[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by ketrab

If they won't be adding lost kWh from the locked pool its garbage and I'm really questioning if I should go with 45e...Paying for battery pack that you can't even use.

The locked capacity is not garbage, it is necessary for the longevity of the lithium ion battery pack and every manufacturer leaves a portion of battery locked for the same purpose (including Tesla). The lower limit in US models on the usable capacity probably means 6-7 miles of electric range loss compared to European spec cars but you are still getting all the PHEV benefits including the federal tax credit, which effectively makes the 45e cheaper than a 40i for those who qualify for the rebate.

[ketrab]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

The locked capacity is not garbage, it is necessary for the longevity of the lithium ion battery pack and every manufacturer leaves a portion of battery locked for the same purpose (including Tesla). The lower limit in US models on the usable capacity probably means 6-7 miles of electric range loss compared to European spec cars but you are still getting all the PHEV benefits including the federal tax credit, which effectively makes the 45e cheaper than a 40i for those who qualify for the rebate.

but the question is, over time as battery degrades is the hit noticeable on the usable battery range or the locked one? Do you follow me?

If the degradation starts first on the locked portion then its fine but if its on the usable you'll notice it first and without technique to start adding kWh from locked its just poor engineering imho.

[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by ketrab

but the question is, over time as battery degrades is the hit noticeable on the usable battery range or the locked one? Do you follow me?

If the degradation starts first on the locked portion then its fine but if its on the usable you'll notice it first and without technique to start adding kWh from locked its just poor engineering imho.

You can see the degradation in some older/high mileage Teslas now and based on that data you will not see more than a few miles of range loss within the warranty period (8 years) for the 45e. Even with the modern EVs degradation is becoming less of a consideration as battery management know-how improves so I am not one bit concerned about degradation in a PHEV with a straight six turbo under the hood...

[ketrab]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

You can see the degradation in some older/high mileage Teslas now and based on that data you will not see more than a few miles of range loss within the warranty period (8 years) for the 45e. Even with the modern EVs degradation is becoming less of a consideration as battery management know-how improves so I am not one bit concerned about degradation in a PHEV with a straight six turbo under the hood...

Still doesn't tell me how they manage the extra 7kWh that you paid for?! Tesla is great because they let you pick the threshold level depending on your needs.

[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by ketrab

Still doesn't tell me how they manage the extra 7kWh that you paid for?! Tesla is great because they let you pick the threshold level depending on your needs.

Tesla limits the usable capacity as well, they just let you choose what percentage of the usable capacity you want to charge to. So when you charge your Tesla to 100% that only charges the usable capacity to 100%, not the entire battery pack. BMW gives you the same option (choose your charge level) too. Every manufacturer limits the usable capacity of the battery pack for the longevity of the lithium ion cells. Tesla no longer officially lists battery sizes but for example Audi e-Tron comes with a 95 kWh battery that has a usable capacity of 83.6 kWh. In theory the larger locked capacity means less degradation over time and faster charging time as you get closer 100% SoC. So that 7 kWh that you pay for but don't get any range for, serves you in other ways.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

So that 7 kWh that you pay for but don't get any range for, serves you in other ways.

thanks hank! So still trying to figure out the mechanism here ... are you saying that with the 17kWh BMW is holding 30% of the 24kWh in reserve thus a "100%" charge is really a 70% charge and that's ok because only using each cell at 70% of its maximum capacity puts less stress on the cell ... so the benefits would be slower degradation of capacity AND more longevity?

Overall I don't plan on the keep the car longer than 5 years so that's my time horizon consideration ...

[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

thanks hank! are you saying that with the 17kWh BMW is holding 30% of the 24kWh in reserve thus a "100%" charge is really a 70% charge and that's ok because only using each cell at 70% of its maximum capacity puts less stress on the cell ... so the benefits would be slower degradation of capacity AND more longevity?

Yes, that is exactly right. So far the Germans (e-Tron, 45e etc.) are playing it safe to ensure battery longevity since they are still learning about the lithium ion batteries. Audi for example just bumped the usable capacity for the e-Tron for the new model year. BMW offers a shorter battery warranty in Europe so they are ok giving a higher usable percentage vs the US with the longer battery warranty.

I personally like what Tesla is doing better i.e give the max possible usable capacity and tell the users to only use the 100% charge when driving long distance and charge at 90% or less on a daily basis. This way one has the range if needed but the 45e is a PHEV so it is not solely dependent on EV range to cover long distances on a single charge thus it makes sense that BMW is playing it safe with the conservative usable capacity in my opinion...

[jad03060]

BMW protects both ends of the battery capacity...neither letting you charge to full nor discharge to empty. So 100% is not fully charged, nor is zero fully discharged. The percentage shown is the useable amount, not the whole amount.

[biterror]

Originally Posted by jad03060

BMW protects both ends of the battery capacity...neither letting you charge to full nor discharge to empty. So 100% is not fully charged, nor is zero fully discharged. The percentage shown is the useable amount, not the whole amount.

Exactly.

[ketrab]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

Yes, that is exactly right. So far the Germans (e-Tron, 45e etc.) are playing it safe to ensure battery longevity since they are still learning about the lithium ion batteries.

What about i series? They could be so far ahead if they wouldn't drop this project. Its funny to see Germans trying to catch up with Tesla but unfortunately its over.

[ketrab]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

Tesla limits the usable capacity as well, they just let you choose what percentage of the usable capacity you want to charge to. So when you charge your Tesla to 100% that only charges the usable capacity to 100%, not the entire battery pack. BMW gives you the same option (choose your charge level) too. Every manufacturer limits the usable capacity of the battery pack for the longevity of the lithium ion cells. Tesla no longer officially lists battery sizes but for example Audi e-Tron comes with a 95 kWh battery that has a usable capacity of 83.6 kWh. In theory the larger locked capacity means less degradation over time and faster charging time as you get closer 100% SoC. So that 7 kWh that you pay for but don't get any range for, serves you in other ways.

That's not fully correct. Tesla does limit the bottom portion but not upper. If you say 100% its 100% thus the reason people do 90 or 80%.

Would be nice to have that capability with 45e...

[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by ketrab

That's not fully correct. Tesla does limit the bottom portion but not upper. If you say 100% its 100% thus the reason people do 90 or 80%.

I disagree, number of full charge to discharge cycles determines the life of a lithium ion battery thus no manufacturer will let the top end go unlimited. True that Tesla's locked capacity to total pack ratio is very low but they still lock at the top end too.

Elon Musk explains the reason for the recommended daily charge level being less than 100% as being able to use regen and be more efficient:

[ketrab]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

Elon Musk explains the reason for the recommended daily charge level being less than 100% as being able to use regen and be more efficient:

That I agree..

[jad03060]

FWIW, on the i3, if the battery is full, instead of regen, the computer will blend in the hydraulic brakes in a seamless manner, giving you the simulation of regen deceleration. I'm sure they could do the same on the X5, but I don't know if they do. It's fairly easy once the vehicle has some miles on it...on the i3, since you can generally drive it with one pedal, if it does need to activate the brakes automatically, you can generally hear it because there is often a little rust on the rotors from limited use. My driveway is fairly steep, so it will need to use the brakes instead of regen when I leave if the battery is 'full'. Those with more miles on their X5 might be able to tell, but since it does not really support single pedal driving like the BEV i3, some actual braking will probably keep the rotors clean, and thus, likely quiet.

FWIW, the regeneration on the i3 is strong enough so that the computer will turn the brake lights above a certain point.

[beegee227]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

Tesla limits the usable capacity as well, they just let you choose what percentage of the usable capacity you want to charge to. So when you charge your Tesla to 100% that only charges the usable capacity to 100%, not the entire battery pack. BMW gives you the same option (choose your charge level) too. Every manufacturer limits the usable capacity of the battery pack for the longevity of the lithium ion cells. Tesla no longer officially lists battery sizes but for example Audi e-Tron comes with a 95 kWh battery that has a usable capacity of 83.6 kWh. In theory the larger locked capacity means less degradation over time and faster charging time as you get closer 100% SoC. So that 7 kWh that you pay for but don't get any range for, serves you in other ways.

My G05 45e defaulted to 80% usable capacity. So are you saying that since BMW has (artificially) limited the US market to 70% already, it should be safe for us to go into settings and use 90% usable capacity (or even 100%) and still be in safe tolerances?

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by beegee227

My G05 45e defaulted to 80% usable capacity. So are you saying that since BMW has (artificially) limited the US market to 70% already, it should be safe for us to go into settings and use 90% usable capacity (or even 100%) and still be in safe tolerances?

where to begin... first, in the U.S., the usable capacity is 17kWh of the 24kWh battery (71%), which is set by BMWNA.

are you misunderstanding what BATTERY CONTROL is? BATTERY CONTROL does not determine usable capacity. It determines the battery charge level while the car is moving, not when plugged in (moodyhank82 missed this important distinction). with BATTERY CONTROL default at 80%, for example, you are telling the running car to charge the battery to 80% of 17kWh (13.6kWh). the reason why they gave us control of this particular setting is because the ICE uses more fuel during "mobile charging", and we can determine when it's best to utilize its efficiency (or let the car smarts do it while navigating in HYBRID ECO PRO or ADAPTIVE modes).

when using the plug-in charger, it always charges the battery to 100% (17kWh); there is no option to choose a different charge level**. what you may not completely understand is that you've been charging to 100% usable capacity this whole time when using your plug-in charger, and since it's only 71% of total capacity, it's completely safe.

**you may be able to choose your charge level while plugged in if your charger has that feature.

[beegee227]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

where to begin... first, in the U.S., the usable capacity is 17kWh of the 24kWh battery (71%), which is set by BMWNA.

are you misunderstanding what BATTERY CONTROL is? BATTERY CONTROL does not determine usable capacity. It determines the battery charge level while the car is moving, not when plugged in (moodyhank82 missed this important distinction). with BATTERY CONTROL default at 80%, for example, you are telling the running car to charge the battery to 80% of 17kWh (13.6kWh). the reason why they gave us control of this particular setting is because the ICE uses more fuel during "mobile charging", and we can determine when it's best to utilize its efficiency (or let the car smarts do it while navigating in HYBRID ECO PRO or ADAPTIVE modes).

when using the plug-in charger, it always charges the battery to 100% (17kWh); there is no option to choose a different charge level**. what you may not completely understand is that you've been charging to 100% usable capacity this whole time when using your plug-in charger, and since it's only 71% of total capacity, it's completely safe.

**you may be able to choose your charge level while plugged in if your charger has that feature.

thanks. I did a little more reading on this topic after I posted (before you replied) and you're correct. appreciate the clarification.

[menace33]

Hey guys, is that the same for EU-models? Are we also using 17kwh? I think not. I am charging my car through BMW wall unit and I have placed a meter before that unit. From empty to full it uses 24kwh

[biterror]

Originally Posted by menace33

Hey guys, is that the same for EU-models? Are we also using 17kwh? I think not. I am charging my car through BMW wall unit and I have placed a meter before that unit. From empty to full it uses 24kwh

It's 21.something here.. the rest is wasted in the charger (and battery). My BMW reports up to 26 kWh per charge.

[menace33]

Thanks for the reply. I must say that I am delighted with my hybrid. I never use gas in the city.

[javapro]

Originally Posted by biterror

It's 21.something here.. the rest is wasted in the charger (and battery). My BMW reports up to 26 kWh per charge.

How does “your BMW” report “up to 26 kWh”? Where do you see this number? As far as I know the only way to see how many kWh it takes to charge the hybrid battery from zero to full is to use a kWh meter.

[X5 45e]

Originally Posted by javapro

How does "your BMW" report "up to 26 kWh"? Where do you see this number? As far as I know the only way to see how many kWh it takes to charge the hybrid battery from zero to full is to use a kWh meter.

"My BMW" is the new app that will replace the connected drive app. Available in EU not yet in US (so for as you know your reply was correct).

It shows the electrice driven miles and kWh for each charge.

Yesterday (gisteren). I have driven almost 100 km electric. Leaving home 100% and charged 43% on a public charger on location. More than 60% highway 125 km/h on ACC.

BMW advices against the use of volt meters but you but some home charging systems will also show.