[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by kolosy

Thanks for that post, interesting. This is my concern: " significantly compromises comfort for some"

By "some" I mean people looking for a couch on wheels IMO if that's the case, one shouldn't be looking at the X5M: it's a sport oriented vehicle with the capabilities to match. See below.

Originally Posted by Jagu

Thank you. This is what I’ve been looking for. I’m considering an X6 M next year but the so called stiff ride was scaring me.

Yup, I had the same fear, especially after driving the X3M, but the X5M isn't like that at all, at least to me.

For me, I don't want full insulation from the road, and I definitely don't want the body roll that comes with that, nor the floatyness ... My preference is to feel what's there, have minimal body roll, and not have road roughness hammer me out of my seat. In a decent vehicle, that should just be damping tuning: on the fly, transmit the small stuff with light damping, transmit the heavy stuff with heavy damping, but don't unsettle the car OR ME! That's exactly the X5M does to my butt.

One of my tests is a speed bump I'm familiar with and I've taken a LOT of cars over at ~3mph; as a comparison a GMC Acadia will throw you into the roof and lose traction, a highlander will give you a slow but meaty toss up keeping traction mostly, and the X5M will give you quick jolt without unsettling you or the car.

TBH, I'm 50, have a slight herniated disc, routine back issues, and my reaction is, "how on earth would anyone consider this a harsh ride??". If one does though, and doesn't want to give up lack of body roll or road feel, then the Porsche Cayenne is the better bet. There's no doubt the M50i w/ air suspension has a WAY more cushy luxe-oriented ride, but IME that comes at the cost body roll and road feel whereas the Cayenne doesn't.

Net-Net: The X5M transmits road texture without any jarring or harshness, but then I've primarily daily-driven M3/4s for the last 15 years and have never wanted a luxe-ride so my harshness bar is likely higher than other's.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by dynamic

Sounds like you have it all figured out my man. Us V8 adopters are a bunch of dummies.
You spent $20,000 less than we did and you got a better vehicle. Good for you!

What kind of mileage are you getting with the M50i both in town and on the interstate?

I've read people getting better than 25mpg (like, 26-27mpg) on highway drives with the 40i drive, so curious what M50i drivers are getting.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

omasou what's your issue with the V8? I'd agree that a hot-v engine is always gonna be tough to work on and the early versions didn't bode well with their plastic chain guides that had a habit of fragging ... but it does seem like they've fixed that ...

I can say overall the best V8 I've had period (BMW or otherwise) was the E9x's S65 ... that whole car, probably due to being derivative of Albert Biermann's Porsche killer track car, was/is an inspiration with a real soul; it's not a cliche in the case of the e9x - even my wife said the car felt like it was alive and it hated going <50mph ... only vehicle I regret selling ...

ANYway, I can't speak with full knowledge on the X5 M's S63 (S63B44T4) as I'm not past my 1200 miles break-in service yet, so I'll withhold judgement until then ... probably the biggest disappointment is the lack of a M-DCT in exchange for the ZF eight-speed. It's ok, but not ever close to M-DCT's heyday which was 2014/15; the tuning on the M-DCT's was just fucking BRUtal, as in full throttle upshifts at 80mph felt like getting donkey kicked in the ass and torque dump was intoxicating ... then they completely wussified the tuning in the 2016/17 timeframe

For those reasons I probably would've leaned towards a Cayenne GTS (suspension tuning and PDK) this time had it not been for the supply chain problems, but I'm still very happy with the X5 M ... so far.

I'll need to light it up post 1200 mile service in the mountains to decide how well the drivetrain works for me.

BMW seems to be really falling behind when it comes to suspensions & transmissions ...

Great point regarding the tranny, and one I've forgotten. I owned a 2009 X6 xdrive with the TT V8 at that time and did have some minor issues just prior to the expiration of its 6 year extended warranty.

I then owned a 2018 M2 in a 6mt, but at that time, also drove that car in DCT, and remember thinking how close BMW came to overall performance with that tranny relative to Porsche's PDK.

I still cannot understand why BMW went away from DCT when it was so amazing for so long...........I'm guessing it was cost issues for going with the ZF 8 speed auto?

[omasou]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

...I still cannot understand why BMW went away from DCT when it was so amazing for so long...........I'm guessing it was cost issues for going with the ZF 8 speed auto?

If you search the M2 forum you will find a link to a video that I posted. Seems the reason is that BMW could have 2 gears ready w/the ZF vs. only one w/the DCT and probably some other synergy from having one "automatic" tranny for all/most vehicles.

Whatever the reason, I'm really sad they don't offer the DCT. I had one in M2 and now in my M2C and it is a FANTASTIC transmission, best of both worlds.

EDIT: here it is...https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=79

[omasou]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

omasou what's your issue with the V8? I'd agree that a hot-v engine is always gonna be tough to work on and the early versions didn't bode well with their plastic chain guides that had a habit of fragging ... but it does seem like they've fixed that ...

I can say overall the best V8 I've had period (BMW or otherwise) was the E9x's S65 ... that whole car, probably due to being derivative of Albert Biermann's Porsche killer track car, was/is an inspiration with a real soul; it's not a cliche in the case of the e9x - even my wife said the car felt like it was alive and it hated going <50mph ... only vehicle I regret selling ...

ANYway, I can't speak with full knowledge on the X5 M's S63 (S63B44T4) as I'm not past my 1200 miles break-in service yet, so I'll withhold judgement until then ... probably the biggest disappointment is the lack of a M-DCT in exchange for the ZF eight-speed. It's ok, but not ever close to M-DCT's heyday which was 2014/15; the tuning on the M-DCT's was just fucking BRUtal, as in full throttle upshifts at 80mph felt like getting donkey kicked in the ass and torque dump was intoxicating ... then they completely wussified the tuning in the 2016/17 timeframe

For those reasons I probably would've leaned towards a Cayenne GTS (suspension tuning and PDK) this time had it not been for the supply chain problems, but I'm still very happy with the X5 M ... so far.

I'll need to light it up post 1200 mile service in the mountains to decide how well the drivetrain works for me.

BMW seems to be really falling behind when it comes to suspensions & transmissions ...

I don't have an issue so much w/the V8, ok I do, but really just trying to provide some balance vs. bashing it.

BMW is known for their I6 engines and I hope they will always have one as an option. Even their 4 cylinder are getting positive press. Anyway back to the V8...

In 2008, I was coming out of a C32 AMG and looking to get back into a BMW. Side note, the ONLY reason I left was b/c when I was getting ready to option my E46M3 they started blowing engines and at the time BMW did not know it was caused by the out of spec bearings starving the crank of oil. All of the I6 engines were turbo charged and coming out of a supercharged MB, which I hated, I opted for the E70 V8 (N62), the last NA engine w/any HP. I ran that engine to 128K. It had expensive issues later in its life. At around 60K the engine was eating oil and water but not a drop outside the engine. Later my normal mechanic said there was a timing bolt (I forget the details but it is an issue just wasn't my issue) leaking in the bottom of the block and was a major repair. I took it to a well know BMW shop and they said it wasn't the bolt but just the front timing case leaking. $4K later it was fixed and I think the missing coolant was in the valley pan. It was still eating oil but nothing too bad. Then less thank 3 years later it ate coolant again and the HP felt like it was starting to drop. Researching it, it turns out the way the block is designed oil tends to build up and block some major engine arteries and if that was the case there was no inexpensive way to fix it.

I then started researching the 5 series, which was using the N63 but heard horror stories about it eating oil, etc. I even met one fellow that carried a case of oil in his 5 series and feed it 1 qt every 1K. For some reason the S63 didn't seem so bad and I almost talked my self into an X5M but while looking for 5's and M's I learned about the M2. At that point, I decided to stick w/the I6.

Yes, BMW has been improving the V8 and they keep iterating it but as you can see from the links that I provided it still has issues and to believe it doesn't is lying to yourself.

As for the S65, if I remember correctly that was the same time as the MB C43 AMG. Read the reviews from back then. Both the BMW and MB had good reviews but all complained that it was too much weight up front and that it messed w/the handling. The V8s were short lived in those chassies and I'm not sure why both BMW and MB did it. Racing? Either way they haven't repeated that mistake, yet.

Not sure if the new V8 still has a valley pan or how they are routing the water but that video you posted of the guy tearing apart the V8 sealed the deal for me against the V8 w/that "hot" V design. You can see how the vibration of the engine and turbos cause the turbo oil feeds to loosen over time and leak oil that bakes in the V. It's a mess.

So if the goal is HP and TRQ, go for the 50i or M version. If I were to buy one, I would opt for the M over the 50i. But I wouldn't own a BMW V8 out of warranty. Period.

I have only driven the X6 40i for less than 200 miles and I did buy the M brakes. They are OK but not really adequate for a vehicle this heavy let alone one putting out 500+ HP. I think the M has better brakes (?) but I believe the M50i has the same brakes as I do. Yes, I'm spoiled by the M2C brakes and people can complain all-day about their weight and unsprung weight but I know I can stop if I need to. I may put my head through the windshield but I will stop.

Now folks buying M's and V8 don't care and shouldn't b/c you have to pay to play but the mileage w/the B58 is insane! Like I said, I haven't even finished my first tank of gas but the darn thing is getting 27 MPG! Which is crazy when you consider that my E36M3 was getting 16 MPG back in the day and only put out 250HP, plus I had to pay a gas guzzler tax for that car. So it's just fantastic to see the range on a tank is 400+ miles which is refreshing considering how often I need to feed the damn M2C w/it's stupid 13 gallon tank.

EDIT: stupid dash trip data displays avg MPH not MPG. MPG = 19.8

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

I still cannot understand why BMW went away from DCT when it was so amazing for so long...........I'm guessing it was cost issues for going with the ZF 8 speed auto?

100% because BMW accountants have taken over BMW product decisions. If you read/watch all of the excellent interviews with Albert Biermann he tells the story:

BMW tapped him to lead their M motorsport R&D to build a car that could beat Porsche on the circuit and that car - which did beat Porsche - was the inspiration for the E9x M3 and most importantly of all, the S63 V8 engine, something that was heresy at the time.

Following up from that, they put Biermann as head of M engineering & product for the F8x and Biermann came up with an evolution of the E9x platform and motor, but the accountants shut him down and said he had to go turbo to hit his performance figures for 1 reason only: cost. That then lit up a firestorm at M engineering and many of the engineers threatened to leave, but Bierman was able to keep them together to build the F8x.

However following up from that, BMW accountants turned the screws further for the next vehicles and this included cutting support for the DCT. At that point, Biermann and others left, with Biermann famously going to Hyundai and creating Hyundai "N" and Bierman's Hyundai Ns have ... wait for it ...

DCTs!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

100% because BMW accountants have taken over BMW product decisions. If you read/watch all of the excellent interviews with Albert Biermann he tells the story:

BMW tapped him to lead their M motorsport R&D to build a car that could beat Porsche on the circuit and that car - which did beat Porsche - was the inspiration for the E9x M3 and most importantly of all, the S63 V8 engine, something that was heresy at the time.

Following up from that, they put Biermann as head of M engineering & product for the F8x and Biermann came up with an evolution of the E9x platform and motor, but the accountants shut him down and said he had to go turbo to hit his performance figures for 1 reason only: cost. That then lit up a firestorm at M engineering and many of the engineers threatened to leave, but Bierman was able to keep them together to build the F8x.

However following up from that, BMW accountants turned the screws further for the next vehicles and this included cutting support for the DCT. At that point, Biermann and others left, with Biermann famously going to Hyundai and creating Hyundai "N" and Bierman's Hyundai Ns have ... wait for it ...

[COLOR="Blue"]DCTs![/COLOR]

Probably the greatest engine made was a BMW V12 and it held the top speed record for 10 years from what I recall.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M70#S70/2

The story is that McLaren went to Acura for the F1 engine, since they were so impressed with the NSX, but Acura wasn't interested and they ended up sourcing it From BMW and in the process created one of the greatest of all time!

Rumor has it, BMW wants to buy McLaren..

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by omasou

I don't have an issue so much w/the V8, ok I do, but really just trying to provide some balance vs. bashing it.

BMW is know for their I6 engines and I hope they will always have one as an option. Even their 4 cylinder are getting positive press. Anyway back to the V8...

In 2008, I was coming out of a C32 AMG and looking to get back into a BMW. Side note, the ONLY reason I left was b/c when I was getting ready to option my E46M3 they started blowing engines and at the time BMW did not know it was caused by the out of spec bearings starving the crank of oil. All of the I6 engines were turbo charged and coming out of a supercharged MB, which I hated, I opted for the E70 V8 (N62), the last NA engine w/any HP. I ran that engine to 128K. It had expensive issues later in its life. At around 60K the engine was eating oil and water but not a drop outside the engine. Later my normal mechanic said there was a timing bolt (I forget the details but it is an issue just wasn't my issue) leaking in the bottom of the block and was a major repair. I took it to a well know BMW shop and they said it wasn't the bolt but just the front timing case leaking. $4K later it was fixed and I think the missing coolant was in the valley pan. It was still eating oil but nothing too bad. Then less thank 3 years later it ate coolant again and the HP felt like it was starting to drop. Researching it, it turns out the way the block is designed oil tends to build up and block some major engine arteries and if that was the case there was no inexpensive way to fix it.

I then started researching the 5 series, which was using the N63 but heard horror stories about it eating oil, etc. I even met one fellow that carried a case of oil in his 5 series and feed it 1 qt every 1K. For some reason the S63 didn't seem so bad and I almost talked my self into an X5M but while looking for 5's and M's I learned about the M2. At that point, I decided to stick w/the I6.

Yes, BMW has been improving the V8 and they keep iterating it but as you can see from the links that I provided it still has issues and to believe it doesn't is lying to yourself.

As for the S65, if I remember correctly that was the same time as the MB C43 AMG. Read the reviews from back then. Both the BMW and MB had good reviews but all complained that it was too much weight up front and that it messed w/the handling. The V8s were short lived in those chassies and I'm not sure why both BMW and MB did it. Racing? Either way they haven't repeated that mistake, yet.

Not sure if the new V8 still has a valley pan or how they are routing the water but that video you posted of the guy tearing apart the V8 sealed the deal for me against the V8 w/that "hot" V design. You can see how the vibration of the engine and turbos cause the turbo oil feeds to loosen over time and leak oil that bakes in the V. It's a mess.

So if the goal is HP and TRQ, go for the 50i or M version. If I were to buy one, I would opt for the M over the 50i. But I wouldn't own a BMW V8 out of warranty. Period.

I have only driven the X6 40i for less than 200 miles and I did buy the M brakes. They are OK but not really adequate for a vehicle this heavy let alone one putting out 500+ HP. I think the M has better brakes (?) but I believe the M50i has the same brakes as I do. Yes, I'm spoiled by the M2C brakes and people can complain all-day about their weight and unsprung weight but I know I can stop if I need to. I may put my head through the windshield but I will stop.

Now folks buying M's and V8 don't care and shouldn't b/c you have to pay to play but the mileage w/the B58 is insane! Like I said, I haven't even finished my first tank of gas but the darn thing is getting 27 MPG! Which is crazy when you consider that my E36M3 was getting 16 MPG back in the day and only put out 250HP, plus I had to pay a gas guzzler tax for that car. So it's just fantastic to see the range on a tank is 400+ miles which is refreshing considering how often I need to feed the damn M2C w/it's stupid 13 gallon tank.

Good stuff. Let me ask you this question: if you were in a position to not be able to have a 2nd fun/dedicated sports car, and your DD had to be a jack of all trades vehicle, would you still be hesitant in taking a chance on getting a M50i (assume you're keeping it either 4 years/50k miles, or adding on a 5th year to the warranty)??

Or does the xdrive 40i provide enough fun factor to not miss driving a M2/Shelby GT350 (my last 2 fun cars) ?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

Let me ask you this question: if you were in a position to not be able to have a 2nd fun/dedicated sports car, and your DD had to be a jack of all trades vehicle, would you still be hesitant in taking a chance on getting a M50i

Well, that happens to be the exact position I'm in, so I got the X5M

[omasou]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

Good stuff. Let me ask you this question: if you were in a position to not be able to have a 2nd fun/dedicated sports car, and your DD had to be a jack of all trades vehicle, would you still be hesitant in taking a chance on getting a M50i (assume you're keeping it either 4 years/50k miles, or adding on a 5th year to the warranty)??

Or does the xdrive 40i provide enough fun factor to not miss driving a M2/Shelby GT350 (my last 2 fun cars) ?

If I wanted an SAV/SAC and wasn't keeping the V8 past ~65K I would buy an X6MC with DHP and a winter set of wheels and tires; knowing my MPG would be in the gutter. Though in the past I've opted for a car with a winter set of wheels and tires.

If I lived in a warm state I'd fit the SAV/SAC with a staggered set of 22" or 21"/22" whatever BMW did for the comp.

I would proactively replace the CCV(s) V8 (x2) or I6 at ~50K unless BMW stupidly made it a fixed part of the intake cover like they did w/some models. This is the first "oil consumption" part that will go and is easily fixed.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Well, that happens to be the exact position I'm in, so I got the X5M

You got rid of the M4C Indv?

That would be a very hard trade...a vert to SAV. Especially in CA.

[dynamic]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

What kind of mileage are you getting with the M50i both in town and on the interstate?

I've read people getting better than 25mpg (like, 26-27mpg) on highway drives with the 40i drive, so curious what M50i drivers are getting.

My M50i has 7500 on the clock since new and the combined mileage during that entire period is 17.8. This is 95% or more non highway on perfectly level roads. I would guess that the highway mileage would be significantly more but I do not care about gas mileage.
I am simply amazed when reading posts from guys who buy an $80k BMW SUV and are then full blown anal about the mileage they get in their 45e along with all the penny pinching strategies they employ. It is ridiculous, spend this money on a high brand vehicle and then drive it like a raw egg is under the gas pedal.
We like big V8s in cars boats etc. The gasoline saved by the oh so thrifty is that much more the meat eaters I hang with can waste.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by dynamic

My M50i has 7500 on the clock since new and the combined mileage during that entire period is 17.8. This is 95% or more non highway on perfectly level roads. I would guess that the highway mileage would be significantly more but I do not care about gas mileage.
I am simply amazed when reading posts from guys who buy an $80k BMW SUV and are then full blown anal about the mileage they get in their 45e along with all the penny pinching strategies they employ. It is ridiculous, spend this money on a high brand vehicle and then drive it like a raw egg is under the gas pedal.
We like big V8s in cars boats etc. The gasoline saved by the oh so thrifty is that much more the meat eaters I hang with can waste.

Agree 100%! Gotta pay to play.

Even at $0.10 difference between 93 and 91 were only talking about $1.00/10 gallons. So less than $2.00 to fill up an X5/X6?

[Luminor513]

Originally Posted by dynamic

My M50i has 7500 on the clock since new and the combined mileage during that entire period is 17.8. This is 95% or more non highway on perfectly level roads. I would guess that the highway mileage would be significantly more but I do not care about gas mileage.
I am simply amazed when reading posts from guys who buy an $80k BMW SUV and are then full blown anal about the mileage they get in their 45e along with all the penny pinching strategies they employ. It is ridiculous, spend this money on a high brand vehicle and then drive it like a raw egg is under the gas pedal.
We like big V8s in cars boats etc. The gasoline saved by the oh so thrifty is that much more the meat eaters I hang with can waste.

Agree completely. I have a 40i, but drive in sport plus quite often, and I don't really care if it uses more gas or not, it's truly irrelevant. If gas mileage is priority, there are plenty of other options out there besides 5000 lb performance oriented SUV's.

[dynamic]

Originally Posted by omasou

Agree 100%! Gotta pay to play.

Even at $0.10 difference between 93 and 91 were only talking about $1.00/10 gallons. So less than $2.00 to fill up an X5/X6?

You get it!
Nobody on their death bed is going to boast about how they got 21 MPG while others got 17. I am 65 and starting to get a very good idea and perspective about how short life really is for the average person.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by dynamic

My M50i has 7500 on the clock since new and the combined mileage during that entire period is 17.8. This is 95% or more non highway on perfectly level roads. I would guess that the highway mileage would be significantly more but I do not care about gas mileage.
I am simply amazed when reading posts from guys who buy an $80k BMW SUV and are then full blown anal about the mileage they get in their 45e along with all the penny pinching strategies they employ. It is ridiculous, spend this money on a high brand vehicle and then drive it like a raw egg is under the gas pedal.
We like big V8s in cars boats etc. The gasoline saved by the oh so thrifty is that much more the meat eaters I hang with can waste.

I was asking mostly out of curiosity for the differences you're getting between highway and around town.
That isn't too bad actually for 95% around town driving.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by omasou

If I wanted an SAV/SAC and wasn't keeping the V8 past ~65K I would buy an X6MC with DHP and a winter set of wheels and tires; knowing my MPG would be in the gutter. Though in the past I've opted for a car with a winter set of wheels and tires.

If I lived in a warm state I'd fit the SAV/SAC with a staggered set of 22" or 21"/22" whatever BMW did for the comp.

I would proactively replace the CCV(s) V8 (x2) or I6 at ~50K unless BMW stupidly made it a fixed part of the intake cover like they did w/some models. This is the first "oil consumption" part that will go and is easily fixed.

My use case is going to be as a DD with very short trips to work (about a mile each way), along with 350 mile round trips about 2 weekends a month, the occasional 900 mile road trip every couple of months, and exploring lots of outdoor places for hiking, etc, which will be anywhere from 45 min to 90 min trips each way on some weekends.

Ergo, I'm going with 20" wheels so I can fit some 275 AT tires on there and get rid of the RF's.......... perhaps after about a year or so (haven't decided on that one).
To make AT tires work on the X drive system, I know I can't have staggered wheels, and I think I have to opt out of the M brakes as well.
That's the other reason I'm not sure the M50 -- with that added power-- makes a lot of sense for me. But damn, would it be fun to be able to have perhaps one of the last of the TT V8's and still be able to make it somewhat off road capable.

[JimVR4]

Originally Posted by omasou

You got rid of the M4C Indv?

That would be a very hard trade...a vert to SAV. Especially in CA.

Exact trade I just made. Sold my modified 1995 3000GT Spyder and the M50i is my fun car and DD until I retire in about 3 years.

[JimVR4]

Originally Posted by dynamic

You get it!
Nobody on their death bed is going to boast about how they got 21 MPG while others got 17. I am 65 and starting to get a very good idea and perspective about how short life really is for the average person.

4500 miles and averaging 17.3 since factory!

[mmm50i]

I'm averaging 12-16mpg at ~1000mi from new. I'm mainly in sport individual and I have ASS coded off though in comfort.

Edit: Forgot to mention that it's all city driving. I think short road trips really bring down the mileage efficiency as well.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by mmm50i

I'm averaging 12-16mpg at ~1000mi from new. I'm mainly in sport individual and I have ASS coded off though in comfort.

Are you at elevation by chance? I live at 7k feet above sea level and get better mileage in general c/w sea level. That changes dramatically of course when I'm climbing from sea level to get back up here.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

My use case is going to be as a DD with very short trips to work (about a mile each way), along with 350 mile round trips about 2 weekends a month, the occasional 900 mile road trip every couple of months, and exploring lots of outdoor places for hiking, etc, which will be anywhere from 45 min to 90 min trips each way on some weekends.

Ergo, I'm going with 20" wheels so I can fit some 275 AT tires on there and get rid of the RF's.......... perhaps after about a year or so (haven't decided on that one).
To make AT tires work on the X drive system, I know I can't have staggered wheels, and I think I have to opt out of the M brakes as well.
That's the other reason I'm not sure the M50 -- with that added power-- makes a lot of sense for me. But damn, would it be fun to be able to have perhaps one of the last of the TT V8's and still be able to make it somewhat off road capable.

PSA. If your normal daily routine is 1 mile each way, you will need to take the vehicle out for >15 minutes at least 1/week (?) to charge the 12V and 24V batteries. You may want to look up the details but my understanding is that in order to achieve their fuel efficiency goals BMW doesn't start charging the batteries (run the alternator?) until the car has been driven >15 minutes.

This will also allow the exhaust to fully heat up and evaporate any condensate.

If you're taking long trips and not powering around the 40i may be a better choice. Sure you need to pay to play but if you're filling up a couple of time for a trip it does get old.

BTW, I'm not easy on the gas by any means and don't drive in comfort and still seeing 19.8 MPG for now. Not a requirement but certainly a pleasant surprise.