployment, mostly because it is bolted on top of complex legacy update facilities (both technical and logistical) and that legacy is not good enough for continuous technician hands-off updates in customer hands. I don't hold that against BMW too much, but I do hold the a) BS marketing, and the b) BS dealer software updates (lack of) motivation setup.
Who said it was dangerous and who said it was unreliable?

First release software is performed at the dealer and issues resolved locally and fed back to dev. OTA is last point release of the previous software version with most fixes applied. i

OTA s a different more robust process than ISTA programming at the dealer.

I knew I shouldn't have commented on a thread about upgrades and Im seriously not getting into your anti BMW BS again
I am actually slightly defending BMW, at least their legacy engineering
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      09-20-2020, 08:47 AM   #11
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I am actually slightly defending BMW, at least their legacy engineering
its a cold day in hell ....
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      09-20-2020, 08:54 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ifr View Post
First release software is performed at the dealer and issues resolved locally and fed back to dev. OTA is last point release of the previous software version with most fixes applied.
May I point something out about this without an excess of emotion? This is what the OP has not fully understood so a good reminder for them, but that's not what I want to point out. Rather, I will point out that it doesn't seem likely that the last point release of a major cycle is "bug free" or even particularly high quality — rather, it is simply the last point release before next major release cycle is due to start. Theoretically it IS the least buggy of all the point releases of a major cycle, but it's not likely (no evidence) they stop point releases when it is finally GOOD, they rather stop the point releases when it is time for a major release.
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      09-20-2020, 09:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
May I point something out about this without an excess of emotion? This is what the OP has not fully understood so a good reminder for them, but that's not what I want to point out. Rather, I will point out that it doesn't seem likely that the last point release of a major cycle is "bug free" or even particularly high quality — rather, it is simply the last point release before next major release cycle is due to start. Theoretically it IS the least buggy of all the point releases of a major cycle, but it's not likely (no evidence) they stop point releases when it is finally GOOD, they rather stop the point releases when it is time for a major release.
Yep that's why I said 'most fixes applied'.

I very much doubt BMW would release OTA unless it was fit for purpose, and even then as we have seen, it's a staged rollout. Low hanging fruit first I would suggest. CA last

What I'm not sure about is when BMW stop developing the previous version. Timescale wise it seems they continue to develop a version of i-step specifically with RSU in-mind. We know it can be many months after a new i-step major branch has been released before the older version is delivered OTA.

Last edited by ifr; 09-20-2020 at 09:32 AM..
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      09-20-2020, 09:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
@ifr: that's not that bad of a question.

I'll speculate: they are doing OTA at all only because a) they marketed it aggressively pre-sales, and b) were on the cusp of false advertising-based lawsuits in some markets.

It is pretty clearly not actually ready for reliable mass deployment, mostly because it is bolted on top of complex legacy update facilities (both technical and logistical) and that legacy is not good enough for continuous technician-hands-off updates in customer hands. I don't hold that against BMW too much and they clearly need to get to it sooner than later, so the deployments that do happen now force and crystallize the design (ie alpha/beta testing). But I do hold against them the a) BS marketing, and the b) BS dealer software updates (lack of) motivation setup.
What he said. Even the first round of a (relatively) stable 11/2019.70 bricked a few cars according to our dealership, which had to be towed to the dealer. In my n of two - two 40is - this update actually fixed my misaligned parking cameras, but bolixed my spouse's perfectly-working cameras - with the split screen reversed, misaligned-overlay-and-dark-line down-the-screen issue. What else it did I have no idea, but as far as spouse's car, dealership is currently scratching their collective heads (or other anatomy), and trying to fix it. It's all fun and games until somebody shoots their eye out...
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      09-20-2020, 09:53 AM   #15
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What he said. Even the first round of a (relatively) stable 11/2019.70 bricked a few cars according to our dealership, which had to be towed to the dealer. In my n of two - two 40is - this update actually fixed my misaligned parking cameras, but bolixed my spouse's perfectly-working cameras - with the split screen reversed, misaligned-overlay-and-dark-line down-the-screen issue. What else it did I have no idea, but as far as spouse's car, dealership is currently scratching their collective heads (or other anatomy), and trying to fix it. It's all fun and games until somebody shoots their eye out...
07/2019 was the very first OTA by BMW and there was bound to be issues with the upgrade process.

The functional issues you described would have happened regardless of delivery method. Not a great experience but RSU not to blame

Any reason the dealership didn't upgrade your missus car to 07/2020.x? Suspect that would fix as its a known issue I believe.
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      09-20-2020, 10:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifr View Post
07/2019 was the very first OTA by BMW and there was bound to be issues with the upgrade process.

The functional issues you described would have happened regardless of delivery method. Not a great experience but RSU not to blame

Any reason the dealership didn't upgrade your missus car to 07/2020.x? Suspect that would fix as its a known issue I believe.
Unknown whether related to RSU or not (and certainly no conclusion to be drawn based on two examples) - I would point out that the issues with spouse's 40i didn't happen with mine, identically configured and equipped, installed OTA as well, and actually within minutes of each other. Spouse's is still at the dealer and they are "working on it." But, according to them, "having problems." So any update to something as complex as software controlling a 2 ton vehicle can have "issues." "Issues" with an OTA update are left to the owner to sort out, hence, not innocuous, and I've actually written code for PCs, so not a novice at replacing software code (just not in cars). The technology is obviously possible, and works. At this point, very apparently not consistently, proof of concept in this case in real world trial.
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      09-20-2020, 11:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Paladin1 View Post
Unknown whether related to RSU or not (and certainly no conclusion to be drawn based on two examples) - I would point out that the issues with spouse's 40i didn't happen with mine, identically configured and equipped, installed OTA as well, and actually within minutes of each other. Spouse's is still at the dealer and they are "working on it." But, according to them, "having problems." So any update to something as complex as software controlling a 2 ton vehicle can have "issues." "Issues" with an OTA update are left to the owner to sort out, hence, not innocuous, and I've actually written code for PCs, so not a novice at replacing software code (just not in cars). The technology is obviously possible, and works. At this point, very apparently not consistently, proof of concept in this case in real world trial.
I'd be asking them what the 'issues' are.

I do my own programming updates so understand the ISTA (dealership) upgrade process intimately. RSU not so much but the end result should be the same - all applicable ECU programmed to the target i-step, and a recode of each ECU after the programming to use the new coding settings for your car's factory order config.

Issues can occur but they are evident in the coding report. With identical vehicles there can be issues due to a non user displayed fault, such as a KAFAS camera, or parking cams, but when programmed with ISTA it warns about these pre-existing faults. I would be surprised if the RSU process was not at least as pedantic as I know it checks for faults, battery status, battery charge, block codes, etc.

They should simply program to latest i-step, but maybe they can't do that for some reason? Ask if the ISTA test report shows anything and can you have a copy.
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      09-20-2020, 11:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ifr View Post
I'd be asking them what the 'issues' are.

I do my own programming updates so understand the ISTA (dealership) upgrade process intimately. RSU not so much but the end result should be the same - all applicable ECU programmed to the target i-step, and a recode of each ECU after the programming to use the new coding settings for your car's factory order config.

Issues can occur but they are evident in the coding report. With identical vehicles there can be issues due to a non user displayed fault, such as a KAFAS camera, or parking cams, but when programmed with ISTA it warns about these pre-existing faults. I would be surprised if the RSU process was not at least as pedantic as I know it checks for faults, battery status, battery charge, block codes, etc.

They should simply program to latest i-step, but maybe they can't do that for some reason? Ask if the ISTA test report shows anything and can you have a copy.
Understood and agree. Left the car Friday afternoon and just got a text message - conversation to ensue Monday. In my opinion should just be a straightforward update to latest block, whatever that might be.
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      09-20-2020, 02:43 PM   #19
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Something similar just happened to me. Finally got home from a trip and did the upgrade. Everything seemed fine at first (integrated Spotify is cool) until I went to park and the backup camera is all mangled now. The view seems to be flipped with the surround view now on the left and the actual rear view on the right on the screen, and the lines are misaligned.

Then I noticed that the interior lighting doesn’t work - pushing the light buttons does nothing.

Finally, the rear lower tailgate stopped working (had to remove some luggage). I can move it manually but the button doesn’t seem to do anything anymore.

Sounds like the only option is to call the dealer?

By the way would you say the car remains safe to drive for the time being despite the issues or hard to say now?
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      09-20-2020, 03:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by BeemerDreamerNYC View Post
Something similar just happened to me. Finally got home from a trip and did the upgrade. Everything seemed fine at first (integrated Spotify is cool) until I went to park and the backup camera is all mangled now. The view seems to be flipped with the surround view now on the left and the actual rear view on the right on the screen, and the lines are misaligned.

Then I noticed that the interior lighting doesn’t work - pushing the light buttons does nothing.

Finally, the rear lower tailgate stopped working (had to remove some luggage). I can move it manually but the button doesn’t seem to do anything anymore.

Sounds like the only option is to call the dealer?

By the way would you say the car remains safe to drive for the time being despite the issues or hard to say now?
We drove spouse's car with no problems (other than goofy cameras we could no longer trust), and actually interior lights work. Didn't check the tailgate that I recall.... Dealer is it, and by report an update fixes - not sure which update, but presumably the latest.
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      09-20-2020, 03:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Paladin1 View Post
We drove spouse's car with no problems (other than goofy cameras we could no longer trust), and actually interior lights work. Didn't check the tailgate that I recall.... Dealer is it, and by report an update fixes - not sure which update, but presumably the latest.
Ok cool - good to hear as I’ve been out of the office for 2 weeks and won’t be able to deal with it for a few days at least. My car did just get out of the shop a few weeks ago so I’ll give the service guy I dealt with at the dealership a call. Hopefully will be able to get a loaner in the meantime from him.

By interior lights I didn’t mean the long light strips that change colors, I meant the overhead lights that normally turn on when you open the door / have the buttons to manually turn on, in case that makes any difference.
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      09-20-2020, 04:21 PM   #22
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Ok cool - good to hear as I’ve been out of the office for 2 weeks and won’t be able to deal with it for a few days at least. My car did just get out of the shop a few weeks ago so I’ll give the service guy I dealt with at the dealership a call. Hopefully will be able to get a loaner in the meantime from him.

By interior lights I didn’t mean the long light strips that change colors, I meant the overhead lights that normally turn on when you open the door / have the buttons to manually turn on, in case that makes any difference.
Got it - I think the overhead lights worked, but honestly can't recall. No problem driving though, and the instrument cluster and iDrive screen worked normally (cameras excepted). Will be interested to see if/when the dealership fixes - we have the car in for annual service and some other work, so I'm expecting at least a couple of days. Will let you know....
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