BMW X5
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-17-2018, 12:28 AM   #45
montpier
New Member
United_States
24
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: 2018 F36 440xi GC
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nashville

iTrader: (0)

Most of you certainly know a lot more about cars than I do, but I do know quite a bit about consumer surveys and have no reason to believe that JD Power is getting paid off by companies in some fashion to skew ratings as was implied by at least one post. (How the survey results might be let's say, leveraged by individual manufacturers is another matter. Also while some companies, if not most, subscribe to receive more in-depth reporting of the results, this should have no impact on the results -- JD Power would not last long in the industry if this were the case as opposed to silly self-reported polls with no rigor that pop up on various websites and pretty much useless.)

No survey is "perfect" and whether looking at 3 years of ownership is the most indicative time frame is debatable. There is obviously some level of subjectivity, which yes, possibly means that cars with more (complicated) features might be thought to have more "problems" -- it is noted that things like voice recognition and bluetooth connectivity which were not factors 10 years ago are among the current more problematic areas -- and no, these "problems" have not been objectively measured in a controlled clinical environment. Also, there is no mention of the variability around these ratings, that is, one brand may have many with no problems & many with many problems and end up with similar scores as as another brand that more typically has a few issues but no reports with none or with a lot of problems. But in any case there's almost always going to be an anecdotal observation that might be atypical or an anomaly.

However, assuming the methodology (e.g., sampling, questionnaire design, survey platform, etc.) is mostly consistent year-on-year this should be a fairly good indicator of relative and trended "scores" of perceived problems per brand based upon 3 year old cars.

What I have not seen anyone mention that could perhaps "distort" these trends is product/model mix for a brand based upon new/refresh model cycles or perhaps even cost mix: for example would you expect a BMW "sample" to vary if one year had a new 3 series vs. another time frame which included a new X5. Or comparing a year when there were a lot of completely new models and/or a new engine vs. a year with perhaps just a few LCI's and no new tech/engine designs.

Also BTW as surveys migrated from mail paper surveys in the "old" days to online surveys and now, more recently people are perhaps taking those online surveys on a small smartphone screen rather than a laptop, that could possibly impact trending and have disproportionate impact on one brand vs. another.

Last edited by montpier; 02-17-2018 at 05:26 PM.. Reason: "implied" more accurate than "suggested"
Appreciate 1
scrammer420.50
      02-17-2018, 01:01 AM   #46
MalibuBimmer
Founder, Knights of the Roundel website
MalibuBimmer's Avatar
United_States
967
Rep
1,723
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 and 2018 AMG GT
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Santa Monica Mountains, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 Mercedes AMG GT  [0.00]
2018 Audi Q3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [10.00]
Point taken. But if you have enough surveys -- like JD Power does -- everybody wins something.

Best ashtrays

Best seat backs

Best rear seat armrests

Obviously these are not the real categories, but JD Power has enough categories so that everyone wins. (The "participation trophies" I was referring to above.) And who selects these categories (and pays for them)? Why the manufacturers.
__________________
Previously: 2014 i8; 2013 650i convertible; 2013 650i Gran Coupe; 2013 X1; 2010 550i GT; 2010 535 GT; 2010 Z4 3.5; 2008 535ixt; 2007 M6 convertible; 2006 650i convertible; 1996 Z3; 1980 633CSi; 1978 630CS; 1972 3.0CS; 1971 Bavaria. (1971; 1979-2005 & 2017 - ? -- the Mercedes years.)

Last edited by MalibuBimmer; 02-17-2018 at 08:52 AM..
Appreciate 1
      02-17-2018, 02:51 AM   #47
THOR48
Private
THOR48's Avatar
53
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: BMW X3 M Competition
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: St. Louis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlstyle View Post
One more reason to get a Porsche.
Getting a Porsche is good....if you get a well built one and it's under warranty.
Appreciate 1
d05wtt22.50
      02-17-2018, 03:54 AM   #48
yco
i'm just saying
yco's Avatar
5723
Rep
2,634
Posts

Drives: E71 X6M '10 (sold)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Istanbul & Kyiv

iTrader: (0)

KIA ll come somewhere nice if they wont screw it up in 10 years at most..
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 04:44 AM   #49
eluded
2JZ-GTE
eluded's Avatar
Bulgaria
2959
Rep
3,948
Posts

Drives: 340 6MT, 50e, others
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Sofia

iTrader: (0)

JD should do a survey result at the ten year mark.
Appreciate 1
RABAUKE4653.00
      02-17-2018, 08:29 AM   #50
MilehighM3
Brigadier General
MilehighM3's Avatar
United_States
910
Rep
3,452
Posts

Drives: Harrop E90 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (14)

Garage List
2009 E90 M3  [6.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eluded View Post
JD should do a survey result at the ten year mark.
This is pointless. Too many issues with the cars will be attributed to neglect, under maintaining cars, abuse, improper repairs/poor workmanship and modifications without prior knowledge by the current owner. The cars will have been passed on to too many new owners to have any relevance pertaining to the problems with the car. Example- the first oil change went 2-5k mike over, along with the rest. Now the car has an engine related issue and it's the fault of a previous owner.
Appreciate 1
scrammer420.50
      02-17-2018, 08:41 AM   #51
Brasko
#LSBM3
Brasko's Avatar
No_Country
1418
Rep
1,973
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW M3
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Oregon / Florida

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
This chart makes it seem like Lexus is synonymous with Luxury, which it's far from.

And Buick? The only time you hear of that brand is in advertisements during golf season.
__________________


/// M3
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 08:53 AM   #52
MalibuBimmer
Founder, Knights of the Roundel website
MalibuBimmer's Avatar
United_States
967
Rep
1,723
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 and 2018 AMG GT
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Santa Monica Mountains, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 Mercedes AMG GT  [0.00]
2018 Audi Q3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilehighM3 View Post
This is pointless. Too many issues with the cars will be attributed to neglect, under maintaining cars, abuse, improper repairs/poor workmanship and modifications without prior knowledge by the current owner. The cars will have been passed on to too many new owners to have any relevance pertaining to the problems with the car. Example- the first oil change went 2-5k mike over, along with the rest. Now the car has an engine related issue and it's the fault of a previous owner.
Subarus will win any 10 year contest.
__________________
Previously: 2014 i8; 2013 650i convertible; 2013 650i Gran Coupe; 2013 X1; 2010 550i GT; 2010 535 GT; 2010 Z4 3.5; 2008 535ixt; 2007 M6 convertible; 2006 650i convertible; 1996 Z3; 1980 633CSi; 1978 630CS; 1972 3.0CS; 1971 Bavaria. (1971; 1979-2005 & 2017 - ? -- the Mercedes years.)
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 09:00 AM   #53
RABAUKE
Banned
Canada
4653
Rep
1,395
Posts

Drives: Porsche 993, 2014 MB GLK
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: The Golden Horseshoe, Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilehighM3 View Post
This is pointless. Too many issues with the cars will be attributed to neglect, under maintaining cars, abuse, improper repairs/poor workmanship and modifications without prior knowledge by the current owner. The cars will have been passed on to too many new owners to have any relevance pertaining to the problems with the car. Example- the first oil change went 2-5k mike over, along with the rest. Now the car has an engine related issue and it's the fault of a previous owner.
True, but as we all know some cars are on the road much longer than others. Toyotas seem to go to the scrap heap much later than others. 70% of all Porsches are still on the road, so maybe long term testing might be interesting.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 10:07 AM   #54
MilehighM3
Brigadier General
MilehighM3's Avatar
United_States
910
Rep
3,452
Posts

Drives: Harrop E90 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (14)

Garage List
2009 E90 M3  [6.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilehighM3 View Post
This is pointless. Too many issues with the cars will be attributed to neglect, under maintaining cars, abuse, improper repairs/poor workmanship and modifications without prior knowledge by the current owner. The cars will have been passed on to too many new owners to have any relevance pertaining to the problems with the car. Example- the first oil change went 2-5k mike over, along with the rest. Now the car has an engine related issue and it's the fault of a previous owner.
Subarus will win any 10 year contest.
You do know they have a massive issue with oil consumption, right? They are getting engine replacements under a warranty extension across the board on the non turbo engines. We're talking millions of cars, not hundreds or thousands.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 10:27 AM   #55
wknddrivr
Lieutenant
United_States
463
Rep
534
Posts

Drives: E36 M3/E39 M5
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Wait until you sit in a Chrysler 300 lol. One of the worst modern interiors I've experienced. It's a panel gap party!
It drives okay, but yeah the interior blows. And whats with the seats? They're awful

The Challenger is even worse
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 10:58 AM   #56
TodmordenLad
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
2746
Rep
3,908
Posts

Drives: Audi A4 Avant
Join Date: May 2015
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Not surprised to see Land Rover struggling at the bottom - seems like every other new LR I see on the road is on the back of a pick up truck!
__________________
Owned: 440i GC LCI with MPPSK, F31 330D M Sport with MPPK, F11 530D SE, F11 520D SE, E61 530D M Sport, E36 325i plus many MB's, Audi's & Volvo's
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 10:58 AM   #57
Germanauto
Major General
Germanauto's Avatar
United_States
9666
Rep
6,075
Posts

Drives: Alfa Romeo Giulia, Rosso
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssquared View Post
It drives okay, but yeah the interior blows. And whats with the seats? They're awful

The Challenger is even worse
Yup it is super smooth and comfortable to drive. Decent power too and quite handsome to look at. I can understand the appeal.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 11:06 AM   #58
rad doc
Lieutenant
252
Rep
513
Posts

Drives: 1M AW loaded
Join Date: May 2011
Location: texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TodmordenLad View Post
Not surprised to see Land Rover struggling at the bottom - seems like every other new LR I see on the road is on the back of a pick up truck!
Yep, and we owners put up with it because they are amazing! Kills the X lineup!
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 12:48 PM   #59
F32Fleet
Lieutenant General
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
3540
Rep
10,327
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeastern US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rad doc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlstyle View Post
One more reason to get a Porsche.
Meh. I've yet to be convinced that they score high because of high quality vs the vast majority of the cars are garage queens with minimal content.
Nope. Dont think so since their number one selling vehicle is the macan.
haha.. I bet with 5k mile/yr leases. hehe
__________________
"Drive more, worry less. "

435i, MPPK, MPE, M-Sport Line
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 02:04 PM   #60
mecheng77
Colonel
mecheng77's Avatar
Canada
1005
Rep
2,239
Posts

Drives: 2007 328i / 2014 M235i
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ontario Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
  [0.00]
  [0.00]
Initial Quality surveys mean very little. It is basically saying how many small gremlins you have to take your car in for, big deal.

I want to know how well the car does after the warrante expires. For this in my experience, Honda has been good but they rust so whats the point when the car disintegrates. Volvo's have a couple of small issues, but they are easy to fix, parts are cheap and the engines, bodies and transmissions are bullet proof, so they get my nod. I have zero rust on my 2 Volvos and they are plenty old

My BMW so far has been bulletproof and is an amazing driving experience.

I have many friends with Hyundai and they have been horrible, blow diffs, blown turbo engines. They aren't much cheaper than a comparable Honda so why bother.

Yes Porsche may have great initial reliability, they drive amazing, but when something fails the parts are very expensive. This survey doesn't tell you that even though i Love them.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 03:10 PM   #61
48Laws
Banned
705
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: '15 F80, '18 991.2 GTS
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

Well, JD Power & Associates is a privately held marketing company started by James David Power. Someone’s paying them. Everything has a price.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 06:25 PM   #62
montpier
New Member
United_States
24
Rep
24
Posts

Drives: 2018 F36 440xi GC
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nashville

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer View Post
Point taken. But if you have enough surveys -- like JD Power does -- everybody wins something.
Yep, agree ... and no doubt JD Power is looking to enhance its presence (and appeal to its manufacturer subscriber base). But still might require a category like "best small car from Italian manufacturer sold in the US" or "best Italian marque starting with 'F' and not ending with 'i" for Fiat to come out on top.

The categories and selected time frame or what constitutes a "problem" may be arbitrary and the rankings based upon differences that technically-speaking might that not really be statistically significant.

But at the end of the day, for those of you who do have broad exposure to different cars over time: would you tend to say that, let's say, if you purchase a Jaguar you'll probably become more familiar with the service waiting area than if you had purchased perhaps a Lexus?

Or more appropriate for this forum; I'm certainly no expert having only owned three BMW's (2003, 2005, 2011) and about to pick up a fourth, but for those of you with considerably more experience -- leaving aside issues such as whether still offering MT on some models, etc.:

Do you feel that BMW build quality/reliability has improved over time and now comparable to brands like Lexus/Infiniti which at one point years ago did open up a perceived quality gap vs. the German premium marques?

Have BMW electronics and iDrive become more user-friendly and less quirky?

Have the Korean makes stepped up their game and eventually achieve more prestige status and command higher price value?

And does this seem to be reflected in something like the JD Power ratings over an extended period of time?

While year-on-year ratings might uncover a major issue for a particular model year one would expect/hope that manufacturer service reporting would have flagged this much earlier. But it's longer term trends and how the brands are performing vs. key competitors that tends to provide the real value for these kinds of syndicated tracking surveys.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 07:06 PM   #63
TheBingoBalls
Brigadier General
TheBingoBalls's Avatar
Canada
3805
Rep
4,655
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by montpier View Post

Do you feel that BMW build quality/reliability has improved over time and now comparable to brands like Lexus/Infiniti which at one point years ago did open up a perceived quality gap vs. the German premium marques?

Have BMW electronics and iDrive become more user-friendly and less quirky?
I think they have. As good as the E46 was, it was an electric nightmare, or at least the E46 coupe we had in the family. The worse of it all was the transmission going. The E9X for the most part was leaps/bounds better than the E46 with regards to reliability from what I've experienced (E90, E92 and E93). My F36 is just under 6 months old and so far nothing to note but it's too early but I don't think I'm going to encounter any serious problems like I did with the E46.

As for iDrive, there's not much to say. BMW more than any other brand has done more to their infotainment system to make it easily the best in the market. While everyone jumped on the CarPlay bandwagon, BMW continued to improve iDrive.

At least with my experience, where BMW ranks pretty much reflects my experiences.

Last edited by TheBingoBalls; 02-17-2018 at 07:11 PM..
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 07:13 PM   #64
2000Z3M
Captain
639
Rep
847
Posts

Drives: 2016 435i ZHP
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Laws View Post
Well, JD Power & Associates is a privately held marketing company started by James David Power. Someone’s paying them. Everything has a price.
he sold it off
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 07:26 PM   #65
48Laws
Banned
705
Rep
1,908
Posts

Drives: '15 F80, '18 991.2 GTS
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
he sold it off
Gotcha.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2018, 08:48 PM   #66
uniqueMR
Colonel
uniqueMR's Avatar
1879
Rep
2,923
Posts

Drives: ...
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlstyle View Post
One more reason to get a Porsche.
__________________
Currently: '24 Mercedes G63 | '24 Porsche GT3 RS | '24 Volkswagen GTI
Previous BMWs: 340i, 740i, 745Li, M3, M4
Previous Others: Audi, Ducati, Honda, Infiniti, Land Rover, Mercedes-Benz, MINI, Mitsubishi, Porsche, Toyota, Volkswagen
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:29 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST