[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

My 997TT was a 6 speed, and I always felt like I could never use the car to its full potential. It was fun, but frustrating losing boost between gears. On my GT3 I'm sure I would feel the same way, struggling to keep it in the power band with a manual. Personally I feel like using the paddles and shifting the PDK manually is just as fun and rewarding (albeit in a different way) as a manual transmission. If you can't have fun driving a GT3 regardless of transmission, you're doing something wrong.

Sorry, but they are only just as fun and rewarding for people who aren't good at driving a manual. I'm not against dual clutches at all, but matching revs between gears on track is such a great experience especially if it doesn't distract you from your driving.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Sorry, but they are only just as fun and rewarding for people who aren't good at driving a manual. I'm not against dual clutches at all, but matching revs between gears on track is such a great experience especially if it doesn't distract you from your driving.

Sure, if that's your thing then a manual makes sense for you. I love manuals, but you buy your cars for a different purpose than I do. I just happen to prefer dual clutches for my cars because I use them differently than you, and I think different things are fun and rewarding than you do.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by 991GT3

The ever tiresome "the car drives itself" argument. Do honestly believe that?
If so, you better go tell F1 drivers they're not really driving their vehicles.
I suppose you want ABS gone too?

I don't believe all assists are unnecessary. Traction control is great for people who don't want to think about traction limits and good for all the current turbocharged cars with massive torque at low RPM so people don't go spinning out all over the place.

ABS is something I could probably do without. The cars I owned were without ABS until 12 years ago. I could probably just modulate and pump the brake pedal on track as I used to. That does not detract from my driving experience.

Really, most automated systems and assists are just there to remove the driver from the driving to go faster (even in F1) - because most of the time its the driver who is holding back the car from going faster.

It's only a matter of time before we create an AI that can "drive" faster than a human - why not just take the person out of the equation entirely? It'll be massively faster than the human driven car, but is it still fun?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Z K

why not just take the person out of the equation entirely? It'll be massively faster than the human driven car, but is it still fun?

This is completely bogus reasoning.

Manual transmissions weren't created for fun, they were created to solve an engineering problem. Techniques like heel / toe weren't created for fun, they were required to extract the most speed as possible from the engineered conveyance. A dual clutch gear box wasn't created to be a buzz kill, it's the next evolution of solving an engineering problem without compromising the speed of the vehicle and hopefully adding to it.

And a dual-clutch isn't just about 1/10 of a second and anyone who thinks that hasn't raced them. DCTs are faster because it removes a distraction to racing and adds speed at every point a shift is needed - the skill is car placement and driving the right line, not shifting. This adds full seconds or more to everyone but the most skilled MT drivers while also making great times accessible to people without 10,000 hours in a manual.

The whole argument is like saying an author is having less fun typing his book rather than writing cursive... which completely misses the point: creating the story.

IF you like an MT that's great, drive one! You'll never be as fast in it as you could be in a DCT and that's just facts not a debate. If you don't care about that then cool.

NET-NET
If you want to be as fast as you possibly can you drive a DCT, if that's not your top priority then you drive an MT. Those are just the facts, no debate needed.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

IF you like an MT that's great, drive one! You'll never be as fast in it as you could be in a DCT and that's just facts not a debate.

Why did you just type that long winded post? Not one person in here has ever debated a manual is quicker than a DCT.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Why did you just type that long winded post? Not one person in here has ever debated a manual is quicker than a DCT.

That's a good question Blip, I kinda drifted a bit, and it coulda been the tequila, but I'm not making excuses.

My point was the "let's just remove the driver" hyperbole has a match in the other direction: if we're celebrating needless physical motions let's say that on the track every turn requires blinkers, and anyone who uses their hand instead of their knee is a pussy.

Point being, the MT wasn't designed as a super fun added rube goldberg way to pilot a car - it was a required device which is now archaic and no longer required.

That doesn't mean an MT isn't fun and it's how I grew up so it's nostalgic for me, but I'd never have an MT on my fast car. So just saying, let's not go thinking that because we add unnecessary motions to piloting a car that it means we're somehow are getting more than others.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

.....the skill is car placement and driving the right line, not shifting.

You nailed it here, although for those of us who prefer manual, the skill is car placement and driving the right line AND shifting. To us that "feels" more fun and we feel we're as you say "getting more than others" by mastering all 3, even if it costs us fractions of a second.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

....if we're celebrating needless physical motions.....

Of course we are, some of best things in life could fall into "needless physical motion" but are still tons of fun. That's what my lovely wife's claims at least By that logic we could all just drink protein shakes all day along and avoid all that "needless physical motion of chewing" but good satisfying meal with friends and family is hard to have over a shake.

Enjoying life (driving in this case, assuming one is not a professional racing driver) is not all about pure efficiency and numbers.

I think both sides of argument are valid, with cars like M, GT3 and supercars, you get so much power, so much speed that it's impossible to not have a blast, no matter the transmission. With others, let's call them "regular" or "lesser" sport cars, I'm yet to drive one with automatic that's as satisfying full driving experience as manual, performance numbers aside.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

To us that "feels" more fun and we feel we're as you say "getting more than others" by mastering all 3, even if it costs us fractions of a second.

Of course we are, some of best things in life could fall into "needless physical motion" but are still tons of fun.

nice! can't argue with any of that ... except for me, the "fractions of a second".

I do road course driving about once every week and I'm far from an expert at both driving as well as excellent MT technique (I'd say I'm good at MT work, mostly it's muscle memory, but I do screw it up sometimes). and I do enjoy MT driving but not when I'm serious.

On a road course the DCT vs MT difference for me is definitely multiple seconds and that appears to be the same for every driver I've ran with across any cars you can run back-to-back DCT vs MT. I guess the point is, for me a DCT gives me more out of my driving than an MT because I'm a faster.

For me an MT on race day is like being the kid that shows up to football practice with used equipment one generation out of date.

[TRZ06]

What is the lateral g of the GT4?

I was reading somewhere online it was 1.5g, but that sounds way too high.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

What is the lateral g of the GT4?

I was reading somewhere online it was 1.5g, but that sounds way too high.

That's the published number ( revdata, wsj ) so who knows if it's right, but the car also has a g-meter and it gets over 1 pretty easily.