[LDT]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...0ab21132sha256

[TurtleBoy]

Don't worry, there likely will come a time where the government will cover their losses just so they can continue producing EV's.

[BlkGS]

Nothing new. Tesla is the only EV maker to make any money, and they only make money because everyone else had to pay for their infrastructure and the carbon credit and cafe fuel economy markets.

[mscot]

This sounds like a tax write-off scheme to me. Kinda like how Amazon makes no money.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by mscot

This sounds like a tax write-off scheme to me. Kinda like how Amazon makes no money.

It's more like a "all the expenses of the business unit divided by the number of vehicles sold" kinds deal. A lot of costs not related at all to the vehicles actually being sold being attributed to them. I get why the number is appealing, but it's a bit less factual. All the development costs for the product coming after mach e and lightning is kinda lumped in. It's not super realistic.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

It's more like a "all the expenses of the business unit divided by the number of vehicles sold" kinds deal. A lot of costs not related at all to the vehicles actually being sold being attributed to them. I get why the number is appealing, but it's a bit less factual. All the development costs for the product coming after mach e and lightning is kinda lumped in. It's not super realistic.

Agreed, ramping up production is part of the process and Ford is pretty early in on that. One could just as easily look at a brand new ICE vehicle factory and declare that a manufacturer has 'lost' $1M for every one of the first thousand cars they build.

I'm not an accountant but I don't think it's all that useful to look at the numbers like this.

[LDT]

While I did not post the C/D article to start another EV bashing thread it's just my opinion but I think ppl who wanted EV's have them and the rest of us don't or will go the PHEV route. As is customary, Governments (Fed and State) have put the cart before the horse with all of their mandates. Logic would dictate that the charging infrastructure should have come first. Granted that many EV owners charge their vehicles at home or in some cases, at work and that's all they need. But I cannot imagine taking a cross country road trip in a EV. And what happens when the entirety of south FL is ordered to evacuate because of an oncoming Cat 4 hurricane? Central FL will be a quagmire of dead EVs. I like that Toyota and Honda are "dipping their toes" into the EV water unlike many other manufacturers who are all-in. Toyota and Honda did not get where they are by making off the cuff decisions and the American auto industry has a history of making one bad decision after another. The Germans are somewhere in between EV wise. And yes, you guessed it, I'm not a fan of the EV. It's like driving an iPad with wheels.

[BlkGS]

I kind of agree. We have reached saturation in the EV market. The only factors that will affect EV adoption going forward are cost and quality. I think EV adoption will slow until cost parity is achieved with ICE

Or of course, we let unelected bureaucrats force us into EVa so they can get rich off us.

[SteVTEC]

I checked my local Ford dealership today, and they have 57 unsold 2023 Mach-E sitting on the lot, and still 17 2023 F-150 Lightning. People just aren't buying them. So as bad as the numbers look, it's actually worse than that because the dealers are still shouldering tons of unsold inventory.

[shed]

A few things here.

1) Range anxiety is real, and even if there are chargers on the road it still takes time. I think it only makes sense for 2+ car households where you can charge.
2) Electricity prices are through the roof in many parts of the country and unless you have solar and storage it's challenging economically
3) PHEV is a better option for many, and even regular hybrids.

I'm one of those rare birds that is both a firm a firm believer in carbon caused climate change *and* a free marketer. As such the right economic principle is for consumers to pay for the cost of the externalities. In other words the only car regulation or even general regulation of energy we need is carbon tax. It's right for the environment. It's right for the economy. It properly assigns the cost, and then the free market will do its thing.

Unfortunately it's politically untenable.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

I checked my local Ford dealership today, and they have 57 unsold 2023 Mach-E sitting on the lot, and still 17 2023 F-150 Lightning. People just aren't buying them. So as bad as the numbers look, it's actually worse than that because the dealers are still shouldering tons of unsold inventory.

I would probably buy a light ing if it didn't have that terrible vertical screen. A loaded Lariat or Platinum would be a great around town vehicle and for trips to Home Depot, but but once you get a lariat you're stuck with that screen. You can get a traditional landscape screen in XLT, but not cooled seats or a pano roof or other options I want. We would take the expedition on longer trips and any large towing trips. They have price Parrott, and even price advantage on 2023 lightnings, but that vertical.screen is truly a deal breaker. It's hideous and terrible.


Mach E is just garbage. It's basically a focus hatchback sized but with way more cost and a way cheaper interior.

[jad03060]

Where the charging infrastructure is more mature, companies offer more EVs, plus, the US isn’t a big market for many of the smaller choices out there, so they don’t even try to market them here.

When BMW built the i3, the design was such that it wasn’t economical in large quantities. BMW found that the demand was higher than they projected, and built another production line to keep up, but the CFRP frame while an innovation in cycle time worked for what it was designed for, it was not something that worked for really high volume - it was designed for about 25K max per year, but at its peak, sold a lot more. I had one, really liked it, but needed an ICE to complete my transportation needs/desires. Once a PHEV had a big enough battery to handle my daily needs, I sold them both, but the i3 was a lot of fun to drive, and zip around…you could park it nearly anywhere.

The infrastructure bill allocated a fairly big amount of money to expand the DC-fast charging networks, but there was a lot of pressure to not do it, some of it by the fossil fuel industry’s cohorts. States have also been slow to comply with the mandated increase in those charging units.

More and more vehicle manufacturers in the USA have made agreements with Tesla to start to use their supercharger network, BMW included. I’m not positive, but you may start to see that in some 2025 MY vehicles, probably more likely in BEVs versus PHEVs.

It’s a classic chicken or egg situation. It IS possible to travel crosscountry with a BEV, but it’s not as seamless as doing it in a PHEV or ICE vehicle which has lots more places to refill, and works faster. Next year should see the first production vehicle with solid state batteries, but finding a DC fast charging station that can take full advantage of them may be sparse…but if you do, it can almost be as fast as filling a gas tank.

The average commuter in the USA is easily within the battery range of more and more vehicles. Then, not everyone ever drives their vehicles very far, and may opt for a plane (might be a train in other parts of the world, not so good here, though). For those that can’t charge at home, an EV can be a big problem in the USA…works for some, but not many. But if you can recharge at home, that opens up the viability for many more people.

[nZtiZia]

I bought the 45e PHEV on a whim, and it’s turned out very well for us. my weekly commutes to work are completely powered by electric, and with solar, I’m able to rely less on the grid when recharging. road trips aren’t delayed due to charging needs along the way since gasoline provides the power, but I’m also able to rely less on gasoline, too. I only need to fill up when we have a road trip. this year we have three, so only three fill-ups this year. (it used to be every 2 weeks with my previous Audi Q7.)

that said, we won’t buy a full EV. my wife (who drives a 530e) wanted to get the fully electric i5, but we ran into a situation recently where my 45e’s sunroof leaked the day before a road trip, so we took hers. had she had the i5, that trip would’ve sucked because of the need to stop and charge along the way

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by shed

A few things here.

1) Range anxiety is real, and even if there are chargers on the road it still takes time. I think it only makes sense for 2+ car households where you can charge.
2) Electricity prices are through the roof in many parts of the country and unless you have solar and storage it's challenging economically
3) PHEV is a better option for many, and even regular hybrids.

I'm one of those rare birds that is both a firm a firm believer in carbon caused climate change *and* a free marketer. As such the right economic principle is for consumers to pay for the cost of the externalities. In other words the only car regulation or even general regulation of energy we need is carbon tax. It's right for the environment. It's right for the economy. It properly assigns the cost, and then the free market will do its thing.

Unfortunately it's politically untenable.

To add, gas cars in the US realistically create so much less carbon dioxide than other things that are politically untenable. Air travel, transoceanic shipping, private jets and yachts, the 3rd world and it's total lack of emission controls, China... All these dwarf the amount of CO2 emitted by cars in the US, but it was decided that EVs were the best way for Congress to get richer while not inconveniencing their financiers. Can't ban private jets or yachts, the rich have those and don't want to be inconvenienced.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by jad03060

It’s a classic chicken or egg situation. It IS possible to travel crosscountry with a BEV, but it’s not as seamless as doing it in a PHEV or ICE vehicle which has lots more places to refill, and works faster. Next year should see the first production vehicle with solid state batteries, but finding a DC fast charging station that can take full advantage of them may be sparse…but if you do, it can almost be as fast as filling a gas tank.

Which production vehicles will have solid state batteries in 2025? I've been keeping up with green car news a bit lately, and what I keep reading is that this technology is still many years away.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Which production vehicles will have solid state batteries in 2025? I've been keeping up with green car news a bit lately, and what I keep reading is that this technology is still many years away.

None, we are years away from them. Maybe 2027 but that is tenuous.


https://www.engineering.com/story/so...than-you-think

[shed]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

To add, gas cars in the US realistically create so much less carbon dioxide than other things that are politically untenable. Air travel, transoceanic shipping, private jets and yachts, the 3rd world and it's total lack of emission controls, China... All these dwarf the amount of CO2 emitted by cars in the US, but it was decided that EVs were the best way for Congress to get richer while not inconveniencing their financiers. Can't ban private jets or yachts, the rich have those and don't want to be inconvenienced.

You don't need to ban anything of course. Just price carbon globally, and now everything is priced correctly, govmt can get out o fthe way and everyone makes the right decision economically.

{conveniently ignores fact that if one country can't agree to this, how would we get the world to}

[jad03060]

FWIW, China last year installed more solar cells than the US has installed since they first became available…not saying that they don’t still pollute a LOT, but they are trying at least somewhat to cut back. I visited there once, way back in the early 80’s shortly after it was opened up to ‘regular’ visitors…pollution was really nasty. Probably still is in many areas, but it’s getting better. Those that lived in the LA area years ago probably feel things are better now.

BMW tried to make the i3 pretty green…their CF components were sourced where there was excess hydro power, they used the cutoffs of CF to make the roof panels, so minimal waste, and everything was planned to be recyclable. Germany has for a long time mandated vehicles be recyclable, but while possible, it’s not done everywhere. There’s at least one new cargo ship on the ocean now with sails.

Range anxiety, while real, isn’t as big of a deal as many make it out to be. It does take some advanced planning that people will have to learn, and many are not willing, or don’t understand it and can lead to big problems. It’s not for everyone, but after a while, we may no longer have a choice.

[jad03060]

One company said they will have a small production of vehicles with SS batteries starting sometime in 2025. I read that sometime in the last few months. Now, whether it turns out to be true or not, we’ll have to wait and see. I wouldn’t hold my breath, but there are incremental improvements occurring regularly and on a small production line, that sort of thing is more possible.

[shed]

Originally Posted by LDT

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...0ab21132sha256

BTW didn't see anything on how they allocated fixed cost, and what is marginal cost, so I kinda take the headline number with a pinch of salt. We need proper micro-econ marginal cost analysis here, not some accounting allocation, to understand genuine profitablity.

[LDT]

Originally Posted by shed

BTW didn't see anything on how they allocated fixed cost, and what is marginal cost, so I kinda take the headline number with a pinch of salt. We need proper micro-econ marginal cost analysis here, not some accounting allocation, to understand genuine profitablity.

You have high expectations of the media not that I disagree with you. Sexy outlandish claims sell magazines.

[jad03060]

A company’s CAFE without some of the EVs and PHEVs may make the other vehicles they sell end up costing a bunch more…so, some of it is all in looking at the big picture and understanding the real costs.