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      10-20-2020, 06:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
It is correct. GEICO is one of the few insurance companies in the US that will not offer an insurance discount for subscription based tracking. It is the very first question they ask if you mention you have it.
I'm referring to situations where an Insurer demands a system be fitted as a condition of cover.
Voluntarily fitting a system to pursue a discount is a little different.
That said, if that's what Geico are doing, fair enough, but it makes little sense. It's an easy 'out' for them if a claim is submitted but the tracker's service had been allowed to lapse.
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      10-20-2020, 06:43 PM   #24
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My apologies, I misunderstood or think we are discussing two different topics. As stated earlier I am simply referring to subscription based tracking for discount not for coverage alone. I insure many cars at a time and I am familiar with most of the major carriers along with their discounts. I do everything by the book and prefer to be over-insured rather than receive a discount and be under-insured or risk not being covered at all for a technicality.
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      10-21-2020, 01:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
They all have subscription either monthly or about £299 for 2 years or £399 for 3 years or Maybee 4.
If you're doing this for an insurance discount then any device with a monthly subscription will not give you a discount. Insurance companies will not discount because the service could be cancelled after discount provided. It has to be a LoJack style that is a one time sunk-cost and operates for the lifetime of the device/vehicle.
This is simply incorrect. I run a GPS tracking company and have extensive experience in providing assorted Insurance Telematics products to motor insurers around the World. I have yet to come across a risk carrier that specifically excludes subscription-based solutions.
Any quality solution is going to have an overhead whether in Airtime, Servers or Support and a 'lifetime' service is going to come with either a huge upfront cost and/or caveats that service dies with ownership change or some other model to avoid the liability of supporting a tracker sold, say, 10yrs ago.
An insurer could use the failure of the Insured to maintain a service as grounds to repudiate a claim ...so being unable to locate a stolen vehicle as you stopped paying the service provider pits the loss back on the client. That's a win for the insurer. So, there's no justification for an Insurer taking the approach you suggest.
Thanks for the post.

Can you recommend a good tracker?
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      10-21-2020, 01:50 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
My apologies, I misunderstood or think we are discussing two different topics. As stated earlier I am simply referring to subscription based tracking for discount not for coverage alone. I insure many cars at a time and I am familiar with most of the major carriers along with their discounts. I do everything by the book and prefer to be over-insured rather than receive a discount and be under-insured or risk not being covered at all for a technicality.
My 2020 X7 came with this certificate. I did not pay extra for this. It lists all the pertinent information such as VIN and my name, address and phone number.
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      10-21-2020, 02:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
I believe some insurance companies in the UK want a Tracker fitted to monitor driver behaviour rather than for vehicle recovery although i suppose it can support both. Ive heard of people with these SPY BOX fitted who have had their premiums increased mid term because they have exceeded the speed limit!!!
Be careful what you agree to.
Id find another insurer who doesnt require a tracker.
A driver behaviour tracker is a different device to something like Trackstar which is used for theft-tracking - if an insurance company wants a tracker for the former purpose, it will explicitly say it is to monitor behaviour.

Also the time-out key movement is not 10 minutes, I can't recall exactly but it's around 2 minutes.
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      10-21-2020, 04:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by mitch57 View Post
My 2020 X7 came with this certificate. I did not pay extra for this. It lists all the pertinent information such as VIN and my name, address and phone number.
Bingo. Exactly what I am referring to. BMW offers theft recovery services and this is generally eligible with most carriers for a discount but YMMV. No need for extra devices or subscription services as mentioned in my initial post. Thank you for posting the certificate.
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      10-21-2020, 05:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
One thing is for certain. The G05 can not be stolen without the key. The only exemption to this is dragging it on a trailer with the alarm going. They are very difficult vehicles to steal.
High-value cars like the X5 tend to be stolen to order, and because of the value of the car the thieves can afford to spend some effort on the theft. One of the common methods is to break into the house and steal the car key (since they cannot clone the key easily now), drive the car as short a distance as possible and put it into a faraday cage (ie shipping container), then export the car. They will likely have all the knowledge and kit needed to disable/reprogram the car's GSM transmitter, which the 'buyer' won't want to use. Incidentally, the thieves often use a 'sacrificial' child to do the key stealing, so it is of little consequence to the gang if the child is caught, and the child won't get much of a punishment anyway.

So, I see it as important that theft of my car is detected 'automatically' asap, rather than depend on me realising that the car is gone, as there is only a short window to recover the car.

In the UK at least, with a Thatcham S5 or better tracker the police will act on information from the tracker monitoring company and not wait for a formal report from the car's owner. Important if you are not immediately contactable, for example asleep with your phone on mute/ do-not-disturb.
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      10-21-2020, 05:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnborg Braga View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
One thing is for certain. The G05 can not be stolen without the key. The only exemption to this is dragging it on a trailer with the alarm going. They are very difficult vehicles to steal.
High-value cars like the X5 tend to be stolen to order, and because of the value of the car the thieves can afford to spend some effort on the theft. One of the common methods is to break into the house and steal the car key (since they cannot clone the key easily now), drive the car as short a distance as possible and put it into a faraday cage (ie shipping container), then export the car. They will likely have all the knowledge and kit needed to disable/reprogram the car's GSM transmitter, which the 'buyer' won't want to use. Incidentally, the thieves often use a 'sacrificial' child to do the key stealing, so it is of little consequence to the gang if the child is caught, and the child won't get much of a punishment anyway.

So, I see it as important that theft of my car is detected 'automatically' asap, rather than depend on me realising that the car is gone, as there is only a short window to recover the car.

In the UK at least, with a Thatcham S5 or better tracker the police will act on information from the tracker monitoring company and not wait for a formal report from the car's owner. Important if you are not immediately contactable, for example asleep with your phone on mute/ do-not-disturb.
Excellent post!
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      10-21-2020, 05:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by sahajesh View Post
Excellent post!
Only if you want the car back of course
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      10-21-2020, 05:50 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by sahajesh View Post
Excellent post!
Only if you want the car back of course
If it has just been driven and not physically damaged, then why not?

They likely won't have smashed a window to get in (even then, shit happens, get it replaced). Yeah they will probably have revved it but then most of us will have ragged our car at some point, it's not like they are driving it across the entirety of Europe at inappropriate speeds and engine revs.

Lots of people say "I don't want it back" - look at the state of the car first and then decide.
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      10-21-2020, 09:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by sahajesh View Post
If it has just been driven and not physically damaged, then why not?

They likely won't have smashed a window to get in (even then, shit happens, get it replaced). Yeah they will probably have revved it but then most of us will have ragged our car at some point, it's not like they are driving it across the entirety of Europe at inappropriate speeds and engine revs.

Lots of people say "I don't want it back" - look at the state of the car first and then decide.
Yeah I get what your saying but having been a victim of theft, they can keep it.
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      10-23-2020, 07:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
They all have subscription either monthly or about £299 for 2 years or £399 for 3 years or Maybee 4.
If you're doing this for an insurance discount then any device with a monthly subscription will not give you a discount. Insurance companies will not discount because the service could be cancelled after discount provided. It has to be a LoJack style that is a one time sunk-cost and operates for the lifetime of the device/vehicle.
This is simply incorrect. I run a GPS tracking company and have extensive experience in providing assorted Insurance Telematics products to motor insurers around the World. I have yet to come across a risk carrier that specifically excludes subscription-based solutions.
Any quality solution is going to have an overhead whether in Airtime, Servers or Support and a 'lifetime' service is going to come with either a huge upfront cost and/or caveats that service dies with ownership change or some other model to avoid the liability of supporting a tracker sold, say, 10yrs ago.
An insurer could use the failure of the Insured to maintain a service as grounds to repudiate a claim ...so being unable to locate a stolen vehicle as you stopped paying the service provider pits the loss back on the client. That's a win for the insurer. So, there's no justification for an Insurer taking the approach you suggest.
Thanks for the post.

Can you recommend a good tracker?
I'm not going to flog our own solutions here ...never good to do business with friends!

A lot of folk mentioning Thatcham systems here. In the UK, some risk carriers (I use that term to distinguish from brokers) insist on 'Thatcham' approved , Sold Secure or ACPO preferred systems.

At the end of the day, the underlying technology from most suppliers is:

GPS Receiver
GSM Transmitter
3-wire install (Mains, Ignition, Ground)

Most systems have remote disable or retardation (rapid fuel pimp pulsing) as optional switches (I/O) to allow the vehicle to be gradually halted. Interfacing this with your vehicle involves tapping critical wires. Good luck mansplaining to BMW how your stalled G05 has nothing to do with your third-party tracker and everything to do with their dodgy design!

My point is that, electing to do really invasive installations risks your electrical warrantee and should be avoided.

The other piece is this: Installation is crucial. If I think your vehicle is tracked with a wired system... I'll find it.

So, if you really want your vehicle back and you want proactive recovery by all means select a system with the RFID fob and ensure it's not attached to your set of keys. Add the monitoring service.

However, I would then add an AT -self powered asset tracker. This is an entirely self-contained device that can be placed in a myriad of truly obscure locations and my guess would only be marginally better than yours as to where to look for it.

The ideal device would have a 3+yr batt life + non-GSM comms (defeats the GSM jammer), WiFi reverse lookup (defeats GPS jammer) + RF beacon (enables so-called 'last mile logistics' where position is ballpark but not super precise.

Your thief will find a telltale wire for the Thatcham device, follow it back to the main kit -pull it out and drive off with a false sense of security while your AT bangs out positions for you to relay to PoPo.

***
Opinion:
For those of you who take the attitude, 'If it's stolen I don't want it back...': If your insurer gets nailed for a €100k for your stolen motor... you're going to pay dearly in premiums for the years after. Prevention is better than cure.
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Note: Taxes on vehicles in Ireland are bananas!
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      10-24-2020, 01:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
They all have subscription either monthly or about £299 for 2 years or £399 for 3 years or Maybee 4.
If you're doing this for an insurance discount then any device with a monthly subscription will not give you a discount. Insurance companies will not discount because the service could be cancelled after discount provided. It has to be a LoJack style that is a one time sunk-cost and operates for the lifetime of the device/vehicle.
This is simply incorrect. I run a GPS tracking company and have extensive experience in providing assorted Insurance Telematics products to motor insurers around the World. I have yet to come across a risk carrier that specifically excludes subscription-based solutions.
Any quality solution is going to have an overhead whether in Airtime, Servers or Support and a 'lifetime' service is going to come with either a huge upfront cost and/or caveats that service dies with ownership change or some other model to avoid the liability of supporting a tracker sold, say, 10yrs ago.
An insurer could use the failure of the Insured to maintain a service as grounds to repudiate a claim ...so being unable to locate a stolen vehicle as you stopped paying the service provider pits the loss back on the client. That's a win for the insurer. So, there's no justification for an Insurer taking the approach you suggest.
Thanks for the post.

Can you recommend a good tracker?
I'm not going to flog our own solutions here ...never good to do business with friends!

A lot of folk mentioning Thatcham systems here. In the UK, some risk carriers (I use that term to distinguish from brokers) insist on 'Thatcham' approved , Sold Secure or ACPO preferred systems.

At the end of the day, the underlying technology from most suppliers is:

GPS Receiver
GSM Transmitter
3-wire install (Mains, Ignition, Ground)

Most systems have remote disable or retardation (rapid fuel pimp pulsing) as optional switches (I/O) to allow the vehicle to be gradually halted. Interfacing this with your vehicle involves tapping critical wires. Good luck mansplaining to BMW how your stalled G05 has nothing to do with your third-party tracker and everything to do with their dodgy design!

My point is that, electing to do really invasive installations risks your electrical warrantee and should be avoided.

The other piece is this: Installation is crucial. If I think your vehicle is tracked with a wired system... I'll find it.

So, if you really want your vehicle back and you want proactive recovery by all means select a system with the RFID fob and ensure it's not attached to your set of keys. Add the monitoring service.

However, I would then add an AT -self powered asset tracker. This is an entirely self-contained device that can be placed in a myriad of truly obscure locations and my guess would only be marginally better than yours as to where to look for it.

The ideal device would have a 3+yr batt life + non-GSM comms (defeats the GSM jammer), WiFi reverse lookup (defeats GPS jammer) + RF beacon (enables so-called 'last mile logistics' where position is ballpark but not super precise.

Your thief will find a telltale wire for the Thatcham device, follow it back to the main kit -pull it out and drive off with a false sense of security while your AT bangs out positions for you to relay to PoPo.

***
Opinion:
For those of you who take the attitude, 'If it's stolen I don't want it back...': If your insurer gets nailed for a €100k for your stolen motor... you're going to pay dearly in premiums for the years after. Prevention is better than cure.
Thanks for the detailed reply - much appreciated.

I have been recommended the scorpion s7 tracker https://www.infinititracking.co.uk/p...ntrack-s7-als/

Thoughts?
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      10-24-2020, 03:51 AM   #36
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I'm with LV and have a dealer fitted tracker.
They just wanted to know it had one and what type. (Trackstar).

They have no access to any tracking.
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      10-24-2020, 05:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanC84 View Post
I'm with LV and have a dealer fitted tracker.
They just wanted to know it had one and what type. (Trackstar).

They have no access to any tracking.
Hi Bryan

I'm with LV too.

What subscription have you got for trackstar?

I'm worried about battery consumption too as I am getting a 45e.
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      10-24-2020, 02:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Hi Bryan

I'm with LV too.

What subscription have you got for trackstar?

I'm worried about battery consumption too as I am getting a 45e.
Just the standard trackstar offered by the dealership.
I have a 45e too. Its not connected to the high voltage battery.

Had a tracker on my previous f15 30d too and it never noticed any change in voltage
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      10-24-2020, 03:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanC84 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Hi Bryan

I'm with LV too.

What subscription have you got for trackstar?

I'm worried about battery consumption too as I am getting a 45e.
Just the standard trackstar offered by the dealership.
I have a 45e too. Its not connected to the high voltage battery.

Had a tracker on my previous f15 30d too and it never noticed any change in voltage
Ah brilliant.

Thanks for that information.
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      10-26-2020, 07:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
They all have subscription either monthly or about £299 for 2 years or £399 for 3 years or Maybee 4.
If you're doing this for an insurance discount then any device with a monthly subscription will not give you a discount. Insurance companies will not discount because the service could be cancelled after discount provided. It has to be a LoJack style that is a one time sunk-cost and operates for the lifetime of the device/vehicle.
This is simply incorrect. I run a GPS tracking company and have extensive experience in providing assorted Insurance Telematics products to motor insurers around the World. I have yet to come across a risk carrier that specifically excludes subscription-based solutions.
Any quality solution is going to have an overhead whether in Airtime, Servers or Support and a 'lifetime' service is going to come with either a huge upfront cost and/or caveats that service dies with ownership change or some other model to avoid the liability of supporting a tracker sold, say, 10yrs ago.
An insurer could use the failure of the Insured to maintain a service as grounds to repudiate a claim ...so being unable to locate a stolen vehicle as you stopped paying the service provider pits the loss back on the client. That's a win for the insurer. So, there's no justification for an Insurer taking the approach you suggest.
Thanks for the post.

Can you recommend a good tracker?
I'm not going to flog our own solutions here ...never good to do business with friends!

A lot of folk mentioning Thatcham systems here. In the UK, some risk carriers (I use that term to distinguish from brokers) insist on 'Thatcham' approved , Sold Secure or ACPO preferred systems.

At the end of the day, the underlying technology from most suppliers is:

GPS Receiver
GSM Transmitter
3-wire install (Mains, Ignition, Ground)

Most systems have remote disable or retardation (rapid fuel pimp pulsing) as optional switches (I/O) to allow the vehicle to be gradually halted. Interfacing this with your vehicle involves tapping critical wires. Good luck mansplaining to BMW how your stalled G05 has nothing to do with your third-party tracker and everything to do with their dodgy design!

My point is that, electing to do really invasive installations risks your electrical warrantee and should be avoided.

The other piece is this: Installation is crucial. If I think your vehicle is tracked with a wired system... I'll find it.

So, if you really want your vehicle back and you want proactive recovery by all means select a system with the RFID fob and ensure it's not attached to your set of keys. Add the monitoring service.

However, I would then add an AT -self powered asset tracker. This is an entirely self-contained device that can be placed in a myriad of truly obscure locations and my guess would only be marginally better than yours as to where to look for it.

The ideal device would have a 3+yr batt life + non-GSM comms (defeats the GSM jammer), WiFi reverse lookup (defeats GPS jammer) + RF beacon (enables so-called 'last mile logistics' where position is ballpark but not super precise.

Your thief will find a telltale wire for the Thatcham device, follow it back to the main kit -pull it out and drive off with a false sense of security while your AT bangs out positions for you to relay to PoPo.

***
Opinion:
For those of you who take the attitude, 'If it's stolen I don't want it back...': If your insurer gets nailed for a €100k for your stolen motor... you're going to pay dearly in premiums for the years after. Prevention is better than cure.
Thanks for the detailed reply - much appreciated.

I have been recommended the scorpion s7 tracker https://www.infinititracking.co.uk/p...ntrack-s7-als/

Thoughts?
The cost including fitting is good value for a consumer offering. The subscription is about right too.
However, have you looked at the actual requirement of your insurer?
Have they specifically demanded a tracker of a given type or standard or just demanded a, "Tracker"?
If the latter, I'd go totally wireless and avoid a fitter tapping wires in your car.
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Currently driving 2016 F10 M5 & 2017 G11 730d.
Note: Taxes on vehicles in Ireland are bananas!
Previously
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      10-27-2020, 03:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkiokbye View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUPremier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro55 View Post
They all have subscription either monthly or about £299 for 2 years or £399 for 3 years or Maybee 4.
If you're doing this for an insurance discount then any device with a monthly subscription will not give you a discount. Insurance companies will not discount because the service could be cancelled after discount provided. It has to be a LoJack style that is a one time sunk-cost and operates for the lifetime of the device/vehicle.
This is simply incorrect. I run a GPS tracking company and have extensive experience in providing assorted Insurance Telematics products to motor insurers around the World. I have yet to come across a risk carrier that specifically excludes subscription-based solutions.
Any quality solution is going to have an overhead whether in Airtime, Servers or Support and a 'lifetime' service is going to come with either a huge upfront cost and/or caveats that service dies with ownership change or some other model to avoid the liability of supporting a tracker sold, say, 10yrs ago.
An insurer could use the failure of the Insured to maintain a service as grounds to repudiate a claim ...so being unable to locate a stolen vehicle as you stopped paying the service provider pits the loss back on the client. That's a win for the insurer. So, there's no justification for an Insurer taking the approach you suggest.
Thanks for the post.

Can you recommend a good tracker?
I'm not going to flog our own solutions here ...never good to do business with friends!

A lot of folk mentioning Thatcham systems here. In the UK, some risk carriers (I use that term to distinguish from brokers) insist on 'Thatcham' approved , Sold Secure or ACPO preferred systems.

At the end of the day, the underlying technology from most suppliers is:

GPS Receiver
GSM Transmitter
3-wire install (Mains, Ignition, Ground)

Most systems have remote disable or retardation (rapid fuel pimp pulsing) as optional switches (I/O) to allow the vehicle to be gradually halted. Interfacing this with your vehicle involves tapping critical wires. Good luck mansplaining to BMW how your stalled G05 has nothing to do with your third-party tracker and everything to do with their dodgy design!

My point is that, electing to do really invasive installations risks your electrical warrantee and should be avoided.

The other piece is this: Installation is crucial. If I think your vehicle is tracked with a wired system... I'll find it.

So, if you really want your vehicle back and you want proactive recovery by all means select a system with the RFID fob and ensure it's not attached to your set of keys. Add the monitoring service.

However, I would then add an AT -self powered asset tracker. This is an entirely self-contained device that can be placed in a myriad of truly obscure locations and my guess would only be marginally better than yours as to where to look for it.

The ideal device would have a 3+yr batt life + non-GSM comms (defeats the GSM jammer), WiFi reverse lookup (defeats GPS jammer) + RF beacon (enables so-called 'last mile logistics' where position is ballpark but not super precise.

Your thief will find a telltale wire for the Thatcham device, follow it back to the main kit -pull it out and drive off with a false sense of security while your AT bangs out positions for you to relay to PoPo.

***
Opinion:
For those of you who take the attitude, 'If it's stolen I don't want it back...': If your insurer gets nailed for a €100k for your stolen motor... you're going to pay dearly in premiums for the years after. Prevention is better than cure.
Thanks for the detailed reply - much appreciated.

I have been recommended the scorpion s7 tracker https://www.infinititracking.co.uk/p...ntrack-s7-als/

Thoughts?
The cost including fitting is good value for a consumer offering. The subscription is about right too.
However, have you looked at the actual requirement of your insurer?
Have they specifically demanded a tracker of a given type or standard or just demanded a, "Tracker"?
If the latter, I'd go totally wireless and avoid a fitter tapping wires in your car.
Hi

The insurer has not specified. I have called them twice about this. They have only stipulated that the car is traceable if stolen. The issue I have with a non wired battery solution is the battery life. What if the car gets stolen the tracker battery dies?!

Then not insured.

So likely will go with wired solution.

Checked with Bmw and they said warranty is not affected if a wired system is fitted even by third party.
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      04-21-2021, 06:16 PM   #42
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Hi there. Just wanted to follow up tracker discussion. So I'm also with the LV and they've asked about the tracker. So first I've mentioned about connected drive. Their operator asked about the tracker that allows you to detect position of parked vehicle (I thought that moving car location is needed) so connected drive should be fine.
However today after getting a car and amending my insurance another agent asked about tracker that notifies you when car is being stolen (for example being taken away from your predefined location)

This is very confusing. As mentioned in the posts above I don't want anybody to messing up with electronic or my X5 and I hope Connected drive should be efficient.

Apparently at the dealership sales man said connected drive is not being recognised as a tracker but in the event of theft it is a first thing that police ask you.
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      04-22-2021, 02:32 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medialook View Post
Hi there. Just wanted to follow up tracker discussion. So I'm also with the LV and they've asked about the tracker. So first I've mentioned about connected drive. Their operator asked about the tracker that allows you to detect position of parked vehicle (I thought that moving car location is needed) so connected drive should be fine.
However today after getting a car and amending my insurance another agent asked about tracker that notifies you when car is being stolen (for example being taken away from your predefined location)

This is very confusing. As mentioned in the posts above I don't want anybody to messing up with electronic or my X5 and I hope Connected drive should be efficient.

Apparently at the dealership sales man said connected drive is not being recognised as a tracker but in the event of theft it is a first thing that police ask you.
Hi

I got a tracker fitted in the end.

It is https://www.trackerfit.co.uk the smart track pro tracker

Very happy with it !
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      04-23-2021, 10:48 AM   #44
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I’m always amazed reading threads like this that highlight the different issues that are dependent on your location on this big world.

Looks like Luxury Car theft is a major industry in the UK while my experience in the US is vastly different. I see smash and grab, petty theft from unlocked vehicles or the occasional carjacking on the news here.
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