[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by ksavostin

Although you are killing "fun" factor on your X5 driving it exclusively on electric. Hybrid eco pro is boring and slow, regular hybrid is okay but still no fun at all. It is kind of like buying Lamborghini and driving it only below 30mph.

But...the X5 is nowhere close to a M3....let alone a Lamborghini.... Check out this article regarding "driving experience"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.roa...hybrid-review/

[dynamic]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Turning this convo back to consumer choice...

Yesterday was a great use case for my 45e use. I drove exactly 20 miles around town yesterday. Made 3-4 short distance errands in urban driving. All of this was driven on electric.

I depleted about 66% of the battery and charged it up last night at $2.41.

Those same 20 miles would have cost me a bit more than $5 in gasoline for a comparably sized SUV.

So my local energy costs makes driving the 45e in EV the equivalent of $2.50 gas.

Could I afford $5 yesterday ($100 per 2 weeks to fill up what's my pace with my X5D)? Yes. Do I want to knowing I could do it literally I half the cost? Nope.


And btw, I'm not even talking about environmental/emissions/foreign oil dependence impact

Lastly I was thinking, next time I refill gas (at current pace , sometime in Jan 2022), I'll only fill a 1/4 tank until a long distance trip. For me it makes no sense to carry around fuel weight when I don't need it.

I can't imagine living with that mindset. Save 2 bucks a day? Really?
Drinks at the bar are 10 bucks a throw. Decent deli cuts are 12 to 16 bucks a pound.
BTW, we were oil independent, why are we pleading with OPEC for more now?

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by dynamic

I can't imagine living with that mindset. Save 2 bucks a day? Really?
Drinks at the bar are 10 bucks a throw. Decent deli cuts are 12 to 16 bucks a pound.
BTW, we were oil independent, why are we pleading with OPEC for more now?

It adds up quick. 50mpg combined with little to no compromises. Why not?

[dynamic]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

that's something else to think about which has been discussed in other threads... unused fuel in the tank for a long (relative) period of time. leave at 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 tank to 'lighten' the load? i think the weight difference is negligible. what about fuel stabilizer? obvi, not a factor for ethanol-free fuel, but that's not offered for passenger vehicles where i live. though the tank is sealed and pressurized, where there's air, there'll be water in ~30 days for ethanol-containing fuels. personally, i added Sta-bil 360º since i go months without refueling, and i top it up if the tank is not full for >30 days since last fillup.

Exactly, this small amount of fuel by weight is really a non factor unless you are pinching pennies till your fingers bleed. Some guys might be more comfortable with the economy of a Prius.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by ksavostin

Although you are killing "fun" factor on your X5 driving it exclusively on electric. Hybrid eco pro is boring and slow, regular hybrid is okay but still no fun at all. It is kind of like buying Lamborghini and driving it only below 30mph.

u appear to drive in Sport/Sport+ modes mostly and defiant the electric motor assists while in that mode. well, you can actually thank the electric motor for the "fun" factor you're experiencing while in Sport/Sport+ modes.

between this forum and the FB group (which u just left), you don't seem happy with your 45e purchase, but maybe look at it this way. there are folks that buy the 45e and mainly use the EV part and use the ICE sometimes. then there are folks that mainly use the ICE part and use the EV sometimes. are you in the latter group? or do you feel after getting the 45e, you just prefer ICE?

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

[...] i'll only fill a 1/4 tank until a long distance trip. For me it makes no sense to carry around fuel weight when I don't need it.

that's something else to think about which has been discussed in other threads... unused fuel in the tank for a long (relative) period of time. leave at 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 tank to 'lighten' the load? i think the weight difference is negligible. what about fuel stabilizer? obvi, not a factor for ethanol-free fuel, but that's not offered for passenger vehicles where i live. though the tank is sealed and pressurized, where there's air, there'll be water in ~30 days for ethanol-containing fuels. personally, i add Sta-bil 360º since i go months without refueling, and i top it up if the tank is not full for >30 days since last fillup. maybe overkill, but the 45e has no fuel maintenance program. i realize i do should keep in mind the 'overall age' of the fuel in there and come up with some plan to use it all up at some point and refill with fresh fuel. (i guess it's good for the ICE, too.)

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by dynamic

I can't imagine living with that mindset. Save 2 bucks a day? Really?
Drinks at the bar are 10 bucks a throw. Decent deli cuts are 12 to 16 bucks a pound.
BTW, we were oil independent, why are we pleading with OPEC for more now?

Yes really. Since $2/day isn't important to you, I sent you my PayPal so you can cut me a $700 donation to me...since you know... it's just $2

[Killramos]

Originally Posted by allinon72

It adds up quick. 50mpg combined with little to no compromises. Why not?

The problem is it doesn’t add up quick. At 2 dollars a day savings it takes you over 6 years to payout the up front cost difference if the 45e vs the 40i. That’s actually pretty dreadful return on investment by any definition.

I’m not one to tell someone what to drive or not to drive, the 45e is nifty for sure. If you like it that’s great and that’s all that matters. But a smart financial choice? Not so much.

Unless you are one of those people who thinks taxpayers should subsidize your new BMW for that cost delta. just lol to that one.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by dynamic

Yessiree Bob! Government always knows best and can be counted on to show us sheep the way.

Anyone fearful of accountability & hard work will always try to blame others to side-step hard work; the lazy never want to take accountability for their shitty government, despite the government being THEM!

In the US, we ARE the government! we pick our representatives, and if those reps make shitty choices whose fault is it? OURS.

So the only choice for the honorable is, are you going to stop blaming others & get involved & self-govern? Or sit on your couch, finger-point, and whine?

Cause, like, self-governance is hard, and blame is easy.

As a grown man, I choose accountability over finger-pointing.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Killramos

The problem is it doesn’t add up quick. At 2 dollars a day savings it takes you over 6 years to payout the up front cost difference if the 45e vs the 40i. That’s actually pretty dreadful return on investment by any definition.

I’m not one to tell someone what to drive or not to drive, the 45e is nifty for sure. If you like it that’s great and that’s all that matters. But a smart financial choice? Not so much.

Unless you are one of those people who thinks taxpayers should subsidize your new BMW for that cost delta. just lol to that one.

My GF had a Civic Hybrid before. It had great fuel economy. It was all good until the car was about 8 years old and the hybrid battery failed. Once the hybrid battery fails, the CEL is trigger and the car will not pass emissions in MD. The replacement battery was about $2-3k which pretty much wiped out the fuel economy savings.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Killramos

The problem is it doesn't add up quick. At 2 dollars a day savings it takes you over 6 years to payout the up front cost difference if the 45e vs the 40i. That's actually pretty dreadful return on investment by any definition.

using the up-front cost difference isn't accurate, though, as most 45e purchasers (not lessees) will qualify and receive the full $7500 tax credit, making it cost less than the 40i

[dynamic]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Yes really. Since $2/day isn't important to you, I sent you my PayPal so you can cut me a $700 donation to me...since you know... it's just $2

I apologize. Didn't know that 2 bucks a day could really matter to guys buying $80,000 vehicles. Have you bought a beer at a Football or Hockey game in the last couple years?

[Killramos]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

using the up-front cost difference isn't accurate, though, as most 45e owners will qualify and receive the full $7500 tax credit, making it cost less than the 40i

Please refer to the last paragraph you left out lol

[Killramos]

Originally Posted by dynamic

I apologize. Didn't know that 2 bucks a day could really matter to guys buying $80,000 vehicles. Have you bought a beer at a Football or Hockey game in the last couple years?

You seem to have a very odd relationship with money in your life…

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

using the up-front cost difference isn't accurate, though, as most 45e purchasers (not lessees) will qualify and receive the full $7500 tax credit, making it cost less than the 40i

We have a MY Performance. It's basically become my DD because it is so much fun to drive. We get zero Fed rebates and while we charge at home and it is cheaper than ICE because of that, but to me it is an after thought. The convenience and fun factors are great. One reason we are planning for the iX.

Also, across the board the owner satisfaction for all the higher end EVs - Tesla, Audi, Porsche etc is very higher. I would think they rate higher than their ICE competitors at that price point…

FWIW, there are many pros to EVs and right now, PHEVs like the 45e are the perfect optimization for most people.

There is a reason Bugatti is now run by the founder of Rimac. Bugatti is in the business of making the ultimate driving machines - bar none, money no object. That itself is an indicator of the future. It's not just about the cost/price.

I doubt a Model Y will ever be cheaper to own than a Honda CRV - which has similar build quality. IMHO.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Killramos

Unless you are one of those people who thinks taxpayers should subsidize your new BMW for that cost delta. just lol to that one.[…]
Please refer to the last paragraph you left out lol

I'm confused, sincerely. AFAIK, the hybrid tax credit is a government subsidy. fellow taxpayers aren't "paying me". am I understanding this incorrectly?

[Frenetic]

Originally Posted by dynamic

LOL!
Does the energy to generate these enormous amounts of electricity needed to charge millions of EVs fall out of the sky?
Fossil fuels provided by the energy companies you refer to are the what balances this equation. Our electricity here is generated in a facility powered by abundant, clean, natural gas which works great and at a very reasonable rate.
I really doubt if even the most bug eyed tree hugger believes that wind mills and solar panels can come anywhere near close to doing this job. Fantasy land nonsense. The fossil fuel industry is going to be alive, quite well, and a good place to invest for a very long time. No great revalation in that statement.

The point I was trying to make is that eventually, EV adoption will be felt by oil companies; it's a quantifiable amount, and it should start to drive prices down, for oil and gas.

Not sure what you're getting so upset and defensive about. Stop jumping to conclusions.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Not to overstate it but ... this is one of those trite homespun cliches that's completely bogus. The reason is because of externalities and market failure:

Who built the freeways? Who defends shipping? Who negotiates trade agreements? Who fights wars to protect natural resources? Why have eminent domain? Who build airports? Who controls air traffic? Who controls space & satellites? Who makes sure your chicken isn't tainted? Who regulates medical devides? etc etc etc

Unless you want a 3rd World mess of infrastructure, "consumers picking what's best for them" is fail from the get-go. Freeways systems, energy systems, communications, shipping, trade, cities, etc all require central planning to be effective, cheap, and available.

"government is bad" is a failed idea by people too fearful to work together to do great things ... [COLOR="DarkRed"]Somehow it's gotten popular for capitalists forget about the[/COLOR] [COLOR="DarkRed"]"well regulated markets" part which is the whole key to capitalism.
[/COLOR]
Capitalism Best Practice
(1.) Government sets the rules & regulates the market & infrastructure
(2.) Companies compete for customers
(3.) Consumers pick the market winners

Ya gotta do all three - skipping step #1 courts disaster.

As a country (and as men) we need to stop picking heroes, take a deep breath, and do the hard work of getting everyone together & self-governing. We need to stop being whiners: "if only if wasn't for THOSE people then we could have nice things" cause that's just lazy.

US citizens must realize: either we step up and own the EV market with our companies & our technology or the Chinese will.

It's just that easy.

If we don't have the balls to self-govern and win, then we lose.

I didn't get into externalities, but clearly it is one area where the free market will over consume an asset since it is underpriced due to common use - the environment is a good example.

FWIW, there is no doubt regulations have helped improve air quality and such in the US.

[maczrool]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

using the up-front cost difference isn't accurate, though, as most 45e purchasers (not lessees) will qualify and receive the full $7500 tax credit, making it cost less than the 40i

I personally would rather have my taxes lower than propping up these EVs that can’t stand on their own merits.

[Killramos]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

I'm confused, sincerely. AFAIK, the hybrid tax credit is a government subsidy. fellow taxpayers aren't "paying me". am I understanding this incorrectly?

I would say yes there is a gap in your understanding there, unless you are being intentionally obtuse.

Where do you think the government gets the money that they gave you? Taxpayers.

Your “subsidy” is a simple wealth transfer from taxpayers to you, to buy a BMW of all things. A pretty farcical situation by any definition.

[Frenetic]

Also, assuming the correlation goes both ways, low oil and gas prices tend to make EV's less desirable. So, it would be in the interest of oil companies to keep prices low. It's a double-edge sword: greed and short-term profits for the cartel or longevity. They are their own worse enemy.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

I'm confused, sincerely[…]

Originally Posted by Killramos

I would say yes there is a gap in your understanding there, unless you are being intentionally obtuse.

i had already genuinely prefaced my inquiry yet you still call me names?! ok. anyway, thanks for the tax lesson. (now that last was sarcasm. could you tell the difference this time? hope so, friend)

[Killramos]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

i had already prefaced my reply yet you were still skeptical. ok. anyway, thanks for the tax lesson. (now that was sarcasm. could you tell the difference this time? hope so, friend)

Going with intentionally obtuse then, gotcha.

That’s cool, good news is it wasn’t my tax dollars you received, so I don’t really get to have an opinion on the topic.