[jad03060]

FWIW, an ICE isn't as efficient in cold weather as are all versions, but the differences are day and night with the current battery tech, especially if the heating is entirely resistance versus a heat pump.

Drag is higher in the cold, and an ICE takes longer to warm up, hurting its efficiency on most all shorter trips.

[gadgetfreak2024]

Originally Posted by Madsen203

The comments about range anxiety and charging wait times are overblown in this thread. If you road trip regularly, say every few week or each month, it’s not ideal. However, once per quarter? Charging is a non-issue. Take a 10 minute walk and your heart will thank you and you’ll be refreshed for the next leg of the journey.

I drove to Utah from SF and it was a 12 hour drive for 750 miles including charging stops. Auto pilot drove the whole thing for me. Longest charge was in Baker at 36 minutes. Most of the other charges were 15-18 minutes. Only once did I have to wait-a shocking 4 minutes.

Maintenance in 26k miles has been washer fluid and tires. The latter of which I changed for something sportier and not because it was truly needed. The seats are comfortable. Car is equally as quiet as Lexus ES350.

Range is about 2 miles per percentage so a reliable 160 miles between charges when using the 15-80% charging strategy.

The only pitfall of MX is accessing off the beaten path areas such as Mono Lake and traveling the cuts of the desert areas. If those are the areas you like to go often, probably better to have PHEV.

Lastly, if you’re one to short trip your car or drive around with dogs, the dog mode and preconditioning is excellent. No warm up and no engine to worry about driving “cold”. I can literally fully throttle out of the drive way with nearly zero consequence. Try that in an ICE.

For me, I am still interested in either X50e or X7. I want the quietest, most comfortable SUV I can get outside of the GM Yukon or Escalade. The MX at 72,500+TTL [...]

I agree with you about range anxiety being overblown — but only if you have a Tesla (which I am not interested in now). For everything else, you are at the whim of our TODAY’s comically bad patchwork infrastructure. This will change with a lot of the initiatives that have been announced about the infrastructure over the last couple of months. But that’s at least a couple years until it would make a discernible difference.

In some ways it feels to me a bit like choosing between an iPhone (the Tesla of mobile phones) and Android (eg every other OEM’s EVs). With Apple and Tesla the whole ecosystem is tied together and pretty reliable, but there is very little customization or differentiation. They are very nice, reliable appliances for what they serve, run smoothly and last a long time. Android, and to continue my analogy, all the other car OEMs, offer a great deal more choice, customization, etc, but the loss of the tightly integrated ecosystem means sometimes things may be less predictable (charging your car away from home on the vehicle or trying to upgrade to the latest OS update for Android on the smartphone side). Clearly there are large markets for all of these and you make the compromises you are comfortable with. No judgment either way. Something for everyone.

Back to the infrastructure point, if my 2011 X5 finally dies, I would very likely replace it with a non-Tesla EV — but only because I have the 50e for when I need to go a long way. I’m still not there on being a pure EV household even though it would work fine for us 95% of the time. That other 5% could be tough though and we just wouldn’t want to take that chance, or deal with winter range loss, etc.

I will get there eventually thiugh.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Giggler

In California, the supercharger rate is .58kWh during peak hours. After doing some math, the ModelXLR basically has the same economy as my LCI 40i if you’re road tripping or commuting and subject to these charging rates. Home charging rates are barely better (.37-.46kWh off peak, .45-.54kWh peak) or you could spend several thousand dollars on a solar system to cover you. It all seems like added hassle for little in return. I just don’t see the point as a Californian…. I’m at the gas station for 5 minutes every 500 to 600 miles. Nothing could be more convenient.

Take into account of charging too. Super charging lost is quoted at Tesla forum to be 25-33%. L2 lost is on the order of 15%. L1 is 20%.

In CA, cost per mile of EV is not lower than ICE at all. For 45e, we get 1.9-2ish mile/kWh , the cost per mile is 40% higher than 40i. For X, I think it can comfortably reach 3mi/kwh, so it is just about break even.
So for saving operation cost, CA doesn't work out. For solar panel, it isn't free. I think the correct apple-apple comparison is you prepay 6-8 years of electricity bill, after 6-8 years, you break even and start getting free electricity. This is with CA NEM2.0 which by now no long can be applied. Under NEM3.0, the break even point without battery is 20 years. If you add battery, even you spend more, you bring down break even point to 10-12 years. NEM3 really kill the solar industry in CA

[bono]

I am tesla investor for years now and I strongly believe in great future of this company. However, I don't see myself buying tesla car myself. Quality of those cars is well below BMW.

I wouldn't consider X even for $50k. There are many reasons for this, including X won't tow my travel trailer and 50e will.

Regarding cost of electricity in CA, I have 13kV solar system on my roof. Money saved on local commuting and not paying for fuel cover payments of the loan on solar panels. And apart from that we are on all kitchen electrical appliances, A/C mini split, etc. My electric bill generally covers fixed costs related to being connected to grid. I prefer to pay off solar panels, than leaving money at gas station. If I sell the house, panels at least should increase the value of the property.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by bono

I am tesla investor for years now and I strongly believe in great future of this company. However, I don't see myself buying tesla car myself. Quality of those cars is well below BMW.

I wouldn't consider X even for $50k. There are many reasons for this, including X won't tow my travel trailer and 50e will.

Regarding cost of electricity in CA, I have 13kV solar system on my roof. Money saved on local commuting and not paying for fuel cover payments of the loan on solar panels. And apart from that we are on all kitchen electrical appliances, A/C mini split, etc. My electric bill generally covers fixed costs related to being connected to grid. I prefer to pay off solar panels, than leaving money at gas station. If I sell the house, panels at least should increase the value of the property.

13kW solar system in CA is like ~$40k, right? CA typical cost is like $3-3.5/W, very expansive. Cost of material is about $1.1-1.2/W, rest are labors. I just did it myself squeezing into NEM2.0, 20x 400 W panels, on solar edge 7.6kW AC inverter. That should cover my normal usage + charging car.

[bono]

$25k from tesla ( ) 2.5 years ago. Minus federal tax credit.

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

13kW solar system in CA is like ~$40k, right? CA typical cost is like $3-3.5/W, very expansive. Cost of material is about $1.1-1.2/W, rest are labors. I just did it myself squeezing into NEM2.0, 20x 400 W panels, on solar edge 7.6kW AC inverter. That should cover my normal usage + charging car.

[Scientifix]

Originally Posted by cobramite

There is a couple here in our high rise who will tell you multiple horror stories about road trips in their Tesla that they lasted less than a year with. Probably a cool vehicle for local driving but long distance treks, forget about it and there are many who will agree with that statement.
EVs are great for some of us but they are clearly and most definetly not the ultimate vehicle for everyone.

Not sure what the “horror story” is about? Of course I didn’t mention the obvious - you need to be able to charge at home. If you are in a high rise and you can’t charge at home then it poses obvious challenges. I have had a Tesla from 2018 for 5 years and as I mentioned multiple long distance road trips including 1000+ miles trip. There was nothing even close to a “horror story” other than as I mentioned charging times
Of course you need to be evaluate yourself. If you can’t charge at home for example then it’s a non starter. Or if you are in an area that’s not covered by Tesla superchargers then it’s definitely a problem

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Take into account of charging too. Super charging lost is quoted at Tesla forum to be 25-33%. L2 lost is on the order of 15%. L1 is 20%.

In CA, cost per mile of EV is not lower than ICE at all. For 45e, we get 1.9-2ish mile/kWh , the cost per mile is 40% higher than 40i. For X, I think it can comfortably reach 3mi/kwh, so it is just about break even.
So for saving operation cost, CA doesn't work out. For solar panel, it isn't free. I think the correct apple-apple comparison is you prepay 6-8 years of electricity bill, after 6-8 years, you break even and start getting free electricity. This is with CA NEM2.0 which by now no long can be applied. Under NEM3.0, the break even point without battery is 20 years. If you add battery, even you spend more, you bring down break even point to 10-12 years. NEM3 really kill the solar industry in CA

At 2 miles per kWh, you’re looking at like eight 400w panels to cover your usage. That’s crazy! I have a NEM 2.0 system covering basic household usage. I would have to add minimum five additional 400w panels to cover a Tesla at 12k yearly miles. But your average commuter going 40 miles each way would need 10 panels to cover their usage! I don’t even have room on my roof for that much solar expansion. It really is absurd when you start researching it and crunching the numbers for how inadequate residential solar is at supporting an EV. So then I think most people are going to be forced to rely on the grid, which is expensive and projected to increase price per kWh by 5-10% yoy for the years to come. EV’s in California are like a bait and switch…. I mean, Tesla advertises .16kWh on their website (as a national average) which is straight up false advertising to California buyers.

I think I just derailed this topic, but I find the topic of EV’s to be a fascinating one.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Giggler

At 2 miles per kWh, you’re looking at like eight 400w panels to cover your usage. That’s crazy! I have a NEM 2.0 system covering basic household usage. I would have to add minimum five additional 400w panels to cover a Tesla at 12k yearly miles. But your average commuter going 40 miles each way would need 10 panels to cover their usage! I don’t even have room on my roof for that much solar expansion. It really is absurd when you start researching it and crunching the numbers for how inadequate residential solar is at supporting an EV. So then I think most people are going to be forced to rely on the grid, which is expensive and projected to increase price per kWh by 5-10% yoy for the years to come. EV’s in California are like a bait and switch…. I mean, Tesla advertises .16kWh on their website (as a national average) which is straight up false advertising to California buyers.

I think I just derailed this topic, but I find the topic of EV’s to be a fascinating one.

Since I DIYed, I read through the permit very carefully. You are allowed to add up to 1kW to your existing system and still remain in NEM2. Any thing larger, they will bump you up to NEM3. Be very careful how you handle addition.

In my case, if before EV, I only need a 4.4kW (11 panel 400W QCell) system. I did 8kW because 1st I DIY, additional cost from 11 panels to 20 panels is like $4K only. And 2nd, I want to fill up my 2nd floor roof east, south, west faces. This is for aesthetic purpose. I hate to put 3 panels on the roof face while it will fit 6. Worst is I put up 3 now, and later add 3 more but panel model, size, look changes. I will have different panel on the same roof face.

As for my, or actually my wife's commute pattern, she drove about 10-15 miles per day including pick up kids and commute. Average working day in a year is like 260? x15 mile/day, so 3900 miles. I will use 1.9mi/kWh to be more realistic. This translate to 2000 kWh, or 2500kWh including L2 charging lost of 15%. The conversion solar hour for my location is about 1500, so I will need about 1.6kW or 4x 400W panels to cover this usage. But this is our worst case, we both still get free charging at work, so 80% of these usage will be covered by companies.

I totally agree with the rest of your assessment as well. The problem with the cost of installing solar by a contractor is so high, even with NEM2, you really need to size your system properly to get a break even point of 6-8 years. If you over size your system, the annual net kWh push to the grid, you get 3 cents back only, practically nothing. So if you need 4kW system now, and install 8kW, your break even point will go from 6-8 to 12-16. So if you setup your panels before getting EV and didn't account for EV, you won't have enough, still need to rely on grid. If you provision for an EV of 12K mile a year, between the time of setting up panel to time of buying that EV, you are producing extra kWh for 3 cents.

As for the grid, I have concern too. I am on the peninsula side of SF bay, infra is old. If my neighbors all have 1 EVs, and let's say they all pull 50A at night. Grid will 100% go down, and none of us can go to work the next day. Solar cannot help. And I don't see how the infra can be improved without major land development.

As for Tesla/Musk, sorry, no trust from me. I have so many story tell, one almost kill a family.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by Giggler

In California, the supercharger rate is .58kWh during peak hours. After doing some math, the ModelXLR basically has the same economy as my LCI 40i if you’re road tripping or commuting and subject to these charging rates. Home charging rates are barely better (.37-.46kWh off peak, .45-.54kWh peak) or you could spend several thousand dollars on a solar system to cover you. It all seems like added hassle for little in return. I just don’t see the point as a Californian…. I’m at the gas station for 5 minutes every 500 to 600 miles. Nothing could be more convenient.

Quite refreshing to hear from someone who has a realistic perspective on this issue. The equation just does not work for most of us and that does not even take into account the enormous hassle and complication of home charging, wiring, confounding charging rates, plug types, expensive charging hardware, thousands for electrical contractor work, aong with other negatives like solar panels(YUK) and this is all for the home, out on the road you are on your own where it can really get ugly.
I agree about refueling which is so rapid with gasoline that it is not even worth mentioning. Fill ups for me are at 10-14 day intervals sometimes longer and takes less than 5 minutes for an X5/X6 which I have timed after being told that this was impossible by an aggressive EV flag waiver here.

[swainbmw]

You’re comparing apples to oranges I would gladly pay more for the BMW

[swainbmw]

Originally Posted by cobramite

Quite refreshing to hear from someone who has a realistic perspective on this issue. The equation just does not work for most of us and that does not even take into account the enormous hassle and complication of home charging, wiring, confounding charging rates, plug types, expensive charging hardware, thousands for electrical contractor work, aong with other negatives like solar panels(YUK) and this is all for the home, out on the road you are on your own where it can really get ugly.
I agree about refueling which is so rapid with gasoline that it is not even worth mentioning. Fill ups for me are at 10-14 day intervals sometimes longer and takes less than 5 minutes for an X5/X6 which I have timed after being told that this was impossible by an aggressive EV flag waiver here.

Who has the time or wants to wait to charge an EV not something I’m going to do in my lifetime. The extended range is not there and I’m not going out of my way to look for charging stations.

[0_steve]

Make sure to check the insurance rates on model X for a good comparison. I had ordered a model S a few months ago and most insurance companies denied it (same for X). Progressive would with an intro rate roughly double my M50 and that would double again 6 months later to roughly $500/mo. Tesla produces too few of them and the parts are so expensive insurance just totals the car.

If you live in a state that offers Tesla insurance then you have options but they recalculate your rate monthly depending on risk which includes excessive acceleration (you are being monitored) and driving after 10pm.

Crappy situation altogether. My M60 gets built this week.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by 0_steve

Make sure to check the insurance rates on model X for a good comparison. I had ordered a model S a few months ago and most insurance companies denied it (same for X). Progressive would with an intro rate roughly double my M50 and that would double again 6 months later to roughly $500/mo. Tesla produces too few of them and the parts are so expensive insurance just totals the car.

If you live in a state that offers Tesla insurance then you have options but they recalculate your rate monthly depending on risk which includes excessive acceleration (you are being monitored) and driving after 10pm.

Crappy situation altogether. My M60 gets built this week.

Congrats on the M60i. Excellent choice, hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.
Didn't realize that the insurance was such a huge problem with Tesla. Oh well just add that issue to the long list of reasons not to go EV.

[Aimster82]

I would get the BMW.

The Model X will likely depreciate faster. Especially if Tesla actually releases their new batteries. Toyota is supposed to have some game changing battery coming out soon too.

If depreciate is not an issue for you then it's all about personal choice. I think they are good cars

Yeah Elon Musk needs to shut up. At the end of the day who cares about his views. Buy what you like

[nparker13]

Lot of good feedback here. Tesla and X5 50e owner here. My 2c:

Range anxiety is a non issue for me with the supercharger network but my wife is the opposite story.

One note not covered is Autopilot vs BMW. I have FSD and Driver Assist Pro so not sure what comes stock but the BMW hands free is cool but it will nag you way too quickly for it to be convenient. I find it I take a sip of coffee it’s nagging me. Where with Autopilot (without FSD engaged) it’s much more flexible and convenient but you do have to keep your hands on the wheel. Lane change is better with Tesla as it will do it all on its own.

Maintenace like others have said is a big difference.

Also I don’t trust the BMW preconditioning (yet) for our dogs, so Dog mode on the Tesla is a big plus for us (can see temperature and check in on cameras thru app).

Parking assist is much better in BMW. Heads up is nice too. CarPlay I’m indifferent about bc Tesla maps is solid but the text messaging is better with CarPlay so that’s a plus.

I love the auto open and close in the X.

Elon factor unfortunately does suck. Hate to support the guy at this point.

[jad03060]

FWIW, you can tell from the app whether the HVAC is functioning on the PHEV, and, while it's on a timer, you can restart it from there if need be.

[bono]

Why do you think Elon needs to shut up, if you don't care about his views? Interesting logic.

Originally Posted by Aimster82

I would get the BMW.

The Model X will likely depreciate faster. Especially if Tesla actually releases their new batteries. Toyota is supposed to have some game changing battery coming out soon too.

If depreciate is not an issue for you then it's all about personal choice. I think they are good cars

Yeah Elon Musk needs to shut up. At the end of the day who cares about his views. Buy what you like

[swainbmw]

Originally Posted by Aimster82

I would get the BMW.

The Model X will likely depreciate faster. Especially if Tesla actually releases their new batteries. Toyota is supposed to have some game changing battery coming out soon too.

If depreciate is not an issue for you then it's all about personal choice. I think they are good cars

Yeah Elon Musk needs to shut up. At the end of the day who cares about his views. Buy what you like

His mouth is exactly one reason I’m never owning one and if I had bought one, it would have been sold .

[admranger]

Originally Posted by 0_steve

Make sure to check the insurance rates on model X for a good comparison. I had ordered a model S a few months ago and most insurance companies denied it (same for X). Progressive would with an intro rate roughly double my M50 and that would double again 6 months later to roughly $500/mo. Tesla produces too few of them and the parts are so expensive insurance just totals the car.

If you live in a state that offers Tesla insurance then you have options but they recalculate your rate monthly depending on risk which includes excessive acceleration (you are being monitored) and driving after 10pm.

Crappy situation altogether. My M60 gets built this week.

I was just about to ask about the cost of insurance. That can be a deal breaker.

[darylp310]

Ywxxbear have you considered getting a BMW iX? After owning X5s for the past 10 years and spending lots of time renting Model Xs from Turo, I found the iX to be the best of both worlds. All the torque of the Model X, but the refinement and luxury of BMW. I also found the Drivers Assistance on the BMW to be superior to AP and FSD. Driving 4-5 hours straight from LA to Vegas is a breeze. I’m not tired at all due to the comfort of the iX. It’s been a life-changer for me. I look forward to driving every day. Haven’t felt this giddy about a new car in 20 years!!

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by nparker13

One note not covered is Autopilot vs BMW. I have FSD and Driver Assist Pro so not sure what comes stock but the BMW hands free is cool but it will nag you way too quickly for it to be convenient. I find it I take a sip of coffee it’s nagging me. Where with Autopilot (without FSD engaged) it’s much more flexible and convenient but you do have to keep your hands on the wheel. Lane change is better with Tesla as it will do it all on its own.

A fellow LCI owner had recently posted on this forum that iDrive8.5 improves Driver Assist Pro in the ways that we’re complaining about. It engages assist pro on the freeway by default so you don’t have to manually select it. There is less random inexplicable disengaging of its function, and fewer warnings from perceived distractions such as sipping from a cup. For lane changes, if you’re using the BMW navigation, the HUD will prompt you to engage the lane change blinker, which is helpful, but maybe a future update will make it completely autonomous like in the new 5 series in this link. According to the article, the feature relies on the front camera to track movement… so it should be a possible future update for the LCI X5 also.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2023/04/25/2...5-lane-change/