[DaveDBD]

Be aware that BMW has been reducing the allowable ethanol content and for the 50e it is 10%.

[jad03060]

IMHO, ethanol is a big hype...it has less energy per volume of fuel compared to pure gasoline, is mostly made from corn which is a very fertilizer intensive crop, and is using what could be food for the world to stretch the fuel supply. It also can cause some issues if it sits in a typical gas tank if it's in an area with high humidity. With the way the PHEV's tank is designed, it hasn't proven to be a big issue, but the more of it there is in the mix, the higher the probability. THere's been enough history for maybe BMW to change that recommendation. The farmers like it as it's a fixed market...the rest of the world other than the politicians would rather not have it at all.

[Line Drive]

Jad, I suggest your presidential campaign skip the Iowa caucuses next year.

[jad03060]

Yeah, lots of farmers, especially big corporate ones, are big into growing corn for ethanol, and have lots of pull with politicians...the original premise wasn't that valid, but hey...it is what it is.

[scottie31]

I live in a pro-ethanol state and have never bought into the hype. Recently some studies have shed light on the carbon emissions associated with the production of ethanol (from seed to the pump), taking some of the gloss off the ethanol marketing engine.

Personally I don’t use ethanol blends in any of my vehicles unless I can’t avoid it.

[akin67]

It requires more energy to produce ethanol than the energy you get out of it. And if it stays too long in engines it gunks up. Unfortunately everything you buy in the US has to have that crap due to the powerful corn lobby.

[DaveDBD]

Originally Posted by akin67

It requires more energy to produce ethanol than the energy you get out of it. And if it stays too long in engines it gunks up. Unfortunately everything you buy in the US has to have that crap due to the powerful corn lobby.

Ethanol today puts out 30% more energy than it takes to produce unlike 15 years ago. It also allows premium gas without significant use of more oil as well as more powerful and efficient engines.

Also corn for ethanol is not human edible. It does not affect human food supply. The corn crush leftover is used as food for animals.

Ethanol also saves 1 million barrels per day of oil usage which requires soldiers lives to obtain/protect oil supplies as well as lowering oil price.

Overall ethanol is an advantage to the USA environmentally, economically, militarily and saves lives.

[jad03060]

While ethanol may not be a food for humans, the corn that is the primary source is.

Yes, ethanol raises the octane, but there are other ways to increase the octane.

This may shed some light on it... https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml Per that page, expect a 3-4 mpg decrease in fuel economy using E10 versus 'pure' gasoline, and more if you happen to be using E15.

[akin67]

Originally Posted by DaveDBD

Ethanol today puts out 30% more energy than it takes to produce unlike 15 years ago. It also allows premium gas without significant use of more oil as well as more powerful and efficient engines.

Also corn for ethanol is not human edible. It does not affect human food supply. The corn crush leftover is used as food for animals.

Ethanol also saves 1 million barrels per day of oil usage which requires soldiers lives to obtain/protect oil supplies as well as lowering oil price.

Overall ethanol is an advantage to the USA environmentally, economically, militarily and saves lives.

It should not be mandated by an industry lobby. Consumers should have a choice whether they want gasoline with this additive or not.

[DaveDBD]

Originally Posted by jad03060

While ethanol may not be a food for humans, the corn that is the primary source is.

Yes, ethanol raises the octane, but there are other ways to increase the octane.

The corn grown for ethanol is not fit for human consumption. There is more than enough corn grown that is fit. Ethanol corn does not affect the human food supply and does feed livestock.

Ethanol is the cheapest way to raise octane and uses less oil to to so. The whole fuel supply chain is based in having it. There are not enough refineries that could supply premium fuel without it.

Using ethanol to raise octane allows engines to be designed for higher fuel efficiency via higher compression ratios. It is not a simple less energy content means lower mpg.

And still BMW has lowered from 22% to 10% the max ethanol content since 2021. Which means if E15 ever replaces E10 as the standard fuel, what will BMW drivers do for fuel?

[DaveDBD]

Originally Posted by akin67

It should not be mandated by an industry lobby. Consumers should have a choice whether they want gasoline with this additive or not.

In many areas you do. Premium without ethanol is only 50 to 75 cents/gallon more than E10 premium.

[akin67]

Originally Posted by DaveDBD

In many areas you do. Premium without ethanol is only 50 to 75 cents/gallon more than E10 premium.

In NY / NJ I don't see it available as an option at the pump. We are stuck with the blended stuff.

[DaveDBD]

Originally Posted by akin67

In NY / NJ I don't see it available as an option at the pump. We are stuck with the blended stuff.

Try the Pure Gas iphone app.

[nZtiZia]

the only ethanol-free in my immediate area is for marine application

[jad03060]

The point about growing corn to make ethanol is that huge amounts of land is used for purposes other than providing food for humans, and the fact that corn requires significant amounts of fertilizer to enable a decent yield. There are lots of other crops that could be grown on that land. Also, producing that fertilizer typically utilizes some significant amounts of fossil fuels. Other crops are less dependent on the use of those fertilizers.

It would take years to wean the US off of the E10 or higher we have used.

Ethanol can also create more smog producing chemicals like formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, which often ends up in a wash versus pure gasoline, but throw in the production, and it produces a lot of CO2 to make that fertilizer from primarily, natural gas-fired plants.

I wouldn't have an issue with it if we could find a way to produce it economically with something like switch grass or waste wood products. Today, while that can be done, it's not as efficient, energy-wise. Switzerland requires it for fuel, for example and there's a big market for bootleg ethanol and cross-border fuel shopping.

I also accept that we're likely stuck with the stuff for a long time, and there's a huge industry setup to keep that going. In 2021, the US made about 55% of all the ethanol produced in the world, with Brazil the second with about 27%. Without subsidies, primarily from the government, it wouldn't be such a favorite crop in the USA, raising the retail price, removing the incentives to produce it. And, yes, there are some uses of the corn waste products for cattle feed. We'd likely be a healthier society if it wasn't used like that, though.

Anyway, it's interesting that BMW dropped the maximum allowed ethanol content in their new engines. While we've been making engine components that can stand up to its use for decades, it may be that continuing to make them capable of withstanding higher levels is either becoming more expensive, or harder to source. We may not find out the reason, but from an engineering viewpoint, I do find it interesting. The politics and environmental points will continue to be argued for ages. Ethanol per volume does contain less energy, making the vehicle less efficient on the road. Restricting the maximum amount of ethanol might be a means to ensure their EPA fuel economy ratings can be met. Again, something that we probably won't ever have any insight into directly. When the CAFE rating of the fleet is considered, there's a big incentive for even minor improvements. Restricting the amount of ethanol might be part of BMW's plan.

[DaveDBD]

There are no subsidies for ethanol production in the USA. They ended almost 10 years ago.

As to using ethanol corn land to grow other stuff, I am unaware of any crop shortages in the USA.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by akin67

It should not be mandated by an industry lobby. Consumers should have a choice whether they want gasoline with this additive or not.

E10 is only mandated in the US in high pollution areas. No where outside of major US cities is required to carry it. So you can just buy something else.

If you live in a high pollution area, then yes the government should be making regulations to reduce pollution as that has health implications for people who aren’t in your car…

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_blends.html

You can be upset I guess that most gas is E10 since fuel suppliers focus on the markets with the most consumers and most people live in urban areas… But that’s a silly argument to make as demand controls supply and those people are the demand.

[jad03060]

In the final days of 2020 Congress passed another coronavirus relief bill providing approximately $900 billion in spending across a variety of sectors. The package includes $11.2 billion in relief to be distributed by the Office of the Secretary of the United States Department of Agriculture, giving newly appointed Tom Vilsack discretion to provide support to biofuel producers. Specifically, the bill states that the Secretary “may make payments to producers of advanced biofuel, biomass-based diesel, cellulosic biofuel, conventional biofuel, or renewable fuels with market losses due to COVID-19.”

The bill includes $13 billion for the USDA to support agriculture and specifically allows for payments to producers of advanced biofuel, biomass-based diesel, cellulosic biofuel, conventional biofuel, or renewable fuel.

In addition, the bill extended several biofuels tax credits including a one-year extension of the biofuel producer tax credit, a $1.01 credit per gallon of second-generation biofuel produced.

So, how is this a removal of incentives to make ethanol? (Source, a Thought Co article)

[DaveDBD]

There used to be a subsidy per gallon which ended in 2012. Covid relief money is not a subsidy but helping industries stay in business. Lots of industries got it. Has nothing to do with the price per gallon.