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      09-20-2020, 09:19 PM   #1
RaleighStEclaire
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5 long-winded questions re: future 45e purchase

Hello – new to the forum.

I’m coming from a 2014 Lexus GS350 Fsport. My family is a wife, a 2yo, and a dog. We are traveling more recently but live close to work (~4 min drive) and my in-laws (~15 min drive). My own parents are about an hour and a half away. At my wife’s request, I’m looking for a midsized SUV. We’re also looking to move away from fossil fuels while maintaining at least one car for road trips that doesn't require mid-trip charging (ie PHEV). The XC90 is safe and a good option on paper but I’m not seriously considering it – I love to drive.

I’m hoping to get some advice on the 45e. I would appreciate responses to each if folks are so inclined. I am prepared to go fully loaded but I’d also not like to waste money or select an option that’s worse than not having it (eg ventilated seats??) I do suspect I’ll be custom ordering as there’s 1-2 base 45e’s per dealership around me and they all seem to be in white.

1) SEATS: My GS cools down really fast overall and the ventilated seats function very well. The automatic setting is fabulous – set it and forget it. Heats my bum or ventilates it based on the temp I selected relative to ambient. I love them. I don’t have massage seats but they seem like something my wife would like on long drives. Only once have I felt the GS seats lacked cushion – on a 5 hour drive to and from Chicago. Posts on the X5 seem to be mixed – some folks think the ventilated seats are less comfortable due to reduced cushioning and the ventilation is practically absent, others feel it’s worth the price. So, will I regret selecting this option and be miserably uncomfortable? Be underwhelmed with ventilation but otherwise fine? Is this much ado about nothing? (I’m relatively thin if that matters)

2) WHEELS: I love the 21 inch wheels but they come with performance tires. The 20’s come with all season. I live in Ohio. Is the ride quality considerably different? Should I definitely stay away from performance since we get a fair bit of snow?

3) BRAKES: I considered the Msport brakes for stopping power, reasoning that the PHEV has a bit more heft to bring to a stop. But I’ve read that the standard brakes are more than sufficient. I do think the Msport look better but I focus on function over form – are they necessary with the added weight of the PHEV or would I just be getting them for aesthetics and non-real world brake tests?

4) PARKING SENSORS: Can I really spec out an $81,000 car and still have to get the $800 parking assist package to get parking radar? My kid’s Little Tikes Cozy Coupe has this function standard (sarcasm). Is this just one of those Bimmer-isms where they give you a jet engine standard but ask you to fork out extra for the mirrors?

5) TINT: Opinions on tinting driver/passenger windows to match the back? I think Ohio permits 50.

JUST FOR FUN: thinking Arctic Grey Metallic with Coffee Vernasca and shadowline – thoughts? Too bad no Tanzanite on this trim.

Thanks in advance. Sorry so long winded - trying to add context.
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      09-20-2020, 09:54 PM   #2
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I'll respond to #2 and #3.

#2 Wheels:
If you want to go ahead and choose to get the 21" wheels, you always have the option to putting on some different tires that are more suited to ohio weather. I personally went with the 20" wheels because I wanted a slighter softer ride (more side wall), I liked the look, and the all season rubber fit my needs. I personally like the 20" wheels, but the 21" ones are still quite nice looking I agree.

Buying the 21" wheels after the purchase will likely be more expensive. So you may want to consider that too if you want to just go ahead and jump to the 21" now and not eat the big cost of getting the wheels later.

#3 Brakes:
Unless you are tracking the car, you don't need the M brakes. They look nice, but the standard brakes are plenty adequate to stop the car. They wouldn't put brakes on the car if it couldn't lock the wheel up after a few hard braking sessions. The M calipers look nice for sure, but it is going to be more aesthetics oriented unless you are tracking it or like driving it hard. I had brembos on my last car and definitely appreciate the aesthetics of it and was the reason I went with the brembos. So it is up to you if getting those brakes are worth an aesthetics cost.
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      09-20-2020, 11:27 PM   #3
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#2 if you get the summer tires you will need to swap tires and/or wheels in the winter. You can do the math on cost/benefit.

#3 doesn't matter for general driving; could make a difference in an emergency. A few anecdotes can be found on the forum.

#5 if you don't like seeing the road, cars around you or your side mirrors, never gesture to people, and generally want to have a worse driving experience while looking "cool" - sure.
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      09-21-2020, 01:23 AM   #4
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#1 BMW ventilated seats don’t work the same as other brands. They are not cooling, just sucking air but it works fine from what friends tell

#2 Chose the 20” for softer ride and to limit lateral impacts. I’m living in the country side with lots of chaotic roads

#3 chose the M package for the design combined with M wheels

#4 I took the Parking Assist plus especially for easy backing up. The X5 is big...
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      09-21-2020, 02:15 AM   #5
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1. I have the ventilated seats and massage, not worth the money. The ventilation will avoid sweating on a hot day but they will not cool you down like in a Lexus where AC air is blown into the seat.

2. I have 22 inch wheels (the black ones), this was a big gamble as here in Belgium B-roads are mostly of very bad quality. The 45e comes with air suspension so they do remain comfortable against my expections.
For the winter time a have a set of 20 inch with real winter tyres. Don't like the all season tyres as they are the worst of both worlds.

3. I have the M-pack because the wife wanted the wheel arches painted, this comes with the bigger brakes but I don't think you really need them if you don't do track days.

4. In EU I believe front and rear sensors are standard, the extra package adds 360 camera, parking assist and side sensors. Happy I have them because it is a big car.
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      09-21-2020, 02:43 AM   #6
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I love the ventilated seats! If I'm hot I use the AC. When I don't want to stick to leather seats or after sporting when I'm still sweaty the ventilated seats are great. They do their job perfectly. I wouldn't want cold air blown up my ass
It's an option I will definitely take in future cars.
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      09-21-2020, 02:58 AM   #7
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Here's my take on some of your questions:
1) As already stated, the ventilated seats don't blow cool air. I have them, and I find they work well to cool you down and stop you from getting sweaty, but they need some time to do their work (like min. 10 minutes). You can hardly feel them working, even on the highest setting, but after a while you notice your back and legs getting cooler.
On the highest setting, the ventilator noise for the cooled seats is very noticeable, whilst it is not a dealbreaker it does somewhat bother me sometimes.
I love the massage seats, they work very well. I am about 250lbs. and I don't find them uncomfortable at all, but I cannot compare to non-massage seats.
2) In Europe, almost no one drives with all season tires. You get summer tires for the summer, and winter tires for the winter. Personally, I think all-seasons are a compromise that never delivers the best performance you can get. When do you need your tires best performance? In extreme situations or an emergency stop. Then I want the best performance I can get.
I have the 21" and as the 45e comes with air suspension, I have never driven a more comfortable car. And yes, our Belgian roads are really bad sometimes.
3) Only for aesthetics, unless you plan on tracking the car or driving like Steve McQueen, but I guess you wouldn't be getting an SUV then

I cannot answer 4) and 5) but I will say the parking package is very convenient if, like me, you have to park in a garage with a very narrow entry. I have to retract my mirrors to even get in, and the auto back-up gets the car out flawlessly every time.

One more tip: If you can get the skylounge, your 2-year old will love it. My kid is lyrical about it every time he gets in.
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      09-21-2020, 05:21 AM   #8
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I also had a GS350 and loved it. I traded it in for a 540i and was converted over to BMW because of the engine and how much better the 5 series handled. When I needed an SUV, I went with the X5 (same engine as my 540i). I am just as happy with the X5. I would get the 20"wheels. The tires will last longer. The tires on the 21" wheels only last 10-13k miles and although the staggered setup looks cool, they are expensive to replace and cannot be rotated. The 20" are quieter and more comfortable also. Go with the standard brakes. The produce less dust and stop a tad bit smoother than the M sport brakes. The feel is better with the M sports but for day to day city driving I like the standard brakes better. You will want the parking package for the cameras so that you can record around the vehicle. I do not find the top down camera view all that useful as the image is too small for my tastes but i got the package bec I wanted drive recorder. The Driving Assistance Pro package is a must as are the multi-contour seats. The ventilation function operates differently (sucks air rather than pushes air out) than Lexus and is not as good as the GS350 I owned but if you compare the standard seat to the multi-contour in the X5,I think the mc wins by a large margin for its superior comfort.

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      09-21-2020, 09:43 AM   #9
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Going to start by posting my actual build. My other ordered vehicle came in first, and it was my first choice so I took that. https://www.bmwofaustin.com/inventor...ta6c03m9e04017


So, the only package I didn't order was Drivers Assistance Pro, because I hate all the driving nannies, so I didn't spec. 21" wheels look nicer and comfort is fine. I did spec M Sport brakes because they are much better than the standard in brake feel and capability, they are also a cheap option. Go for Merino leather, it is better quality (I have vernasca in my G01, it is holding up well after 2 years but not as soft). Go for ventilated seats if you live somewhere warm, they do help, but they do not blow out cold air as most other makes. Arctic grey is beautiful, and was my choice as you can see. In the end, get what makes you happy.
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      09-21-2020, 01:01 PM   #10
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My 2 cents:

1.) Seats: BMW has a different design than the Japanese: "ventilated" means the seats act as a vacuum pulling air *away* from you versus pushing air towards you as with cooled seats; so you need to have your expectations set right there. The cooling in a BMW comes from evaporation versus actual cold air.

2.) Wheels: The 21s are staggered as well as larger and the tires won't work for winter so you'd have to buy a staggered winter tire setup or a square wheel/tire setup. The 21s look better, but ride worse. After considering all options and looking at tire prices (I prefer Nokian), the 20s in the square setup were by far the cheapest for tire replacement and had more available tires than even the 19s so I went with 20s.

3.) Brakes: Both brakes will lock up the wheels even in emergencies so there's no difference there; where there is a difference is during long and heavy brake use where the pads and rotors heat up and can cause brake fade, there the M brakes will be better. So unless you plan to track your X5 or have a daily drive down a 10,000 ft mountain and love to ride the brakes the whole way vs using descent control, there's no difference.

Unpopular bonus opinion: I prefer the old school X-line look over the painted fender cut-outs look - I've had M3s/4s for a decade but prior to that I had an OG Audi Allroad so I'm looking forward to getting back to that old school SUV look!
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      09-21-2020, 01:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Both brakes will lock up the wheels even in emergencies so there's no difference there
I don't understand this - what does locking the brakes up have to do with stopping ability/distance? I could put a pin through your rotors and it'll lock them up but would certainly not stop the car.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - you stop because you convert kinetic energy to heat, and the faster/better you do that the quicker you'll stop. The larger M brakes will do that better.
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      09-21-2020, 01:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Both brakes will lock up the wheels even in emergencies so there's no difference there
I don't understand this - what does locking the brakes up have to do with stopping ability/distance? I could put a pin through your rotors and it'll lock them up but would certainly not stop the car.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - you stop because you convert kinetic energy to heat, and the faster/better you do that the quicker you'll stop. The larger M brakes will do that better.
Isn't the heat a side effect? It is not the heat stopping the car.

Edit, did some reading, should have done that before posting. I am not a engineer.
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      09-21-2020, 01:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Isn't the heat a side effect? It is not the heat stopping the car.

Edit, did some reading, should have done that before posting. I am not a engineer.
The basic physics of momentum/energy conservation during braking: https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/484892
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      09-21-2020, 02:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong - you stop because you convert kinetic energy to heat, and the faster/better you do that the quicker you'll stop. The larger M brakes will do that better.
The ABS takes over at brake lock - even BMW engineers state the ///M brakes and standard brakes stop the vehicles at the same distance (there's a thread on it but too lazy to find it). To your point, brake fade happens for the exact reason you state, and thus ///M brakes with more material to heat up last longer before fade and ceramic brakes last even longer, and they recover faster ... but for normal emergency scenarios going less than 100 MPH my understanding is the numbers are too small between the two to be meaningful and recovery is meaningless. It's when the brakes get heated over a duration where the differences show up, thus big brakes and/or ceramic for track use.

It's like if two dudes of same height and weight drink 5 shots: both get drunk, but the one with the faster metabolism sobers up first, i.e. recovers faster. If they don't plan on drinking all night then there's no difference.
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      09-21-2020, 02:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
The ABS takes over at brake lock - even BMW engineers state the ///M brakes and standard brakes stop the vehicles at the same distance (there's a thread on it but too lazy to find it). To your point, brake fade happens for the exact reason you state, and thus ///M brakes with more material to heat up last longer before fade and ceramic brakes last even longer ... but for normal emergency scenarios going less than 100 MPH my understanding is the numbers are too small between the two to be meaningful. It's when the brakes get heated over a duration where the differences show up, thus big brakes and/or ceramic for track use.
Ok, just want to make clear that ability to lock up the brakes doesn't tell you how quickly the car will stop. Maybe it's true that the difference between regular and M brakes is small, but it doesn't follow from lock up as far as I can tell (again, if you disagree please correct).

Take an imaginary brake system - that locks and unlocks the rotors by literally putting a pin through them. Add ABS on top of that and compare vs regular brakes. Will this brake system perform equivalent to regular brakes? Of course not, because it'll be terrible at converting energy to heat at the rotors and you'll spend most of the time just sliding on the tire.
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      09-21-2020, 02:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
Ok, just want to make clear that ability to lock up the brakes doesn't tell you how quickly the car will stop
Well, if a car's brakes can't lock up the rotor/wheel then you've got a problem! And if it takes awhile to lock them up, also a problem.

So question 1 is are the brakes powerful enough to lock up the rotors more/less instantly given the weight and speed of the vehicle? This is where brake fade / overheating comes in.

After brake-lock the next question is grip, i.e., tires and road surface
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      09-21-2020, 02:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Well, if a car's brakes can't lock up the rotor then you've got a problem! And if it takes awhile to lock them up, also a problem.

So question 1 is are the brakes powerful enough to lock up the rotors more/less instantly given the weight and speed of the vehicle? This is where brake fade / overheating comes in.

After brake-lock the next question is grip, i.e., tires and road surface
Technically probably not true (e.g. some future ABS could intelligently modulate the brakes right at the limit to make sure that rotors never lock up and tires never slip), but ok probably true for current brakes.

So that sets up a maximum braking distance you can have given the brakes can lock the rotors, but it doesn't tell you the minimum braking distance for the given brakes.
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      09-21-2020, 02:52 PM   #18
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So that sets up a maximum braking distance you can have given the brakes can lock the rotors, but it doesn't tell you the minimum braking distance for the given brakes.
The minimum is:

1 - brakes lock the rotor instantly (i.e., nearly locks), ABS takes over
2 - tires/grip

The longer it takes to lock the rotor the longer the braking distance; the less grip, the longer the braking distance.

One might argue that the wider 21" tires improves braking distance too ...
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      09-21-2020, 02:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
The minimum is:

1 - brakes lock the rotor instantly (i.e., nearly locks), ABS takes over
2 - tires/grip

The longer it takes to lock the rotor the longer the braking distance; the less grip, the longer the braking distance.
I already gave an example that illustrates that 1 is incorrect.
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      09-21-2020, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
I already gave an example that illustrates that 1 is incorrect.
You didn't actually but I think we've rung this one out.
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      09-21-2020, 02:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
You didn't actually but I think we've rung this one out.
It's only a few posts above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
Take an imaginary brake system - that locks and unlocks the rotors by literally putting a pin through them. Add ABS on top of that and compare vs regular brakes. Will this brake system perform equivalent to regular brakes? Of course not, because it'll be terrible at converting energy to heat at the rotors and you'll spend most of the time just sliding on the tire.
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      09-21-2020, 03:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneya View Post
It's only a few posts above.
I know - "brake lock" is a convenient shorthand way of saying the brakes are powerful enough to easily and successfully stop the vehicle. That is, if the brakes are too weak (due to design, materials, mechanicals, etc) to lock up the wheels then they may not be able to effectively stop the car.

That's why the question is, are the brakes powerful enough to lock the rotor - it's not actually being locked that's important, it's being powerful enough to nearly instantly be able to lock them up. Once that's possible the stopping distance question moves to grip.
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