[STEALERHSIPS GONE SOON]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Why don’t you check out CR reliability surveys by brand. It considers many more data points. You are pointing out anecdotal data points. An iPhone is assembled in China with most of the major components made in the USA under strict Apple guidelines. Apple also designs the machines that make many of the iPhone parts for instance. This is the case with many products like high end cars. See where the major components are made. A BMW is a BMW not because the plastic in the trunk is sourced from China.

But like someone said, you can believe anything you want…

BMW (like Apple and others) can raise and maintain prices as long as consumers are willing to pay. Read my comment earlier, I said BMW is increasing margin but are still a better value than their competitors. IMHO. That is just how the free market works…for instance, some may not like the new design direction of BMW, but their quality and reliability is up….

After trimming out the overblurb, I think you should show more respect to the people spending time on this forum.
If they are "anecdotal" - then don't forget you are part of the same category so why someone should be listening to an "anecdotal" whatever?


Go tell those guys they are "anecdotal" :

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2018775

https://g07.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1971419

Just count the incidence of such a serious issue in a BRAND NEW bmw, in just two threads, and then come back report the findings.

The ongoing depreciating quality of bmw vehicles paired with the biannual price increase scheme does not get blurred by some corporate speeches.

[TurtleBoy]

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[hufington]

Unfortunately, complacency is an attitude that one develops when one enjoys prolonged comfort and when one becomes too concerned about his/her own well-being, that one remains unconscious of the dangers that may lie ahead.

In this case, the danger is that BMW is guiding their potential buyers toward accepting higher prices and added fees.

During the pandemic and chip shortage, they realized that people may be more complacent than they thought and they decided to put to use for their profitability. They used lower supply and disruptions to car sales throughout the ongoing pandemic to increase the prices of all their offered lines and even came up with an absurdly expensive vehicle that no one asked for, the XM. That car is there to justify all the other increased prices and to make those prices look small in comparison.

Toyota started Scion brand to have entry level offerings as well as to increase Toyota brand base models' prices. A 2001 Corolla was starting at 12K (that's 18K if adjusted for inflation) and a 2023 Corolla starts around 22K. It is 4K difference (or more than 20%) after adjusting for inflation, which is a lot.

[eelnoraa]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I do think we can all vote with our wallet. If BWM or any manufactures become unreasonable, I will sure not long drive their cars.

As for BWM dealers, maybe I am lucky, or I have very little interaction with them. I don't find too many issues. I have always been able to buy below MSRP without much offorts. The only time I visit dealer is when I buy the car, or for included maintenance, or for warranty/recall repair. Post warranty period, I do not go to dealer at all. One of the reason is because they are expansive. But more than that, dealer mechanics actually don't "repair" enough older cars to know how to repair them properly. Mechanics know the car well and have lots experience, don't work at dealers anyway. If you have to count on dealers to do repair and maintenance, you are bound to get ripped off.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

It's not bad news unless you choose to buy a BMW at above market prices. Unless you are that person who just has to have a marked up car regardless of what it costs, this news from BMW has absolutely no effect on your pocketbook.

Regarding BMW dealers being stealerships: Again, each of us has a choice to buy from a BMW dealer or get our vehicle serviced at a BMW dealer. They can't rip you off unless you are a willing participant. It's simple to me. Just don't be that person.

In my case, my last 3 new BMW purchases have been about 5% below MSRP after negotiation on my part. I'd never pay over sticker so this bad news to which you refer doesn't matter at all. Even on the service side, I got the BMW dealer for service during the free maintenance period (3 years). After that, it's straight to my trusty independent that I've used for over 20 years.

You are clearly upset at BMW. That's okay. Maybe it's time for you to move to another brand for awhile. It's not a crime for them to want to make a profit. It's exactly why they exist. It's literally the CEO's job description.

There is the aspect of it being unbecoming of a brand.

You don't see authorized Apple retailers marking up iPhones when they get scarce. Even when Apple has huge delays on when you can take delivery, like they often do around new iPhone time. Making the customer feel gouged sours their longterm loyalty to a brand. Some customers will grit their teeth and pay it and some will start looking at your competition and they might not come back soon -- or ever.

Many brands have taken punitive action against dealerships to force them to sell at MSRP. As they can do. Shame BMW isn't doing the same.

Definitely works in the short term, but I do think the sour relationship between BMW owners and BMW dealerships will become a liability for them. Continued consolidation in the dealership industry will make them increasingly vulnerable to competitive pressure amongst the dealership network. For instance, a BMW dealership steering customers to the Mercedes dealership they own next door since Mercedes has better incentives and so on... Easy to do when the dealerships are increasingly owned by a few companies.

[Aimster82]

BMW was attractive for the 10%+ discount ..if those days don't return then it's better to look into Mercedes IMO

[Larryatl]

Originally Posted by trife.

I agree to a point. The problem is that the low supply isn’t organic at this point. BMW, along with every other car manufacturer, learned from the pandemic years that they could keep supply on lots extremely low and still have amazing profits. This is just a carryover from that and is precisely how things will be moving forward.

Have you been to a bmw dealer lately? The ones I’ve been to are stocked heavily with new X5

[Chonkapotamus]

Originally Posted by remeeno

After trimming out the overblurb, I think you should show more respect to the people spending time on this forum.
If they are "anecdotal" - then don't forget you are part of the same category so why someone should be listening to an "anecdotal" whatever?


Go tell those guys they are "anecdotal" :

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2018775

https://g07.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1971419

Just count the incidence of such a serious issue in a BRAND NEW bmw, in just two threads, and then come back report the findings.

The ongoing depreciating quality of bmw vehicles paired with the biannual price increase scheme does not get blurred by some corporate speeches.

Car enthusiast forums like this necessarily lead to selection bias issues. The overwhelming majority of satisfied car owners are not motivated to post on a forum about the absence of problems with their cars. They are motivated by other things. One of the biggest motivators is when their car has a problem, and they seek out others who experienced the problem. Net result, if you only judge a car brand by the worst of the problems on its discussion forums, you'd think they are all rolling disasters.

This isn't just a BMW thing. In my home we've owned / driven BMW, Acura, Audi, Jaguar, and Infiniti vehicles in the past decade. I've been active on forums for all those brands. I've also lurked the forums for Volvo as we've come close to buying one several times. This X5 forum is completely in line with all the others when it comes to severity and frequency of new car problems. Yes, each brand has its own type of problems. But they all have that ONE BIG ISSUE that is going to be the death of the brand in the opinion of the owners who have suffered through it.

[STEALERHSIPS GONE SOON]

Originally Posted by Chonkapotamus

Car enthusiast forums like this necessarily lead to selection bias issues. The overwhelming majority of satisfied car owners are not motivated to post on a forum about the absence of problems with their cars. They are motivated by other things. One of the biggest motivators is when their car has a problem, and they seek out others who experienced the problem. Net result, if you only judge a car brand by the worst of the problems on its discussion forums, you'd think they are all rolling disasters.

This isn't just a BMW thing. In my home we've owned / driven BMW, Acura, Audi, Jaguar, and Infiniti vehicles in the past decade. I've been active on forums for all those brands. I've also lurked the forums for Volvo as we've come close to buying one several times. This X5 forum is completely in line with all the others when it comes to severity and frequency of new car problems. Yes, each brand has its own type of problems. But they all have that ONE BIG ISSUE that is going to be the death of the brand in the opinion of the owners who have suffered through it.

If you are curious to shuffle through other topics on this forum, you will find out that is not just one issue - there are multiple issues. I don't judge a vehicle by it problems BUT showing an exaggerated occurrence of issues for the premium price paid, that certainly does not add positive points. I tend to look at how they keep their identity, I consider the way they adapt to the market, whether they are a trailblazer or a follower. bmw has been declining rapidly and honestly, if you look at a number of bmw reviews you'll very often hear "It will grow on me".

bmw used to be aspirational but has gradually became something that will grow on you....

hat you tried to portray - that people have a tendency to mostly complain on these forums might not be quite accurate. I only complain just when I have an issue with these vehicles. Not a smart idea to make it an axiom with no actual proof! As you can see, I talk about things I know, I speak about me. And if you look at my postings, they will say the same.
This guys for example are a big group that you don't see whining once every 5 postings on this forum, while their problem is very real. I wouldn't minimize any problem or try to make it disappear unless I'd be directly interested in doing so.
https://join.classaction.org/bmw-sunroof-leaks


...and there are issues of different kinds, not just related to the technical aspect but to the way bmw sees fit to treat their customers and especially to the way bmw give up on their customers for the benefit of their stealership network! Longterm, as smart people on this forum out it, this might very well damage their brand on long term.

I can't wait see the old times, because they will come back.

[Black Beauty]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

.

I guess it all depends on location and dealerships. The dealership by me in Delaware does an up charge of $5000, the dealership I purchased at does not do that in Maryland.

I bought my F150 Hybrid from New Jersey because the did not upcharge only charged MSRP, Maryland and Delaware, VA were adding $10k and more.

Need to shop around.

[MartieNYBK]

Originally Posted by Aimster82

BMW was attractive for the 10%+ discount ..if those days don't return then it's better to look into Mercedes IMO

I am in the market now. I want a loaded 4.0I but hopefully I will be able to get 8-10 percent off from MSRP.

[eelnoraa]

I am neutral on the existence of dealerships, because I am not sure eliminating them is necessary better. Prime example is tesla. Look at their pricing, it is a sea food market, changes big from time to time. Exactly 1 years ago, based Y is 67k, now 53k? And tesla further reduce price by $2k if order is placed before end of June. They are not any different then dealer markup. I am sure if car demand is higher than supply again, they will go back up faster than anyone else.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by MartieNYBK

I am in the market now. I want a loaded 4.0I but hopefully I will be able to get 8-10 percent off from MSRP.

Those are very hard, if not impossible to find. Look for ones without the period and it should be a lot easier and likely get a discount.

[smh410]

While not best case (less than msrp), if are in the NYC area, Rallye BMW is selling at MSRP.