[DuckofPrey]

hmm.... well, I don't think you can discuss a bmw track car unless you own a M3CSL. or, a Z4M CSL (if they ever make one).

For what it's worth, my car is a E36 318, and I had a chance to drive a E46 M3 some time ago. I can definately tell you its much faster then my car..... I also tried a C4S. And guess what? It's also much faster then my car!!!

I'm just rambling.... in hopes that it will carlm people down..

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by DTM

I notice alot of you folk like saying:

"335 and e46 m3 have similair hp numbers so they must cost the same!!!!!"

The 335 will not be even close to the E46 M3. The E90 weighs more than the M3 so the power to weight ratio isn't as good, never mind the difference in suspension.

Now at higher altitudes(sp?) the E46M3 will come down in hp due to the thinner air.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by wahoo

3, we're splitting hairs. No, I have no real track experience but know many that race SCCA. Regardless, my 'real world' driving experience with the M vs the Porsche and seat of the pants told me what I just said. The M, while I'm not johnny weekend racer, pushed in hard turns with big throttle..I don't see why my opinion isn't valid.

Your opinion is valid, as an opinion. Now, how we choose to accept your opinion as reality is the question.
So, the M3 pushed in "hard" turns with big throttle?
That just begs the question of your actual driving ability.
Pushes compared to what car? How did you enter the turn?
Was it a 30mph turn and you hit it doing 80mph without usign the brakes to adjust your entry?
Remember, brakes are not just for slowing down, they are actually for car control and can help a car turn.

My opinion, when I read a comment like that, is that the person must not know what they are doing. That's just my opinion.
Wow, the M3 is not a sports car? Ok then.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

Are we to take these comments within the context of today's M cars, or those of yore? I assume the former.

Understeer.

Fade.

Numb.

No complaint here.

Who cares?

I'm sure AMG has something to say about that.

Do mind the fact that I use a general frame of reference for all the above. Things are quite a bit more favorable when comparing the modern M only to the modern competition. Oh, and don't get me wrong - I'm talking about the M3. The M5 is still as brilliant as ever, even in contrast to its predecessors. Of course, the M5 didn't start life as a homologated race car, now did it?

If that were true, why would BMW saddle the thoroughly brilliant (if unrefined) S54 with such a heavy, awkward chassis? At least they still give you a working LSD.

Still waiting to drive the M roadster/M coupe. I suspect this car could finally offer the platform and chassis that the S54 truly deserves. I hear they actually tossed out the base Z4's electronic steering for these cars...

Yes, they did. Seems these days one has to pay more for "older" tech. That is sad.

Still, to say the M3 is not a sports car and pushes that much is simply to be inciteful not insightful. I'm not calling the M3 a race car or a track car. However, given it's very high OEM sport car capabilities, along with it's high level of "luxury", the M3 is still one very capable sports car.
If the M3 weighs too much, blame the market. BMW responded to what the majority of buyers obviously want. Not only do they want the sports car capabilty, they also want the extra comfort features that add the weight.
It's quite and easy remedy really. You can put ANY car on a weight lowering diet and strip it to your liking.
BMW, like any other manufacturer, can't build a car to please everyone according to their specific idea of what is the "ideal" car.
But, if I were to go racing, as many do, the M is certainly a much higher level to start with, obviously, just take a look at it's racing success.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by a burrito

Yes a e46 m3 is a touring coupe not a sports car. Many bmw owners believe that the m3 is a "sports car" because of the caliber that it is regarded as. A m3 is not made to be an out of the box track car but a touring car that has far more capabilities than an average coupe. It is luxurious, fast, athletic, but not a sports car.

The porsche cayenne turbo s does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds as well, does that make it a sports car? No it doesnt. 0-60 designations have nothing to do with the cars abilities, just how well a car can accelerate. On another note, does that make a Amg tuned mercedes a track car out of the box or designated as a sports car? No.....

The e46 m3 is a great car but it is not meant to be a something that would compare to the 911 carrera, lotus elise, vette c6, or even a boxster which are all classified as real sports cars But rather a car that has class and can satisfy bmw's customers who wants more of a raw car out of thier lineup.

Now you're going to start a debate on what a "track car" is and what a "sports car" is or what a "sport coupe" or a "touring car".

You bring up the point of 0-60 times, and then you use it to win a point? I don't think anyone has said that a certain 0-60 or 1/4 mile time makes a vehicle a sports car, track car, race car, trailer queen, etc... So, your point of accel times is moot.

[bos]

I'm pretty sure the only thing everyone can agree on is that this is not a track car:



In any case, E46 M3 > 335 in performance. 335 > E46 M3 in luxury features, like bluetooth and mp3 support! As far as pricing, the new 335 will probably be in the 40's (low 40's barebones, high 40's to 50 equipped). It's not an M car, so BMW will want to sell these at a reasonable rate. No way that will happen at a price point comparable to the old M3.

[mentalbc]

Check this out! http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/330.shtml

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Your opinion is valid, as an opinion. Now, how we choose to accept your opinion as reality is the question.
So, the M3 pushed in "hard" turns with big throttle?
That just begs the question of your actual driving ability.
Pushes compared to what car? How did you enter the turn?
Was it a 30mph turn and you hit it doing 80mph without usign the brakes to adjust your entry?
Remember, brakes are not just for slowing down, they are actually for car control and can help a car turn.

My opinion, when I read a comment like that, is that the person must not know what they are doing. That's just my opinion.
Wow, the M3 is not a sports car? Ok then.

I suppose my 'not a sports car' has ruffled too many feathers. Sure it is but its not one in the purist sense.

Now, since everyone seems to be johnny on the spot about my opinion, whence it comes etc.. . Its opinion, not stated as fact. My cousin was the lead mechanic for TecMark Motorsports in the Speed GT WorldChallenge for 3years and is now on to running a speedshop with Nic Jonnson. I suppose I need to get him online to corroborate my 'opinions'. Given that he sets cars up for a living and given that we agree and given that while the M is a capable if not very capable track car RELATIVE to everything else on the market for the sunshine pushers..it still needs to be set-up to counteract its heft. I'm not going to blame the market. I stand by my original statements. now choke on it. Jaysus, if you 'authorities' would comment on architecture and call it your opinion I wouldn't stomp around like a 3yr old calling you an idiot..simply your opinion.

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Now you're going to start a debate on what a "track car" is and what a "sports car" is or what a "sport coupe" or a "touring car".

You bring up the point of 0-60 times, and then you use it to win a point? I don't think anyone has said that a certain 0-60 or 1/4 mile time makes a vehicle a sports car, track car, race car, trailer queen, etc... So, your point of accel times is moot.

one of the original retorts to my first remark was the M was FOR THE TRACK. Just my opinion, but it seems you don't read prior to posting

'How did you enter the turn'...it doesn' fn' matter pal, its what my body told me.

[Squawks]

I agree with wahoo.

In the purist sense, a real sports car is one that is illegal on the streets and only seen driven on private racetracks (or autocross). You will only see real sports cars on a flatbed being towed or within the confines of a gated race course. Period.

Anything lower, including my previous comment belittling the M5, is not a sports car. In fact, I associate the M5 with a freakish RV that can pull 0-60 in 4.0 seconds. Would anybody give a damn that I own an RV that can go 0-60 in 4.0 seconds? Or a minivan that can do the same? No. Why make an RV that can go 0-60 in 4.0 seconds when you can make a one-seater made of fiberglass that can go 0-60 in 2.0 seconds?

But, this world isn't a purist one so I can respect the opinions of others even if they want to believe the M3, M5, M-RV, or even the 335 to be a sports car. If they want to believe their daily driver is a sports car, so be it.

[DuckofPrey]

Originally Posted by wahoo

My cousin was the lead mechanic for TecMark Motorsports in the Speed GT WorldChallenge for 3years and is now on to running a speedshop with Nic Jonnson. I suppose I need to get him online to corroborate my 'opinions'.

You do that.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Hmmm...the M is a 'track' car??? Its actually a fat, bloated pig that understeers...but hey, to each their own. Its a fabulous touring car, with the luxuries one would expect in a BMW, coupled with a hi revving engine. It actually is fun to run about town in and I'm certain it would be fun at the track but the Boxster is a better balanced car for the track. The 335 will make more reliable hp once the tuners get a hold of it..unlike the crazy rpms turning in the e46... do you not remember the ka-boom of the S54???? One more reason for the M to be a V8. And while I'm certain the new M will be just fine on the track there are many, many more qualifed cars for dedicated track use than the new M (in price point ) Z06 anyone? The M IS NOT A SPORTS CAR but a touring coupe.

Do you follow sport car racing ..?

Ever hear of the Rolex challange ..?

Here... look for yourself: Link

Or possibly THIS

Point is, you cannot arbitrarilly make ignorant statements such as you have. Not only is the //M3 a track car.. it's dominating almost every devision it races in. Competing neck in neck.. not with the Porsche boxter (lol) but with the 939's ..!

BMW's mainstay is it racing heritage...dolt




-Garrett

[wahoo]

why bother..he'll have to validate who he is with a retinal scan since everyone is so damn uptight about 'credibility'.

[wahoo]

ok Grand Am CUP is supposed to impress me? One series. PTG can't even fcukig finish a race with the M in ALMS. Grand Am is being run into the ground with DPs..anything else is being picked off by either the mustang or porsche...dolt. Grand Am CUP is a support series. Maybe you can come to Sebring or PLM and 'enlighten' me.

Turner Motorsports runs a 325 in the ALMS support series. Look, I want the M to succeed in ALMS but BMW doesn't want to put it up for a full season with factory support when it'll get run into the ground. Wait til homologation of the new platform..then domination will ensue. If you want to talk racing Garrett you're in for a long one with me.

Dominating it is NOT my friend. Look at the sheets yourself. 939?? wtf is that?? 993s don't race anymore for the most part..996/997. But I guess you already knew that.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by Squawks

I agree with wahoo.

In the purist sense, a real sports car is one that is illegal on the streets and only seen driven on private racetracks (or autocross). You will only see real sports cars on a flatbed being towed or within the confines of a gated race course. Period.

Anything lower, including my previous comment belittling the M5, is not a sports car. In fact, I associate the M5 with a freakish RV that can pull 0-60 in 4.0 seconds. Would anybody give a damn that I own an RV that can go 0-60 in 4.0 seconds? Or a minivan that can do the same? No. Why make an RV that can go 0-60 in 4.0 seconds when you can make a one-seater made of fiberglass that can go 0-60 in 2.0 seconds?

But, this world isn't a purist one so I can respect the opinions of others even if they want to believe the M3, M5, M-RV, or even the 335 to be a sports car. If they want to believe their daily driver is a sports car, so be it.

Or what about an SUV that has 520 horsepower and does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds.... that freak'sih enough for you ?

Sport cars are raceable, race cars are not streetable. SCCA & Rolex series is true racing. Unlike NASCAR.

BMW's //m3 is a sport gt car...! peroid

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Or what about an SUV that has 520 horsepower and does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds.... that freak'sih enough for you ?

Sport cars are raceable, race cars are not streetable. SCCA & Rolex series is true racing. Unlike NASCAR.

BMW's //m3 is a sport gt car...! peroid

Did you even know that Rolex is put on by the France family (nascar) and they're to blame for the DP's practically ruining the series?>? Hmmm..guess not.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by wahoo

ok Grand Am CUP is supposed to impress me? One series. PTG can't even fcukig finish a race with the M in ALMS. Grand Am is being run into the ground with DPs..anything else is being picked off by either the mustang or porsche...dolt. Grand Am CUP is a support series. Maybe you can come to Sebring or PLM and 'enlighten' me.

Turner Motorsports runs a 325 in the ALMS support series. Look, I want the M to succeed in ALMS but BMW doesn't want to put it up for a full season with factory support when it'll get run into the ground. Wait til homologation of the new platform..then domination will ensue. If you want to talk racing Garrett you're in for a long one with me.

Dominating it is NOT my friend. Look at the sheets yourself. 939?? wtf is that?? 993s don't race anymore for the most part..996/997. But I guess you already knew that.

My friend.... I will be purchasing a Porsche Cayman S later this year (maybe next)... but that does not mean I cannot give credit to a Formula 1 company that makes a 2-door, 4 seater with a 6year old engine, inline-6 normally asperated that competes with the best in the world and is in 2nd place so far this season. As outdated as that car and engine are.. I can see the light.

What Porsche, Mercedes, Chevrolet (Vette) and Lexus are fearing is the new M3.

BMW is firmly planted in sport car racing... it is not me that made the ludicrist statement of "The M IS NOT A SPORTS CAR but a touring coupe." when refering to track racing.

Time will tell who will hold the Manufacturers title this year...but thats what racing is all about, isn't it ??



-Garrett

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Did you even know that Rolex is put on by the France family (nascar) and they're to blame for the DP's practically ruining the series?>? Hmmm..guess not.

....

And how is that of any importance to this discussion. My points are a valid arguement, no need to dither the conversation !

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

BMW's //m3 is a sport gt car...! peroid

uhhh....sport 'gt' car...as in grand touring??? You said it yourself...'sport grand touring car..! peroid (sic)" hehehehe

You said 'true' racing. Grand Am has become a series dominated by different powerplants but very, very similar shells (DP)>>> sound familiar..called Nascar, same format, packaged differently.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by wahoo

uhhh....sport 'gt' car...as in grand touring??? You said it yourself...'sport grand touring car..! peroid (sic)" hehehehe

You said 'true' racing. Grand Am has become a series dominated by different powerplants but very, very similar shells (DP)>>> sound familiar..called Nascar, same format, packaged differently.

And...?

How does that take way from the fact that the M3 competes and wins... a few years back it won back to back Manufacturers titles..! It's an outdated platform and the new one is comming, but it's still in second place...correct ?

I don't like the Proto's I don't like the decision to run them with the GT's.. but that has nothing to do with YOUR earlier statement.



-Garrett

[wahoo]

*sigh* the initial whining came from my first post. I think you proved most of my points..

"Hmmm...the M is a 'track' car??? Its actually a fat, bloated pig that understeers...but hey, to each their own. Its a fabulous touring car, with the luxuries one would expect in a BMW, coupled with a hi revving engine. It actually is fun to run about town in and I'm certain it would be fun at the track but the Boxster is a better balanced car for the track. The 335 will make more reliable hp once the tuners get a hold of it..unlike the crazy rpms turning in the e46... do you not remember the ka-boom of the S54???? One more reason for the M to be a V8. And while I'm certain the new M will be just fine on the track there are many, many more qualifed cars for dedicated track use than the new M (in price point ) Z06 anyone? The M IS NOT A SPORTS CAR but a touring coupe."

Its a tired platform, yes. It is not supreme and it wasn't in the beginning either. ALMS passed a rule due to BMW using the V8 stuffed in the M. BMW consequently left the series b/c they couldn't compete (in THE ALMS) and be competitive with the 8. Porsche ran past them all day long.

Regardless, I will either be in a 335 sedan or M sedan. I give...the M is the shizz.

[Squawks]

No doubt the M is the shizzle for rizzle. Even if I owned a stock M3 I wouldn't dare say it's a race-car or even a true sports car. For crying out loud, it's heavy as hell and can seat up to 5 people. Then again, it's faster than 99% of all of the other cars on today's roads and if that is how people gauge the definition of a "sports car" so be it. Before they realize that the other 99% of the cars on the road are on the road for the purpose of getting from point A to point B.

Unless you're one of those rice rocket kids driving around town slowly to high-beam other prospective racers in churlish, Fast & Furious style racing.

I was trying hard to think of an analogy and finally came up with one - it's like me going to racing event and seeing that everybody is racing with RV's. They're all bragging about how fast their RVs can go but in the end, they're all still RVs.

In the end, all of the cars you'll get are street legal with airbags, a/c, radios, bumpers, headlights, spare tires, and made of heavy metal with creature comforts and slower than hardcore cars made street-illegal by purists. So if today's street-cars are sports cars, that makes the purists' cars sitting on flatbeds waiting to go to the next race course a super sports cars on 'roids?