[Rob_G77]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

I think you're missing the whole point. There was no ignorance on my part at all. The option was on the window sticker and I paid for it. 5 years ago. There was nothing said, written, blogged, alerted too, mailed, emailed, written in fine print

I'm thinking that when you first setup your connected services there are the appropriate disclaimers. BMW isn't stupid and by using these services, you are agreeing to their terms.

Rob

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Rob_G77

I'm thinking that when you first setup your connected services there are the appropriate disclaimers. BMW isn't stupid and by using these services, you are agreeing to their terms.

Rob

You are correct. He agreed to the terms of the service and subscription periods when he agreed executed the Electronic Subscriber Agreement. It notes the BMW paid subscription period and the customer paid.

"By entering into this agreement, you become a subscriber to the Services ("Subscriber”). The initial term of this agreement is the BMW Paid and Customer Paid Periods specified (a) on the first page of this agreement, (b) in confirmation communications via email or postal service from BMW received upon agreement execution, or (c) as shown under your account at https://connecteddrive.bmwusa.com. Thereafter, a choice of renewal plans may be available based on vehicle eligibility."

Link for mobile app users -ConnectedDrive Terms


BMWAssist_TERMS_and_CONDITIONS_2014_later.pdf

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

I think you're missing the whole point. There was no ignorance on my part at all. The option was on the window sticker and I paid for it. 5 years ago. There was nothing said, written, blogged, alerted too, mailed, emailed, written in fine print, or spoken about having to pay anything for it in the future; for an option that is already installed on the car since day one. Even the dealership had no idea about it happening. The other guy in this blog that brought it up is going through the same thing. This is new, and it's going to be a big deal for the dealers to handle. Ignorance is not knowing and still doing something; stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway. The was no knowledge for anyone at BMW USA, a customer, or the entire BMW US dealer network to be ignorant of. That sounds stupid of BMW. They had to know they were going to get this reaction, or they were stupid.

I think I get where you might be coming from when you refer to the Window Sticker. For example, on my sticker under Executive Package, it simply lists Remote Engine Start, there is no asterisk next to it, no indication of needing to read any footnotes, etc. Under Connectivity, it lists Connected Package Pro features Real Time Traffic, On Street Parking info (select cities) and BMW Remote. Again, there is no asterisk next to it, no indication of needing to read any footnotes. So at first glance one may think that's it, you got it and you got it forever because there it is in black and white with no disclaimers. I mean what's the diff between that and the 8-speed sport auto tranny that is also listed and says 'included'? If Connected Drive services will be automatically deleted upon warranty expiration then will my tranny also stop working at the same time?
Under the standard features it lists Connected Drive Services and Connected Package Pro as 'included'. If that is all you looked at before buying the car and your BMW dealership did not explain the "services", then you may be left with the understanding that these services are like the hardware on your car, its there when you bought it, it will always be there.

However, that's not the world we're living in today, we are in a software world now and your sales person should have educated you on the "services" part of the purchase in that they were only free during the OEM warranty period and after that you would have to purchase the service just like you have to purchase your cell phone service plan even though your cell phone, which you already paid for, has the capability to use the service whether you buy it or not or let it expire and not renew it.

For people who keep their cars a loooong time, they may find themselves going from crank windows to a new G05 and become overwhelmed or in such awe that the technology and modern day practices are unknown, not fully understood. Possibly even an unscrupulous sales person will hold this sort of info back since it can be seen as negative. Possibly in all the excitement of buying a new car, some sign away without reading everything or asking a lot of questions.

However it happened, here you are, stunned and aggravated but it is what it is. So either go to your MyBMW app or log in to your MyBMW acct online, go to your Garage then Your Vehicle Profile and take a look at your Digital Services.

Not sure what else to tell you, I don't like subscription based anything but it does allow for continued updates and somehow someone needs to fund the continuation of software updates because as we all know in life, nothing of value comes for free. You will have to decide if the value you get from these services is worth the annual price. It doesn't really matter what another brand does because year by year, they all follow the leader.

Here are mine.. .. yours will be similar exempt for the "Active" designation.

.


This is what Connected Drive Services looks like if you click the little right arrow for example

[tscharf]

I'm sure the legal interpretation is correct but ...

... you should hopefully not be required to pay for things in connected services if they don't actually depend on connected services. Remote start and other stuff requires BMW to maintain an active cellular connection in the car which costs money so that is tolerable.

Having heated seats come on when the car is started below a certain temperature requires no ongoing costs to BMW. I know the LCI seat heater came on during a cold start recently, not sure if there are any controls for this on iDrive 8.5 or if it will time out.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by tscharf

I'm sure the legal interpretation is correct but ...

... you should hopefully not be required to pay for things in connected services if they don't actually depend on connected services. Remote start and other stuff requires BMW to maintain an active cellular connection in the car which costs money so that is tolerable.

Having heated seats come on when the car is started below a certain temperature requires no ongoing costs to BMW. I know the LCI seat heater came on during a cold start recently, not sure if there are any controls for this on iDrive 8.5 or if it will time out.

Except ConnectedServices also includes a collection of Apps. Some of those use a cell connection and some don't. Climate Rules is one of those apps. Why should it matter if it uses a cell connection or not?

[tscharf]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Except ConnectedServices also includes a collection of Apps. Some of those use a cell connection and some don't. Climate Rules is one of those apps. Why should it matter if it uses a cell connection or not?

It's a business moral / ethics question. If a feature has no ongoing costs to BMW then it stands to reason that they should not gouge the customer for an ongoing subscription charge.

Map updates require ongoing map database work. Remote start via an app requires a cellular modem and ongoing cellular data contracts that BMW must pay for, etc.

Arbitrarily putting something on connected services that doesn't require an app / cellular modem connection / database updates is going to cause PR problems, see heated seat / Apple CarPlay subscriptions of the past.

It just needs to be justifiable.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by tscharf

It's a business moral / ethics question. If a feature has no ongoing costs to BMW then it stands to reason that they should not gouge the customer for an ongoing subscription charge.

Map updates require ongoing map database work. Remote start via an app requires a cellular modem and ongoing cellular data contracts that BMW must pay for, etc.

Arbitrarily putting something on connected services that doesn't require an app / cellular modem connection / database updates is going to cause PR problems, see heated seat / Apple CarPlay subscriptions of the past.

It just needs to be justifiable.

What? Ethical? So you are saying that a company can't develop software and charge for it unless there is an ongoing cost to them (there always is a cost for support/update but put that aside)? That makes no sense whatsoever. There is nothing arbitrary about it, they are apps specifically designed for ConnectedDrive.

The heated seats controversy was created by the press who had no understanding of the program and jumped to sensationalism. If BMW wants to put the hardware into the vehicle and later offer it as a subscription that is perfectly fine. They are currently doing that with a number of options and will continue to do so.

[tscharf]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

What? Ethical? So you are saying that a company can't develop software and charge for it unless there is an ongoing cost to them (there always is a cost for support/update but put that aside)? That makes no sense whatsoever. There is nothing arbitrary about it, they are apps specifically designed for ConnectedDrive.

The heated seats controversy was created by the press who had no understanding of the program and jumped to sensationalism. If BMW wants to put the hardware into the vehicle and later offer it as a subscription that is perfectly fine. They are currently doing that with a number of options and will continue to do so.

And they will continue to annoy customers if it isn't justifiable. BMW doesn't get to make the rules of what is justifiable from the * customer's perspective *. The failure of heated seats and Apple CarPlay subscriptions is not the customer's fault, it is BMW's failure to not make their case in the current market.

I can tell you very specifically I refused to buy a BMW with an Apple CarPlay subscription cost. It's the first question I asked on a recent test drive. This is my decision to make.

BMW rightfully recognized these problems, corrected them, and won back at least one customer worth about 100 years of potential CarPlay subscription revenue. It's perception, BMW actually just embedded the cost. It's like going to a high end hotel today and being charged for WiFi access.

Not all cash grabs are created equal, they need to be reasonable from the consumer perspective. Mostly they are reasonable, but BMW earned their reputation here.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by tscharf

And they will continue to annoy customers if it isn't justifiable. BMW doesn't get to make the rules of what is justifiable from the * customer's perspective *. The failure of heated seats and Apple CarPlay subscriptions is not the customer's fault, it is BMW's failure to not make their case in the current market.

I can tell you very specifically I refused to buy a BMW with an Apple CarPlay subscription cost. It's the first question I asked on a recent test drive. This is my decision to make.

BMW rightfully recognized these problems, corrected them, and won back at least one customer worth about 100 years of potential CarPlay subscription revenue. It's perception, BMW actually just embedded the cost. It's like going to a high end hotel today and being charged for WiFi access.

Not all cash grabs are created equal, they need to be reasonable from the consumer perspective. Mostly they are reasonable, but BMW earned their reputation here.

I don't agree at all but it is probably because I always try and look at things from all perspectives, including "the other side", prior to making my decision/forming an opinion. How and why you make your decisions is up to you and is your right as a consumer.

[travwill]

All makers seem to be moving to this model where for any intelligence, your going to pay for it, for any connection services to a car, media consumption, add-on features where hardware is already there, etc. It is definitely annoying but hard to escape it.

[magna6882]

Mine stopped and even the dealer didn't understand. turned out i needed to re subscribe to the connected apps. I to am confused as to having features on the car when purchased only to have them disappear. makes me wonder if the radio will stop working and i will then need to subscribe to something. Seems like a whole lot of BS especially after laying out over 100 grand for a car.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

The option was on the window sticker and I paid for it. 5 years ago.

OK, let's see where it says on the window sticker that your heated seats will turn on while remote starting the vehicle for the life of the car.

My iPhone is advertised as having 5G cellular connectivity. What do you think happens if I stop paying for cellular service?

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by magna6882

Mine stopped and even the dealer didn't understand. turned out i needed to re subscribe to the connected apps. I to am confused as to having features on the car when purchased only to have them disappear. makes me wonder if the radio will stop working and i will then need to subscribe to something. Seems like a whole lot of BS especially after laying out over 100 grand for a car.

Since subscription based services are fairly new to the auto industry, I think they need to do a better job of indicating them, like maybe a boxed in section on the window sticker so people see it and talk about it before the purchase is made. Then another such highlighted document that needs to be initialed by the purchaser and explained by the sales person at the time the purchase agreement is handed over. Possibly in a decade from now this will be the norm but it appears it isn't yet. I don't think anyone would reject the car purchase just because of subscriptions, it's all in the education and acceptance pre purchase.

My Son called me a couple years ago to ask if I could figure out why he wasn't getting certain features that they were using everyday on their 2018 F15. I asked if he had signed up for the subscription once the warranty period ended and he asked me...what subscription? I was visiting my uncle this past weekend, he has a 2021 Ford 150 and he asked me what a subscription was in terms of his truck. I asked if the dealer had explained what features were subscription based and he said once again, what do you mean..subscription? I bought the truck, it has what it has, why do I need a subscription? A subscription to what?

I get it, offering software features requires ongoing work, licenses, etc and who doesn't like the ability to get updates without having to go to the dealer or just to be able to get updates and new features post purchase without having to buy a new car? Ok, well, some don't, I 'think' I'm one of them as I'm ok with my car staying as it was the day I bought it but that's not where the auto industry is going and as long as I see the value in what I have to pay for, I'll do it. I have a choice, I can subscribe or let it run out.

Example: (May be a bad example but gets the point across)

.

[tscharf]

When I test drove a lot of vehicles I always asked how long remote start would work without paying for it. The correct response rate from salespeople was about 10%. Most pretended not to even understand the question. I got many variations of "As far as I know it never ends". I had to look it up on the Internet and mostly had to find it in forums.

The tech sector is very sensitive to "software as a service" scams, basically renting software that doesn't get updated or supported. This is why every time the auto industry tries to do this the tech news sites go ballistic. Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office have successfully transitioned to this model but they had dominant positions to overcome the flack. The innovation rate of these applications dropped substantially after they transitioned. The incentives are poor.

It's well known the auto industry wants to join the recurring revenue club, they just need to come up with a better value. If, and I mean IF with a capital I F, BMW actually provided valuable and useful software updates then I would consider recurring payments. For example the changes from iDrive 8.0 to 8.5 were significant. What has happened in my experience though is the auto software development is effectively abandoned within a year of car purchase.

[SPD NXS]

Show me exactly where on anything I read online, or as part of the purchase documents, or the brochure, or the monroney, or anything that came with the car exactly where it says that. It doesn't. BMW has written me a check for 4 years of the connected app until they can figure out how to fix this issue they created. If they want to do it on new cars with full disclosure, that's up to them, and the buying public. To take it from people that have the climate rules automatic settings long after the Connected or My BMW app stopped working is another. There is nothing on the app that the car doesn't tell you every time you get in the car, except that my car is blue. Besides, Apple CarPlay doesn't go away, and it does anything you want better than the BMW app.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

Show me exactly where on anything I read online, or as part of the purchase documents, or the brochure, or the monroney, or anything that came with the car exactly where it says that. It doesn't. BMW has written me a check for 4 years of the connected app until they can figure out how to fix this issue they created. If they want to do it on new cars with full disclosure, that's up to them, and the buying public. To take it from people that have the climate rules automatic settings long after the Connected or My BMW app stopped working is another. There is nothing on the app that the car doesn't tell you every time you get in the car, except that my car is blue. Besides, Apple CarPlay doesn't go away, and it does anything you want better than the BMW app.

LOL - it was shown to you earlier. You agreed to it on the ESA. You are also wrong on the timing, Climate Rules were removed as soon as your ConnectedDrive subscription expired.

[SPD NXS]

The BMW connected app was configured and set up for me by the BMW Genius at the dealership when I took delivery, and the same for my M5.
So no, it was never disclosed to me in any way. All he ask me for was what code I wanted to use. Turtle boy, you just don't get it. If I was made aware of it at any time, and I agreed to it, okay. But, I wasn't and that's exactly why BMW USA sent me a check for $600 for a 4 year subscription "until they can figure out how to make it permanent". They did that, because they admitted it was a mistake. Do you get that finally?

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

The BMW connected app was configured and set up for me by the BMW Genius at the dealership when I took delivery, and the same for my M5.
So no, it was never disclosed to me in any way. All he ask me for was what code I wanted to use. Turtle boy, you just don't get it. If I was made aware of it at any time, and I agreed to it, okay. But, I wasn't and that's exactly why BMW USA sent me a check for $600 for a 4 year subscription "until they can figure out how to make it permanent". They did that, because they admitted it was a mistake. Do you get that finally?

No, if they did give you a check it was just to make the situation go away.

[SPD NXS]

Idiot. "That NOW require a subscription"

[rmorin1249]

Shocked that BMW sent you a check. This seems to be an admission of "guilt". I, and many others, should get a "refund".

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SPD NXS

Idiot. "That NOW require a subscription"

Looks like a check from your dealer and not BMW. Could be they didn't have you agree to the ESA prior to setting up the vehicle. I guess if you never logged onto your MyGarage account and never visited a forum, a website or anywhere else where it was discussed you can claim you didn't know and they will buy it.

Either way, a software update did not remove it as has been discussed. It always has required a subscription, that has never been in question.

[tscharf]

It might just be an issue of sales misrepresentation. I'm sure the fine print indicates what is a subscription and what is not but there is clearly confusion on the part of the customer and in my experience the salespeople don't understand it well either. The exact same situation occurred on my MB, the sales people said remote start didn't expire and it did.

For this specific service it has been changing:
https://www.bmwusa.com/content/dam/b...ngineStart.pdf

"6. Once purchased, will Remote Engine Start need to be renewed?
No, after purchase, you will hove Remote Engine Start for as long as technically capable"