[sigmabody]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Do you have MSport brakes? Those can be more grabby than the regulars. The 45e has bigger brakes than the standard 40i so that may be the OPs case also.

That is an excellent point: I have the "standard" brakes on my 45e, not the MSport option, so that may be the difference. I've not had any issues with smooth stopping, and the brake feel is pretty much just right for me (subjective as that is).

(I didn't opt for the MSport brakes because I was worried they might change the feel based on other reports, they are purported to have more wear and brake dust than the standard ones, I don't plan to track my 45e, and I test drove with the standard brakes. I checked almost all the other options, though.)

[10101X5]

I thought it was a bit weird when I typed () because I know it was either 3.0 or 4.4. By the way why did they name it 40? No I have regular brakes.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by 10101X5

I thought it was a bit weird when I typed () because I know it was either 3.0 or 4.4. By the way why did they name it 40?

At one point is signified the engine displacement. According to this it is now a virtual displacement but not sure that is still accurate. I think it may have become more of a marketing item.

https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-li...ng-system.html

[LarsOtium]

I have the standard 45e brakes. I don’t feel the brake by wire is bad at all under driving conditions when vehicle has speed/momentum.

I am only complaining about the grabby nature with vehicle inching into or out of a parking space, garage, etc. Then, application tends to either full on or full off, which causes some lurching… at least in my experience so far.

Granted I have all of a month so far with 45e.

Driving road manners are fine once you get used to them.

[10101X5]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

At one point is signified the engine displacement. According to this it is now a virtual displacement but not sure that is still accurate. I think it may have become more of a marketing item.

https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-li...ng-system.html

"Nice" marketing. They and MB sure had me tricked with their naming. Other brand, 350 means 3.5L, 460 means 4.6L, 570 means 5.7L. BMW's 40 means... 3.0L, 50 means... 4.4L. MB's 350 means... 2.0L, 450 means... 3.0L, 580 means... 4.0L. Nice.

[Scopes1936]

Originally Posted by Spencergnyc

Hi everyone. Over the course of my ownership with this car, about 7 months, I’ve had a few instances where the little red car would pop up on my dash alerting me of a possible collision, but nothing would ever happen. Today though, I was on the highway doing about 80 in the leftmost lane with no shoulder, and the emergency braking randomly kicked in. The car in-front of me was maybe 15 car lengths away and it was night time. My car took me from 80MPH to about 20MPH in a matter of seconds at 11pm in the fast lane. I couldn’t do anything. I nearly got rear ended by a truck while desperately trying to accelerate, but of course the car thinks it knows better than me and limited my acceleration as it thought I was about to crash. I’m now deathly afraid to drive my $74,000 car, which is my only car.

This happened to me twice in two days with my 2023 X7. I was driving the car myself, no driver assistance and no cars or obstacles in front of me. I was on the highway going 70 MPH the car slammed on the brakes and for a few seconds it started to slow itself down. A message appeared that said “emergency stop. Vehicle is stopping… “image of a gas pedal and foot” then cont. driving. Completely different than the front end collision warning.

Has anyone figured out what triggers this?

[paul21]

Originally Posted by Scopes1936

This happened to me twice in two days with my 2023 X7. I was driving the car myself, no driver assistance and no cars or obstacles in front of me. I was on the highway going 70 MPH the car slammed on the brakes and for a few seconds it started to slow itself down. A message appeared that said “emergency stop. Vehicle is stopping… “image of a gas pedal and foot” then cont. driving. Completely different than the front end collision warning.

Has anyone figured out what triggers this?

Emergency stop is triggered by pulling on the parking break switch in the center console. It can be overridden by any driver inputs.

[sebk4]

Originally Posted by paul21

Emergency stop is triggered by pulling on the parking break switch in the center console. It can be overridden by any driver inputs.

I agree. I mistakenly pulled the packing switch while driving at around 45MPH and the vehicle almost came to a complete stop. Pushing the switch back down and accelerating worked for me. Fortunately there was no vehicle behind me at the time. I suggest keeping the center console area uncluttered to avoid something like this. That’s how I’ve prevented this from happing again.

[hiki08]

Originally Posted by paul21

Emergency stop is triggered by pulling on the parking break switch in the center console. It can be overridden by any driver inputs.

Interesting/good to know. Can use in an emergency when a driver is unconscious or unable to drive the vehicle safely?

On a side note, I've gotten various warnings over the years, one or two of them making the car brake or helped depress the brake more quickly after I reacted (usually at traffic light/low speeds), but all of them were on point. I do occasionally get the red car warning when I need to swerve around a safety island, with a car parked a short distance after that island, but at no time did I feel I was at risk of crashing into the parked car. As a result, I'm usually on edge and check my rear view mirror whenever I approach and swerve around safety islands. I set my detection to 'early'.

In comparison, I recently rented a Tesla Model 3 while travelling and its detection system threw up wrong warnings very frequently over the course of the week of driving. At one point on the centre screen (in the visualisation of what the car was sensing) it showed it detected a lorry truck crossing in front of my car from the left and emergency braked the vehicle to a stop, when in fact I was just on a narrow road with parked cars on the side, and following another vehicle moving in front... luckily it was stop start traffic (under 30km/hr) at the time and car behind did not crash into me...

[b.frank70]

Originally Posted by Spencergnyc

Hi everyone. Over the course of my ownership with this car, about 7 months, I’ve had a few instances where the little red car would pop up on my dash alerting me of a possible collision, but nothing would ever happen. Today though, I was on the highway doing about 80 in the leftmost lane with no shoulder, and the emergency braking randomly kicked in. The car in-front of me was maybe 15 car lengths away and it was night time. My car took me from 80MPH to about 20MPH in a matter of seconds at 11pm in the fast lane. I couldn’t do anything. I nearly got rear ended by a truck while desperately trying to accelerate, but of course the car thinks it knows better than me and limited my acceleration as it thought I was about to crash. I’m now deathly afraid to drive my $74,000 car, which is my only car.

This happened to me! Does anyone know what the problem is? Fix?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by b.frank70

This happened to me! Does anyone know what the problem is? Fix?

see above from Paul21...you likely accidently flipped the parking brake in the center console. Not many places to go fast in Guam so assume that no one crashed into you.

[TheACN]

I haven't read the full thread, but I can confirm this fantom braking happens with many other manufacturers' cars. I had a Tiguan that braked so hard I actually hurt my wrist (I'm not laying my hand on the steering wheel the same way since then). I had a Durango which has done it but it was rare. Tesla forum is full of complaints on this.

By the way I kept the dashcam recording for the one when i hurt my wrist, and sent to VW to show them it isn't safe, and they didn't care. The whole ownership experience was a nightmare anyway but that's a subject for another day.

[mitch57]

This has happened to me on several occasions. No apparent rime or reason. I believe the cameras detect a rogue shadow or something that causes the random and very abrupt and hard braking. Very annoying and alarming indeed.

[paul21]

FYI if it is active collision avoidance (sensor driven failure) the braking can be interrupted by stepping on the accelerator with sufficient force (maybe the click point?) or actively steering according to the manual.

[jad03060]

Until the systems get much smarter, as stated in the manual, it is the operator's responsibility to be ready to take over at any time. This means both steering, brakes, and accelerator pedal...all of the things that are required to control the vehicle. The logic continues to get better, but by no means is it perfect.

FWIW, the Tesla engineer that was responsible for their logic said in court recently that the video demo they showed of one of their vehicles driving was preprogrammed with the route with the required stops and turns, and that in one of the practice runs, it ran into a fence...so much for their self-driving. Since then, they've removed some of the sensors to save some money.

It behooves everyone to stay alert when driving their vehicle. So far, the assists are still not autonomous.

The activation of the parking brake while moving is supposed to stop the vehicle, and with the right hardware and software and conditions, pull to the side of the road if it can safely, then call BMW on the assist line.

[b.frank70]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

see above from Paul21...you likely accidently flipped the parking brake in the center console. Not many places to go fast in Guam so assume that no one crashed into you.

Unfortunately I didn’t accidentally flip the parking brake. I had both hands on the wheel.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by b.frank70

Unfortunately I didn’t accidentally flip the parking brake. I had both hands on the wheel.

Do you have the Drivers' Assistant package? And were all the driver's assists on? Meaning the little circle here green?

Sorry to hear thats scary stuff. What area/road were you on? Was there anything unusual like construction in the area? Guam roads are really good so it is hard to imagine that the system fooled by road issues.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Do you have the Drivers' Assistant package? And were all the driver's assists on? Meaning the little circle here green?

.

Just for clarity, that button controls the standard safety features and not the features available with the Driving Assistance Professional Package.

[sigmabody]

Originally Posted by TheACN

I haven't read the full thread, but I can confirm this fantom braking happens with many other manufacturers' cars. I had a Tiguan that braked so hard I actually hurt my wrist (I'm not laying my hand on the steering wheel the same way since then). I had a Durango which has done it but it was rare. Tesla forum is full of complaints on this.

This will very likely continue to be the case until there are enough major class-action lawsuits filed and won against the manufacturers. They simply don't have much incentive to make the systems good, and eliminate the false positives, until or unless they lose a lot of money over it (which is why they all just ignore these well known and very dangerous issues). Until then it'll just get worse, unfortunately.

[paul21]

Originally Posted by sigmabody

This will very likely continue to be the case until there are enough major class-action lawsuits filed and won against the manufacturers. They simply don't have much incentive to make the systems good, and eliminate the false positives, until or unless they lose a lot of money over it (which is why they all just ignore these well known and very dangerous issues). Until then it'll just get worse, unfortunately.

I don't think lawsuits will prevent it. The issue is the long tail problem with edge cases that rarely occur in a very large state/input space. There are too many conditions to check and verify in simulation or via static analysis. The error/mistake rate will drop over time, but most regulators will take a risk ratio approach to accepting automated systems like that. If the global risk of severe accidents is lower with the system, then it will be allowed, and the manufacturers shielded from liability for the remaining edge cases. In the end the transportation system is safer, but some accidents will happen because of the automation.


This is also why Tesla's FSD has been much slower to develop than expected. They need a mistake rate below X per mile to show regulators that it is safe enough to be approved, but they have not been able to reach that level because of the edge cases that crop up.


It's also hard because it's like trying to plug a leaky boat that has 3 holes with just 2 hands. As soon as one issue is fixed, it creates another rare issue in another situation. Fixing everything requires complex adaptations of decision making under uncertainty.

[sigmabody]

Originally Posted by paul21

I don't think lawsuits will prevent it. The issue is the long tail problem with edge cases that rarely occur in a very large state/input space. There are too many conditions to check and verify in simulation or via static analysis. The error/mistake rate will drop over time, but most regulators will take a risk ratio approach to accepting automated systems like that. If the global risk of severe accidents is lower with the system, then it will be allowed, and the manufacturers shielded from liability for the remaining edge cases. In the end the transportation system is safer, but some accidents will happen because of the automation.

I don't think that's an inevitable problem, fwiw. Most "fuzzy" software systems (machine learning, heuristics, etc.) have an effective "certainty" factor in the output of their reasoning model (glossing over some details, but that's the idea), and vendors can tune this down to effectively eliminate false positives, even in the input cases which are not explicitly accounted for. In essence, you can write it like "if I'm not sure, don't so anything".

They don't, because they are making the trade-off to intervene, because they think that most drivers are bad/distracted, they want the systems to be more active, and they think that screwing it up in the corner cases is better than possibly not intervening in some cases. This may be correct/desirable for some drivers, but it doesn't remove the liability when their systems do bad things and cause accidents, and they will (and absolutely should) be sued for them. Then in an ideal world, they will adjust the algorithms to not act in the unsure cases, and the bad drivers will have a few more collisions, but the systems won't be as bad in the corner cases.

That's my thought and hope, anyway.

[ST3]

Hope this is not taken in the wrong way/out of context, however, I’ve had many vehicle - mostly BMW but also some other MFG that have adaptive systems as well as emergency braking systems.

In my experience if you are using these systems as a driver assistance benefit vs autonomous AND you are an attentive driver…when something like automatic braking happens your foot is in the general vicinity of the gas peddle and you simple press down on the “gas” to override the system. I’ve never had a false alarm (and I’ve had plenty of them) where simply applying pressure to the gas peddle didn’t override the computer and allow me to avoid what was described here as well as many recent situations highlighted in the news.

I welcome other thoughts on this…