An afternoon driving Swamps DCT M3

[Ken37.73]

[QUOTE=Seth_Horwitz;2737602]Tell that to Michael Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, .... (I'd list past drivers, but I don't remember exactly when F1 ditched a shifter.)

Erm, I think it might have been around the same time that F1 also became crap !!

[kuruptracing]

awesome write up! glad to hear from someone who has now driven both!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Ken37.73

"I will start off by saying the DCT makes things super easy. It was kinda nice to focus more on the feel of the car and a little less on what my feet were doing! "

God help us all !!

My 5 cents worth is that having driven 6MT, SMG and DTC that SMG and DTC are ........................................ crap. Manual for sports car drivers, auto for posers. Sorry !

Sure manual is more involving and I doubt anyone including SMG and DCT owners would disagree with that statement but your comments like this serve no purpose other than to start an argument and give other 6MT members a bad name.

Please learn to conduct yourself a little better in future.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by footie

Sure manual is more involving and I doubt anyone including SMG and DCT owners would disagree with that statement but your comments like this serve no purpose other than to start an argument and give other 6MT members a bad name.

Please learn to conduct yourself a little better in future.

You know I almost gave it to him but then decided to let it go.
I'm so glad you were so diplomatic with him cause I was very close to leashing fury on him.

[MDCTFTW]

There's nothing like pulling onto the freeway after hitting the M button and just soaring to 90mph and ripping through gears 1-7 in S5 (I'm in break in thus gear 7 at 90mph ... haha) without a hitch.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

Sure manual is more involving and I doubt anyone including SMG and DCT owners would disagree with that statement but your comments like this serve no purpose other than to start an argument and give other 6MT members a bad name.

Please learn to conduct yourself a little better in future.

If by more involving you mean needless busy work that distracts from driving the car, I would agree.

Swamp, I finally got around to measuring the shift time of SMG II at 0.2s (full power to full power). I have an ODB cable on the way so I can log RPM along with the rest of the data. My car is finally on a boat so I hope I can try to measure this soon. ETA: end of june

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by enigma

If by more involving you mean needless busy work that distracts from driving the car, I would agree.

...Hmmm, or it could uncover a lack of skill on the part of the driver. It all depends on what somebody is looking for in a vehicle (..and how much they value the interface between man and machine). Driving a manual "correctly/efficiently" requires honed skills. Some would argue that SMG/DCT does not.

[/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]

[enigma]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

...Hmmm, or it could uncover a lack of skill on the part of the driver. It all depends on what somebody is looking for in a vehicle (..and how much they value the interface between man and machine). Driving a manual "correctly/efficiently" requires honed skills. Some would argue that SMG/DCT does not.

[/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]

I value the interface greatly. Which is why I don't want the interface to contain unnecessary operations.

I find it interesting that every comment on DCT usually tries to imply that we dont know how to drive a manual. Some of us are quite good at it, perhaps to the point that we no longer see the point of being bothered with it.

Yes you will have some pousers driving DCT cars, you will also have some pousers driving 6mt cars to try to prove they are not pousers (because they have a 3rd pedal and lever).

In the end 90% of the drivers think they are in the top 10%. Its why we have motorsports to seperate the wheat from the chaff. At the end of the day, the timer doesn't lie.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by enigma

I value the interface greatly. Which is why I don't want the interface to contain unnecessary operations.

I find it interesting that every comment on DCT usually tries to imply that we dont know how to drive a manual. Some of us are quite good at it, perhaps to the point that we no longer see the point of being bothered with it.

Yes you will have some pousers driving DCT cars, you will also have some pousers driving 6mt cars to try to prove they are not pousers (because they have a 3rd pedal and lever).

In the end 90% of the drivers think they are in the top 10%. Its why we have motorsports to seperate the wheat from the chaff. At the end of the day, the timer doesn't lie.

Noted & appreciated!

[footie]

I would like to open a thread for each transmission letting the potential buyers hear experienced opinion on each system from the actual owners of the cars. The reason for this is the excessive cost in owning one of these cars and the excessive cost of M-DCT, the most expensive option on the list, it's don't the kind on decision you want to get wrong and in most cases if you chose wrongly you're stuck for the best part of 3 years minimum.

These two threads M-DCT and 6MT will obviously have to be kept separate for the very reasons we are seeing here.

These two threads have been opening on the Engines/Transmissions section of the site and everyone from Club M-DCT and welcome to give their impressions of ownership with DCT in the 'Ultimate guide to M-DCT' thread and likewise for the members of Club 6MT in the 'Ultimate guide to 6MT' thread.

If possible can the powers at be make both thread sticky and the only comments available to the members of the respective groups.

Footie

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I can't tell a thing about where you are from in your avatar area. The option for a ride (and drive depending on if I think you are a yahoo based on your posts) is open to regular forum members and until dealers begin letting folks test drive M-DCT.

That puts me under time pressure.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

southlight, you keeping score on whose starting what still?

Not keeping score exactly, but I see what you mean. That's so incredibly annoying.

oh and btw, notice _6_

Best regads, south

[Nate@IND]

Nice write up and props to Swamps

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by enigma

I value the interface greatly. Which is why I don't want the interface to contain unnecessary operations.

I find it interesting that every comment on DCT usually tries to imply that we dont know how to drive a manual. Some of us are quite good at it, perhaps to the point that we no longer see the point of being bothered with it.

Yes you will have some pousers driving DCT cars, you will also have some pousers driving 6mt cars to try to prove they are not pousers (because they have a 3rd pedal and lever).

In the end 90% of the drivers think they are in the top 10%. Its why we have motorsports to seperate the wheat from the chaff. At the end of the day, the timer doesn't lie.

I find the "6MTFTW" crowd mildly amusing. I'm sure they are bright and all, I mean, it's 2008 and they still want to feel connected to the car. In which case they should drive Ford Model Ts and hand crank start it if they really wanted to feel "connected".

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by ihyln

I find the "6MTFTW" crowd mildly amusing. I'm sure they are bright and all, I mean, it's 2008 and they still want to feel connected to the car. In which case they should drive Ford Model Ts and hand crank start it if they really wanted to feel "connected".

Your point is in the extreme but you bring up a good point.

I remember when my dad used to talk about cruise control was for the lazy. Of course times and paradigms have shifted.

We live in a time where automated trannies are now faster and the better performance option...

Great handling doesnt mean a harsh ride and lots of HP doesnt mean you have to give up on civility....

Jason

[NavNurs]

Thanks Jason, now I wonder if I made the best decision on the tranny!!!

Seriously, wish I could have been there. Hopefully sometime in June when you join the owners circle we can tear up the streets. What are the chances three Ms can go out and not come back with tickets?

[enigma]

Originally Posted by NavNurs

What are the chances three Ms can go out and not come back with tickets?

High...

Though it would be tempting to organize a day at Laguna Seca. That way you can actually push it as fast as you dare.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by NavNurs

Thanks Jason, now I wonder if I made the best decision on the tranny!!!

Seriously, wish I could have been there. Hopefully sometime in June when you join the owners circle we can tear up the streets. What are the chances three Ms can go out and not come back with tickets?

Hahaha, seriously, the 6MT was great and I really enjoyed driving your car.

Yeah, I am really looking forward to a mini meet sometime next month!

Jason

[Jack28]

Good Write up JEllis... The Most important thing for me is how fast it shifts in S5/S6 on WOT!
I desperatly want to know if the Tires will trip inbetween gears in WOT in S5/S6 just like power shifting and trippin the tires in a 6MT....
I gave my SP my Final Order for my E92 M3 and its with 6MT(but the order is not placed) cuz I want DCT so I will drive it first when one gets to my dealer then if all is well change it to DCT then put in the Final order! If all is well as your review, I should go for DCT and this will be my first M3 without a clutch pedal!

Thanks again for the review!

-Jack

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Jack28

Good Write up JEllis... The Most important thing for me is how fast it shifts in S5/S6 on WOT!
I desperatly want to know if the Tires will trip inbetween gears in WOT in S5/S6 just like power shifting and trippin the tires in a 6MT....

Shifts are always fast, they are slightly faster when the TCU (not an official BMW term but loosely the "transmission control unit") properly guesses the next gear but only from the delay perspective, not the shifts themselves. There is just a slight delay when it doesn't (can't) guess correctly. For example at low throttle, with no acceleration nor braking and in a high gear (not 7th) there are very little clues for the TCU to properly guess the next gear. If you nail the throttle it perfectly pre-selects a lower gear, closer to redline it pre-selects the higher gear. Under these conditions the delay is almost imperceptible. Again, much like most of my minute "criticisms" of M-DCT I have noticed this but 95% of folks won't it is very minor and you have to pay close attention to the initiation of the tach movement compared to the completion of the lever or paddle click. Now with this small diversion on the speed of shifts on to the much more fun part of your question...

1-2 chirps pretty good at high throttle in S5 and S6, when shifting near redline, LC or not. I too would really like to know how many gears will chirp using S6&LC with MDM off (automatically shifting right at redline under WOT). The M6 with SMG III chirps just a tiny bit into 5th, but clearly the M3 won't with 90 or so less ponies! It is beyond illegal to test this on the street hence I have not done it, nor do I have it on video. Hopefully soon.

Some more experience with rev matching ("blips") on downshifts:

Almost no throttle blips occur in S1-S3 at low to intermediate throttle. I have not checked it at very high throttle but I think the results will be the same. The lower modes S1 and S2 purposefully delay, smooth and "slur" the downshifts a bit. These are the only conditions and modes under which shifts are slower than incredibly fast. They are still fast and very smooth but produce no blip and they take just a hair longer. As well you feel a bit more compression braking during the clutch swap. In S4-S6 the intensity of the blip and propensity for it to happen at lower and lower rpm smoothly increases through the modes. S4 is about perfect for slightly aggressive driving. Nice blips, still super smooth, definitely easy on the syncros and the nice aural pleasure as well. My initial impression is that the S5 and S6 blips may be too large and less smooth for mild to moderate driving. Much like other aspects of the tranny though the faster you go and the harder you push it the better it gets. So I very well expect S5 and S6 to be great for very aggressive driving and track work. My comrade footie would surely conclude that any roughness in the blips means they are positively too large and too aggressive and are present only for the aural effect (or some other false feeling of speed, poseur effect, etc.). As well I'm sure he would say there is absolutely no need for these modes to even be present. Even if this were true, which I highly doubt, it may be worth it solely for the sounds as they are truly heavenly.

With my past comments about the differences between the up and downshifts in the D (auto) modes and the wealth of comments about the surge, I feel I finally really know the tranny for most conditions except the very aggressive and track type work which I really hope to get to soon.

As I always say M-DCT gets a 9.5/10. Most will never notice the tiny, almost insignificant "criticisms" I have found in the unit. Like the rest of the car the more you push the better it gets.

M-DCT FTW!

P.S. Sorry to thread jack (just a bit) but Jasons post quickly went down the M-DCT route.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

My comrade footie would surely conclude that any roughness in the blips means they are positively too large and too aggressive and are present only for the aural effect (or some other false feeling of speed, poseur effect, etc.). As well I'm sure he would say there is absolutely no need for these modes to even be present. Even if this were true, which I highly doubt, it may be worth it solely for the sounds as they are truly heavenly.

I am not going into a war of words to say why it's there or if it serves any real benefit or not, we have went down that route before with not real common ground and no final outcome.

You comments at the end are all that really matter in my opinion, 'Even if this were true, which I highly doubt, it may be worth it solely for the sounds as they are truly heavenly', you clearly enjoy what these modes bring to the experience, other may think is distract from it and like I said and keep saying the fact BMW provided the option to dial it out means the transmission will appeal to more than just the die-hard SMG owners out there.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Some more experience with rev matching ("blips") on downshifts:

...

As I always say M-DCT gets a 9.5/10. Most will never notice the tiny, almost insignificant "criticisms" I have found in the unit. Like the rest of the car the more you push the better it gets.

swamp, I really appreciate your continued writeups on different aspects of M-DCT. I am really becoming convinced, not that I needed it much since I've been leaning toward M-DCT from the beginning. If I do go with M-DCT it sounds like I will be in S5 or S6 almost all the time as I absolutely love rev matched downshifts. Like you said, its worth it for the sound if for nothing else.

Questions for you: Will MDrive let you set S6 to the M Button? And if so, does it also require you set DSC off to the M Button in tandem?

[footie]

Was just informed today that the dealer is due to receive their E93 M3 within the next couple of weeks (all been well) and I am first on the list to drive it, it's a dealer use car so it a full demo so hopefully I will get it for the afternoon to get a proper feel for the thing. This is great news for me as I will actually get the chance to drive it ahead of the final speccing of the car, though I have to go down this route anyway but it's still nice to get to try before you buy sort of thing.

Some of you might want to hear what I have to say about M-DCT, some might not. The interesting thing for guys like swamp and some others is my experience with DSG and my preference towards the smoother shifting of this style of dual clutch transmission. You have my word that I will be as objective and honest as humanly possible and will be able to sample everything up to S5 as S6 only becomes available after the 1200mile service.

On another note while there I got to see the X6 ahead of it's official UK dealer launch, this thing looks miles better in the fresh than any photo shot I have seen to date, surprisingly build quality looks better than the X5 sitting beside it, this might be a perception thing or not but the X6 looks the more luxurious of the two.

Getting in the rear is a little tight and you really have to watch you head both getting in and out. The car was finished in Oyster Nevada leather and Metallic Black with 20" five spokes, will forward photos (not great quality) when I get home night.

If I wanted a offroad type car without necessarily needing mountains of room then this would be right up at the top of my stopping list, the thing is beautiful.