[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

? The M60i engine is in its first year.

😔 the M60 engine is not in its first year of use, even though it is new to the X5 lineup.

The S68, which is in the M60, has been around for over a year. Thus time has undoubtedly allowed the assembly process to be refined, thereby reducing issues seen in earlier iterations of the engine.

Source: every manufacturer does this with production runs of parts.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by Giggler

It's also super important to note that that the model year does not necessarily represent a cut-off point on reliability improvements on a platform.

Examples:
The B58 originally had an oil pump with failure prone plastic components that was upgraded to metal parts halfway through the production year. Wiring harnesses are sometimes relocated to prevent pinching in the middle of production. Chassis welding and structural optimizations are made on the fly. Electronics and software are upgraded/updated on the fly. Certain types of squeaks and rattles are resolved in the middle of production. Just look at this chart of service bulletins for the G05 platform... look how it steadily decrease year over year. These service bulletins get integrated into the assembly process on an ongoing basis, not on a year over year basis.

Agreed, every manufacturer will make tweaks to parts as new productions runs happen.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

�� the M60 engine is not in its first year of use, even though it is new to the X5 lineup.

The S68, which is in the M60, has been around for over a year. Thus time has undoubtedly allowed the assembly process to be refined, thereby reducing issues seen in earlier iterations of the engine.

Source: every manufacturer does this with production runs of parts.

Not exactly true but if that is what you want to believe that is fine. There is no indication that any changes have been made to the engine and it was only on the market 8 months prior to going into the G05.

Getting back to your original post, the engine in the 50e has been out for the same exact time.

Obviously we are discussing a few months and it makes no difference but as with any reason, you have to decide what is important to you when making a purchase. In this case it was the perceive safety in the M60i engine.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Depend your definition of bullet proof. For the ability to create very big power out of the block, yes, very good in this regard. For longevity with average level of maintenance (already better than BMW manual stated), no, none of BMW turbos belongs here. Best bet for this within BMW family maybe M54 or N52, the version right before turbo.

You should check out M539 Restorations on YouTube if you’re into old school NA BMW engines. Today he released a video of him building an S65 V8. Porn for mechanics!

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Giggler

You should check out M539 Restorations on YouTube if you’re into old school NA BMW engines. Today he released a video of him building an S65 V8. Porn for mechanics!

I have two medium old school NA, M54 and S62 myself. The real big advantage of these are extremely simple in today's standard. I used to think they were complicated compared to say 2JZ in IS300, or 4G63 in Evo8, but man modern BMW turbo like N54 or B58, make them look like middle school project.

I actually love S65. If when opportunity comes, I will get one. Now, S85, as much as I love the V10, I don't think I have enough skill set to maintain one.

Maybe I am getting old, buying new car isn't exciting for me anymore. I will still buy new because of family car. But for my own enjoyment, I am partial to the mechanical or as another member said it, analog, cars.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Not exactly true but if that is what you want to believe that is fine. There is no indication that any changes have been made to the engine and it was only on the market 8 months prior to going into the G05.

Getting back to your original post, the engine in the 50e has been out for the same exact time.

Obviously we are discussing a few months and it makes no difference but as with any reason, you have to decide what is important to you when making a purchase. In this case it was the perceive safety in the M60i engine.

8 months prior to the launch of the LCI, however we are now over a year out.

The S68 in the M60 is a detuned M engine with forged internals, meaning risk is alleviated as they were able to pump out significant increases to HP and torque gains into the XM and X5M.

Conversely the 50e has increased power to the B58 over the 45e, meaning risk was increased, even when accounting for the increase of power by the electric motor.

Additionally, the 50e has had a large disparity in engine and drivetrain issues vs the M60i as evidenced by google searches (forums, Reddit, FB etc). TBH I’m surprised how few issues I have seen with the M60 thus far. Some of this is probably due to volume of sales, I would guess the 50e sells significantly more units than the M60.

I am very happy with my selection of the M60 over the 50e, with that being said I realize either vehicle could be a lemon or have issues. Ultimately, I felt the safer option was the M60 even though the practicality of the 50e was extremely enticing.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

8 months prior to the launch of the LCI, however we are now over a year out.

The S68 in the M60 is a detuned M engine with forged internals, meaning risk is alleviated as they were able to pump out significant increases to HP and torque gains into the XM and X5M.

Conversely the 50e has increased power to the B58 over the 45e, meaning risk was increased, even when accounting for the increase of power by the electric motor.

Additionally, the 50e has had a large disparity in engine and drivetrain issues vs the M60i as evidenced by google searches (forums, Reddit, FB etc). TBH I’m surprised how few issues I have seen with the M60 thus far. Some of this is probably due to volume of sales, I would guess the 50e sells significantly more units than the M60.

I am very happy with my selection of the M60 over the 50e, with that being said I realize either vehicle could be a lemon or have issues. Ultimately, I felt the safer option was the M60 even though the practicality of the 50e was extremely enticing.

I'm not saying there is anything bad about the choice of the M60i, that would be my choice also. Just was referring to the engines as they are the same age wise and usage wise. The B58TU2 is new also, they came out together, so nothing can be drawn between the 45e and 50e. The 50e certainly has had a lot of issues and I don't think we have seen any consistent ones with the M60i.

Edit: Here is some information from prior to introduction on both engines. https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/04/12/bmw-b58-s68-engines/

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

I'm not saying there is anything bad about the choice of the M60i, that would be my choice also. Just was referring to the engines as they are the same age wise and usage wise. The B58TU2 is new also, they came out together, so nothing can be drawn between the 45e and 50e. The 50e certainly has had a lot off issues and I don't think we have seen any consistent ones with the M60i.

The combustion motors are the same, but the drivetrain system overall is not due to the hybrid system in place. This points to something about the added power and/or the hybrid system causing unusual faults vs the non-hybrid variants when paired together. Hopefully they get it figured out, on paper the 50e is an absolute Unicorn.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

The combustion motors are the same, but the drivetrain system overall is not due to the hybrid system in place. This points to something about the added power and/or the hybrid system causing unusual faults vs the non-hybrid variants when paired together. Hopefully they get it figured out, on paper the 50e is an absolute Unicorn.

The problems have been mainly with the battery cooling valve. Not sure why you think it is a unicorn, the engine.drivetrain has been out for almost a year in the 750e. That is why I have been saying both are about the same age.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

The problems have been mainly with the battery cooling valve. Not sure why you think it is a unicorn, the engine.drivetrain has been out for almost a year in the 750e. That is why I have been saying both are about the same age.

My understanding is that the 750e and 50e are both model year 2024 vehicles. Not sure why you are thinking the 750e came out that much sooner than the 50e, we’re talking a few months max.

I was referring to the 50e as a unicorn because of its impressive combination of mpg and power in a larger SUV. From a practical standpoint it is a great vehicle.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by T3PO

My understanding is that the 750e and 50e are both model year 2024 vehicles. Not sure why you are thinking the 750e came out that much sooner than the 50e, we’re talking a few months max.

I was referring to the 50e as a unicorn because of its impressive combination of mpg and power in a larger SUV. From a practical standpoint it is a great vehicle.

Power yes, MPG, not necessary.

PHEV is about using electricity and gas. MPG only has meaningful if you don't use electricity because electricity isn't free. For 45e at least, if you don't charge the car and use it as a hybrid, it isn't as efficient as 40i of the same generation. BMW official numbers agree with real life data as well.

Now sure 50e has more efficient B58, but so as LCI 40i. I would say the apple to apple comparison on MPG, 40i will still win by the same margin. We don't have official MPG for 50e after useable HVB deplete yet. But we can easily estimate from member's trip computer reading.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

My understanding is that the 750e and 50e are both model year 2024 vehicles. Not sure why you are thinking the 750e came out that much sooner than the 50e, we’re talking a few months max.

From what I have seen it came out earlier in Europe, a few months puts it at almost a year, besides, the 50e has almost been out a year I said they were about the same age, never said the 750e was that much sooner.

In your efforts to keep responding to posts it seems like you forgot what originally posted and your message it getting muddled with the other stuff you are posting that may be interpreted to be incorrect. We know you chose the M60i because you were more comfortable with that engine, no need to go any further.

This discussion, at least my part of it, was not intended to be a which engine/drivetrain is better but rather to provide information on the engines, history, usage, etc.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by T3PO

�� the M60 engine is not in its first year of use, even though it is new to the X5 lineup.

The S68, which is in the M60, has been around for over a year. Thus time has undoubtedly allowed the assembly process to be refined, thereby reducing issues seen in earlier iterations of the engine.

Source: every manufacturer does this with production runs of parts.

Hopefully the S68 is beefed to the same or similar degree as the S58 where the pro drifters are running 1,000 HP on the stock short block and beating the absolute snot out of them.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

From what I have seen it came out earlier in Europe, a few months puts it at almost a year, besides, the 50e has almost been out a year I said they were about the same age, never said the 750e was that much sooner.

In your efforts to keep responding to posts it seems like you forgot what originally posted and your message it getting muddled with the other stuff you are posting that may be interpreted to be incorrect. We know you chose the M60i because you were more comfortable with that engine, no need to go any further.

This discussion, at least my part of it, was not intended to be a which engine/drivetrain is better but rather to provide information on the engines, history, usage, etc.

On the contrary it was yourself who interjected on my OP where for some reason you felt the need to correct my comment regarding the M60 when it was clear the reference was in response to the S68 motor based upon the comment I was replying to. Once that was cleared up you proceeded to double down and try to move the goal posts by saying that the S68 only came out 8 months before, not a year 🙄,yet all you managed to do was further validate my point. Whether the S68 was released 6 months, 8 months, 12 months or 5 years is irrelevant. Why? Because the S68 has to date faced more production runs as well as being implemented into 4 vehicles now, which was the whole point to begin with. Any ancillary points were simply to emphasize how a new motor can have issues and how the production process is/should be adjusted over time.

So what have we learned here:
- Make sure to use the engine name and not the model of the vehicle with said engine, this apparently is a point of confusion
- Using an estimation of 12 months is not accurate enough, you must use the precise timeframe, in this instance 6-8 months
- Apparently BMW is the only manufacturer in the world who does not make slight adjustments between production runs without first announcing said adjustments

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Power yes, MPG, not necessary.

PHEV is about using electricity and gas. MPG only has meaningful if you don't use electricity because electricity isn't free. For 45e at least, if you don't charge the car and use it as a hybrid, it isn't as efficient as 40i of the same generation. BMW official numbers agree with real life data as well.

Now sure 50e has more efficient B58, but so as LCI 40i. I would say the apple to apple comparison on MPG, 40i will still win by the same margin. We don't have official MPG for 50e after useable HVB deplete yet. But we can easily estimate from member's trip computer reading.

Whatever makes you feel better, apologies for not using MPG MPGe or whatever other terminology. Fact remains for everyday use and for those with a home charger the 50e is going to save you a lot of money on gas and allow you to have a faster car than the x40 when needed, given consistent use of the electric and hybrid modes.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

On the contrary it was yourself who interjected on my OP where for some reason you felt the need to correct my comment regarding the M60 when it was clear the reference was in response to the S68 motor based upon the comment I was replying to. Once that was cleared up you proceeded to double down and try to move the goal posts by saying that the S68 only came out 8 months before, not a year 🙄,yet all you managed to do was further validate my point. Whether the S68 was released 6 months, 8 months, 12 months or 5 years is irrelevant. Why? Because the S68 has to date faced more production runs as well as being implemented into 4 vehicles now, which was the whole point to begin with. Any ancillary points were simply to emphasize how a new motor can have issues and how the production process is/should be adjusted over time.

So what have we learned here:
- Make sure to use the engine name and not the model of the vehicle with said engine, this apparently is a point of confusion
- Using an estimation of 12 months is not accurate enough, you must use the precise timeframe, in this instance 6-8 months
- Apparently BMW is the only manufacturer in the world who does not make slight adjustments between production runs without first announcing said adjustments

LOL Hope that makes you feel better, revisionist history usually does.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

LOL Hope that makes you feel better, revisionist history usually does.

LOL says the guy who was trying to argue about a model year 23 engine coming out at the same time as a model year 24 one because they were only 8 months apart.

😂😂😂😂

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

LOL says the guy who was trying to argue about a model year 23 engine coming out at the same time as a model year 24 one because they were only 8 months apart.

��������

That is the funny part, I never said that. You keep making things up in your posts. That is okay though, from your short time here it is evident you will be one of those posters who will be ignored due to posting misinformation and will eventually just leave.

[T3PO]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Not exactly true but if that is what you want to believe that is fine. There is no indication that any changes have been made to the engine and it was only on the market 8 months prior to going into the G05.

Getting back to your original post, the engine in the 50e has been out for the same exact time.

Obviously we are discussing a few months and it makes no difference but as with any reason, you have to decide what is important to you when making a purchase. In this case it was the perceive safety in the M60i engine.

Apparently this post by you was simply a figment of my imagination?

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by T3PO

Whatever makes you feel better, apologies for not using MPG MPGe or whatever other terminology. Fact remains for everyday use and for those with a home charger the 50e is going to save you a lot of money on gas and allow you to have a faster car than the x40 when needed, given consistent use of the electric and hybrid modes.

You should have gone with the M60i if a faster vehicle was a priority.
Unless your electric is free there is not much in the way of actual savings with these current PHEVs.
There are several well done threads here on this forum that break down the actual costs and potential savings. Unfortunately for some there is actually no savings at all on electric.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by T3PO

Apparently this post by you was simply a figment of my imagination?

Perhaps your inability to read? That post is in regards to the S68 and the B58 TU2 engines coming out last year in the X7.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by T3PO

Whatever makes you feel better, apologies for not using MPG MPGe or whatever other terminology. Fact remains for everyday use and for those with a home charger the 50e is going to save you a lot of money on gas and allow you to have a faster car than the x40 when needed, given consistent use of the electric and hybrid modes.

That is completely not true blanket statements. It is not what I or any want to believe. It is data record. Whether Edrive operation is cheaper than gas is a function of electricity cost vs gas cost. I have a 45e for 1.5 years, with record of gas and electricity costshow it to you that $/mile for Cali resident is higher for Edrive simply because our electricity is expansive. We pay upward of $0.55 per kWh, and we are looking at a possible 12% increase in 2024.

Now mpge, please do some math on how bmw come up with that number, before believing it.