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      10-27-2020, 03:19 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyhank82 View Post
Ample communication also goes a long way and does not cost a penny and clearly the European customers are not being informed quickly and frequently hence all the frustration on this thread...
Due to the lack of that ample communication on BMW's side we're pulling the plug on a 45e order - just too much risk* for us.


(*For us it only makes financial sense to buy and collect the FTC, however given the 2 battery related recalls already it doesn't bode well for the model as a whole. I'm sure BMW will do things to compensate people *per incident* but the incidents are piling up and should the 45e get a reputation as a lemon line, just not something we're willing to deal with, i.e., luxury should be simple and carefree and 45e isn't for us)
very sensible decision. Im surprised others aren't doing the same rational thing and 'walking into it' despite the warning signs.
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      10-27-2020, 04:44 AM   #486
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Just had an update from my dealer in Belgium. In fairness to him, he is always really helpful and communicates with me everything he knows.
I think the communication problem is, that he, along with the other dealers are a little bit left in the dark in this whole situation.

So in summary;
The process of testing starts in ZeeBrugge from Nov 4th.
Everything for the moment seems on track and he expects once they get started it will move pretty quick, of course depending where you are in the queue.
I don't think we can expect any cars being released before 2nd week Nov.

They are installing charging poles in ZeeBrugge at the moment for the testing, hence the delay.

He told me we will know a lot more next week once everything gets started.
My car is still at the dealers, which I understand. Expected to be picked up sometime next week. No point I guess in it standing in ZeeBrugge.

The new deliveries of the 45e from now on are a different production batch therefore have no problems! People are collecting their new 45e's all this week!!! annoying!

Also I asked him what would happen if the delay gets closer till 2021 for the tax implications. He told me once you have a signed contract before 1st Oct 20' the new tax rules do not apply.
I also asked about the warranty on the battery and particularly a warranty related to this fault, and he told me there is a 6 year battery warranty standard.

Finally I asked him about the official communication from BMW, he told me BMW are only contacting the people who have already have their car delivered and are driving on restricted modes. I can imagine they need to do this for liability reasons. (he also seemed to think there will be a fuel compensation for these customers) - going to follow this up a later date!

So I guess we need to wait out another week and we will then have some more concrete information.

At least this is what I have been told!!
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      10-27-2020, 05:50 AM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieb27 View Post
To be honest I was thinking the same myself!

Has anyone in Europe received any official communication from BMW or their dealer?

Each time I have asked questions via mail, I receive a phone call back.
I published the official communication I received from BMW Belux a little earlier in this thread. I sent a letter to their sales manager to get such reaction since I had the same experience as you when sending emails. Nothing new or specific. Just a minimal effort with no clear deadlines. They still have no clue today I guess. If I don’t get clear deadlines within the next 2 weeks + an official delivery date before mid-December, I’ll cancel my order and will purchase a stock car from Audi...
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      10-27-2020, 06:17 AM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieb27 View Post
Also I asked him what would happen if the delay gets closer till 2021 for the tax implications. He told me once you have a signed contract before 1st Oct 20' the new tax rules do not apply.
Which are those new taxes rules?

For WLTP the 45e scores even better than for NEDC. So it shouldn't be a problem.
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      10-27-2020, 06:52 AM   #489
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You have to also make sure you have the new BMW price with the changes to tax, our Tax system in Ireland is changing heavily for 2021, normally from the current data i.e. the e45 WLTP bieng lower that then 2020 CO2 emission, the price should drop, but my dealer stressed how we also need to check if the price is to stay the same, more likely if you saving taxes, BMW will look into getting a share of it.


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Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Which are those new taxes rules?

For WLTP the 45e scores even better than for NEDC. So it shouldn't be a problem.
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      10-27-2020, 06:59 AM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexG05be View Post
I published the official communication I received from BMW Belux a little earlier in this thread. I sent a letter to their sales manager to get such reaction since I had the same experience as you when sending emails. Nothing new or specific. Just a minimal effort with no clear deadlines. They still have no clue today I guess. If I don’t get clear deadlines within the next 2 weeks + an official delivery date before mid-December, I’ll cancel my order and will purchase a stock car from Audi...
I fully agree with anyone cancelling their orders. Since I don't trust the test (no validity, it is only lab condition!!!), I told my dealer that wont accept anything but the replacement of the battery. If BMW does not comply, I will leave the car at the dealer and order a new 40d. That's it.
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      10-27-2020, 07:14 AM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyrouge View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexG05be View Post
I published the official communication I received from BMW Belux a little earlier in this thread. I sent a letter to their sales manager to get such reaction since I had the same experience as you when sending emails. Nothing new or specific. Just a minimal effort with no clear deadlines. They still have no clue today I guess. If I don’t get clear deadlines within the next 2 weeks + an official delivery date before mid-December, I’ll cancel my order and will purchase a stock car from Audi...
I fully agree with anyone cancelling their orders. Since I don't trust the test (no validity, it is only lab condition!!!), I told my dealer that wont accept anything but the replacement of the battery. If BMW does not comply, I will leave the car at the dealer and order a new 40d. That's it.
The 40d is a mild hybrid and I think those are also part of the recall.
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      10-27-2020, 07:40 AM   #492
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Only PHEVs are affected.
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      10-27-2020, 08:04 AM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieb27 View Post
Just had an update from my dealer in Belgium. In fairness to him, he is always really helpful and communicates with me everything he knows.
I think the communication problem is, that he, along with the other dealers are a little bit left in the dark in this whole situation.

So in summary;
The process of testing starts in ZeeBrugge from Nov 4th.
Everything for the moment seems on track and he expects once they get started it will move pretty quick, of course depending where you are in the queue.
I don't think we can expect any cars being released before 2nd week Nov.

They are installing charging poles in ZeeBrugge at the moment for the testing, hence the delay.

He told me we will know a lot more next week once everything gets started.
My car is still at the dealers, which I understand. Expected to be picked up sometime next week. No point I guess in it standing in ZeeBrugge.

The new deliveries of the 45e from now on are a different production batch therefore have no problems! People are collecting their new 45e's all this week!!! annoying!

Also I asked him what would happen if the delay gets closer till 2021 for the tax implications. He told me once you have a signed contract before 1st Oct 20' the new tax rules do not apply.
I also asked about the warranty on the battery and particularly a warranty related to this fault, and he told me there is a 6 year battery warranty standard.

Finally I asked him about the official communication from BMW, he told me BMW are only contacting the people who have already have their car delivered and are driving on restricted modes. I can imagine they need to do this for liability reasons. (he also seemed to think there will be a fuel compensation for these customers) - going to follow this up a later date!

So I guess we need to wait out another week and we will then have some more concrete information.

At least this is what I have been told!!
Thanks for sharing. Very helpful and seems reliable at least. I wonder how they are going to run these tests when actual cars are not longer in central Europe. In my case the car is already in Norway. I see two possibilities, A. Ship it back to Bremerhaven or Zebrugge and deal with at the temporarily test locations. B. All the dealer to do the test here in Norway. Option B would likely be a quicker option obviously....
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      10-27-2020, 08:19 AM   #494
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A separate tread exist for diesel and petrol cars with the same recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
The 40d is a mild hybrid and I think those are also part of the recall.
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      10-27-2020, 09:05 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyhank82 View Post
Agreed on the risk of having more issues than the regular gas model causing inconvenience but the way I see it once I take the federal and state tax credit (plus all the dealer discount and manufacturer incentives), I can trade-in the car and either be ahead or breakeven on net cost so there is very little financial risk in the first couple of years....
The Federal and State tax credits are an immediate hit to depreciation. You'll never trade it in for more than the net after those credits. No one will pay more for a used car than they can pay net on a new one.

Hypothetically, let's say your out-the-door price was $75k and your credits are $10k, so your net cost is $65k. Anyone else in your state can get that same net cost of $65k on a new 45e. Therefore the price on used ones must be below that for anyone to be interested in buying used. The $10k is instant depreciation.
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      10-27-2020, 09:54 AM   #496
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I will agree with most that it is quite annoying to say the least. For myself about 3 weeks into the ownership experience, I get the phone call and the offer of money. I do have faith that BMW will address the issue. I don't have any reason to believe that this will lead to other issues, after all this is not the first time BMW has been in the PHEV business. I also believe that from previous experience with my X3 Diesel when it was plagued with issues that BMW will do the right thing and trade assist me out of my vehicle. In the meantime I will use the money they gave me to upgrade my speakers from the junk HIFI ones and be slightly impatient as I wait for the fix.
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      10-27-2020, 10:08 AM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer518 View Post
The Federal and State tax credits are an immediate hit to depreciation. You'll never trade it in for more than the net after those credits. No one will pay more for a used car than they can pay net on a new one.

Hypothetically, let's say your out-the-door price was $75k and your credits are $10k, so your net cost is $65k. Anyone else in your state can get that same net cost of $65k on a new 45e. Therefore the price on used ones must be below that for anyone to be interested in buying used. The $10k is instant depreciation.
Except my MSRP is 70k and my net purchase price is $47k:

$7k dealer discount
$2.5k APR credit
$1k OL code
$1k corp sales
$4k state credit
$7.5k federal credit

Good luck finding a very low mileage MY21 45e in CO or elsewhere in the country for $47k or less. My sales tax is 8% but if I trade-in the car my trade-in value is excluded from the sales tax so not much of a loss there either...
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      10-27-2020, 10:35 AM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rparker View Post
Thanks for sharing. Very helpful and seems reliable at least. I wonder how they are going to run these tests when actual cars are not longer in central Europe. In my case the car is already in Norway. I see two possibilities, A. Ship it back to Bremerhaven or Zebrugge and deal with at the temporarily test locations. B. All the dealer to do the test here in Norway. Option B would likely be a quicker option obviously....
I heard that in Finland the cars will be shipped back to Hanko (the port where the new cars arrive here). Probably the same for other countries?
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      10-27-2020, 10:47 AM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyhank82 View Post
Except my MSRP is 70k and my net purchase price is $47k:

$7k dealer discount
$2.5k APR credit
$1k OL code
$1k corp sales
$4k state credit
$7.5k federal credit

Good luck finding a very low mileage MY21 45e in CO or elsewhere in the country for $47k or less. My sales tax is 8% but if I trade-in the car my trade-in value is excluded from the sales tax so not much of a loss there either...
I'm not sure what the $1k OL code and$1k corp sales credits are. But anyone else should be able to get the rest and a net price of $49k. Therefore used will sell for less than that for your configuration.
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      10-27-2020, 11:06 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer518 View Post
I'm not sure what the $1k OL code and$1k corp sales credits are. But anyone else should be able to get the rest and a net price of $49k. Therefore used will sell for less than that for your configuration.
You are assuming that everyone is eligible for the full tax credit, which is not the case just like you seem not to qualify for the OL code or corp sale incentives since you are not aware of them. There is also no guarantee that every new buyer will get the 10% or better dealer discount. Furthermore, doing a quick search you can see let alone the 45e, you cannot find a used low-mileage MY20 40i in the country for $49K. Even the absolute base 40i xDrive retails for around $50k (roughly 20% depreciation in one year). It makes very little sense that the more expensive 45e should be cheaper despite having the same engine, extra features, and better fuel economy just because the original owner might be eligible for tax incentives.

Last edited by moodyhank82; 10-27-2020 at 11:18 AM..
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      10-27-2020, 11:51 AM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyrouge View Post
Only PHEVs are affected.
According to some threads here the mild hybrids are also affected by the problem.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=26744425
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      10-27-2020, 12:25 PM   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieb27 View Post
Just had an update from my dealer in Belgium. In fairness to him, he is always really helpful and communicates with me everything he knows.
I think the communication problem is, that he, along with the other dealers are a little bit left in the dark in this whole situation.

So in summary;
The process of testing starts in ZeeBrugge from Nov 4th.
Everything for the moment seems on track and he expects once they get started it will move pretty quick, of course depending where you are in the queue.
I don't think we can expect any cars being released before 2nd week Nov.


They are installing charging poles in ZeeBrugge at the moment for the testing, hence the delay.

He told me we will know a lot more next week once everything gets started.
My car is still at the dealers, which I understand. Expected to be picked up sometime next week. No point I guess in it standing in ZeeBrugge.

The new deliveries of the 45e from now on are a different production batch therefore have no problems! People are collecting their new 45e's all this week!!! annoying!

Also I asked him what would happen if the delay gets closer till 2021 for the tax implications. He told me once you have a signed contract before 1st Oct 20' the new tax rules do not apply.
I also asked about the warranty on the battery and particularly a warranty related to this fault, and he told me there is a 6 year battery warranty standard.

Finally I asked him about the official communication from BMW, he told me BMW are only contacting the people who have already have their car delivered and are driving on restricted modes. I can imagine they need to do this for liability reasons. (he also seemed to think there will be a fuel compensation for these customers) - going to follow this up a later date!

So I guess we need to wait out another week and we will then have some more concrete information.

At least this is what I have been told!!
Hi,

I checked with my dealer, also Belgium...
He says your info is correct. Only the date 4th nov is not confirmed yet.
The procedure will take about 68 hours to test a car.: confused0068:

Lets hope things speed up now.:boog::boog:

My adventage is that my car still is in Zeebrugge since 20th september.
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      10-27-2020, 12:30 PM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer518 View Post
The Federal and State tax credits are an immediate hit to depreciation. You'll never trade it in for more than the net after those credits. No one will pay more for a used car than they can pay net on a new one.

Hypothetically, let's say your out-the-door price was $75k and your credits are $10k, so your net cost is $65k. Anyone else in your state can get that same net cost of $65k on a new 45e. Therefore the price on used ones must be below that for anyone to be interested in buying used. The $10k is instant depreciation.
That sure as hell doesn't happen with Teslas. To the great frustration of many used car buyers I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyhank82 View Post
You are assuming that everyone is eligible for the full tax credit, which is not the case just like you seem not to qualify for the OL code or corp sale incentives since you are not aware of them. There is also no guarantee that every new buyer will get the 10% or better dealer discount. Furthermore, doing a quick search you can see let alone the 45e, you cannot find a used low-mileage MY20 40i in the country for $49K. Even the absolute base 40i xDrive retails for around $50k (roughly 20% depreciation in one year). It makes very little sense that the more expensive 45e should be cheaper despite having the same engine, extra features, and better fuel economy just because the original owner might be eligible for tax incentives.
Basically for this reason. Original purchaser gets the tax credit. Doesn't mean that tax credit gets passed along in the form of greater depreciation. Doesn't seem to affect prices of off lease cars either.
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      10-27-2020, 01:06 PM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codex57 View Post
That sure as hell doesn't happen with Teslas. To the great frustration of many used car buyers I suppose.
Doesn't mean that tax credit gets passed along in the form of greater depreciation. Doesn't seem to affect prices of off lease cars either.
Bought my Model 3 for $49k last year, took $7k in tax credit combined this Spring. My trade-in value today is $42k so either Teslas do not depreciate or the tax credit is not a full-value reduction. Plus how do you keep track of the status of tax credit by make/model/year? Bolts were eligible for the full $7.5k originally and today they get no credit so did the price of older Bolts go up by $7.5k as the federal tax credit gradually went away last year? Probably not. I believe the market price is set by looking at the MSRP for a new one and assuming a depreciation percentage regardless of manufacturer or tax incentives that might not be available to everyone and that could also change over time.
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      10-27-2020, 02:18 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyhank82 View Post
I believe the market price is set by looking at the MSRP for a new one and assuming a depreciation percentage regardless of manufacturer or tax incentives that might not be available to everyone and that could also change over time.
Here is where we differ. I believe that market price is based on the net that people typically pay for the new vehicle. In the case of Tesla that would be MSRP, since they don't discount, plus any state incentive as their federal incentives have run out. In the case of the 45e it should factor in typical BMW/dealer incentives, and federal and state incentives.

In my case, my 45e on order has an MSRP of $82,395, but my out the door price is $77,625 after discounts and taxes. Then I get the $7,500 federal credit for a net of $70,125. I didn't qualify for loyalty incentive. Any other person with similar negotiating skills and a federal tax liability of at least $7,500 should be able to get the same net price I did. So I consider the going rate for my build to be $70,125 and the depreciation starts from there, not from $82,395.
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      10-27-2020, 02:31 PM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer518 View Post
I believe that market price is based on the net that people typically pay for the new vehicle. So I consider the going rate for my build to be $70,125 and the depreciation starts from there, not from $82,395.
I hear you and I think we are just going to agree to disagree but just out of curiosity I did submit an appraisal request for my 45e on Vroom (Carvana does not have 45e in their system yet) and I will report back when they send me an offer.
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