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      12-01-2021, 04:08 PM   #23
jad03060
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I've driven out of my garage (which stays about 50F in the winter, into -10F, and the ICE does NOT ever turn on unless it would under normal driving conditions:
- exceed the acceleration potential of the EV motor
- put it in sport mode
- the battery charge level drops enough
- manual shift mode, etc.

I haven't (yet) seen the warning that it cannot produce any heat, but others have. When you get that warning, you don't have to drive much before you start to get cabin heating.

Yes, there's a lot of waste heat when the ICE is running, but the X5 does not directly use that heat for any purposes that I've seen, nor, does it say anything about it in the user's manual or the tech training manual at the top of this forum in a sticky.
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      12-01-2021, 06:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad03060 View Post
I've driven out of my garage (which stays about 50F in the winter, into -10F, and the ICE does NOT ever turn on unless it would under normal driving conditions:
- exceed the acceleration potential of the EV motor
- put it in sport mode
- the battery charge level drops enough
- manual shift mode, etc.

I haven't (yet) seen the warning that it cannot produce any heat, but others have. When you get that warning, you don't have to drive much before you start to get cabin heating.

Yes, there's a lot of waste heat when the ICE is running, but the X5 does not directly use that heat for any purposes that I've seen, nor, does it say anything about it in the user's manual or the tech training manual at the top of this forum in a sticky.
Yeah, you likely wouldn't see the notice I mentioned nor would you see the ICE kick in to get the battery into preferred operating range. Once the battery is in range the ICE isn't used to heat the battery. It will regulate the temperature via the electrical heater and/or AC as needed.

If you parked the car outside in -10F and turned it on you should see your ICE kick on when it starts to get the HV battery to temperature then it will turn off and go purely EV. If the 45 e lacks this stuff the battery in the car will have a fairly short lifespan for people in climates that get very cold and very hot like I am.

In very cold temperatures Li-Ion batteries really struggle to deliver their rated voltages. You can see this if you take your iPhone out to 20F weather and notice how it gets really laggy? That's due to the CPU having to down clock to really low voltages since the battery is unable to deliver its normal peak output voltages. If the battery is very worn you likely would also see the phone randomly shut off. For your car it would be getting requests to run the electric heater which is very high wattage while also supporting drive train power which would be a heavy struggle. And the car isn't built such that it will just "reduce performance" to account for a battery being unable to deliver rated voltage.

The engine heat isn't covered in my manual either. My manual doesn't mention "REST" anywhere, but the attached photo is from this function working in my 530e (excuse the dust). It shocks me deeply if this is missing on the 45e as it would be extremely inefficient since the heat is literally wasted on the engine and is being vented out into the air while you drive. Obviously, it would use the electric heater and not the ICE if you're in EV mode or in hybrid mode with sufficient electrical charge...

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      12-01-2021, 07:23 PM   #25
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FOr a good portion of the winter of my first year of ownership...the X5 didn't see the inside of my garage, so was parked outside through most of the winter...it never turned the ICE on to provide cabin heat. My default is adaptive mode, which is basically hybrid with some additional smarts, but I didn't program that for a while, and I had it in EV mode at the beginning.

Yes, they could get heat from the engine when on, but from what I can tell, there is no heating directed at the batteries, nor engine heat into the cabin. The diagrams only show electrical heating for the cabin and none for the batteries.

If someone knows definitively otherwise, let us know, but nothing I've seen says it ever uses engine heat for anything.
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      12-01-2021, 08:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad03060 View Post
FOr a good portion of the winter of my first year of ownership...the X5 didn't see the inside of my garage, so was parked outside through most of the winter...it never turned the ICE on to provide cabin heat. My default is adaptive mode, which is basically hybrid with some additional smarts, but I didn't program that for a while, and I had it in EV mode at the beginning.

Yes, they could get heat from the engine when on, but from what I can tell, there is no heating directed at the batteries, nor engine heat into the cabin. The diagrams only show electrical heating for the cabin and none for the batteries.

If someone knows definitively otherwise, let us know, but nothing I've seen says it ever uses engine heat for anything.
I think I finally see where the confusion lies.

I'm not saying the ICE engine is used for heating the cabin generally. BMW PHEVs have an electrical HVAC system. Electrical heater and electrical AC compressor.

In the scenarios I described with the ICE kicking on to warm/cool the battery isn't for the cabin. It is for getting the HV battery itself within operating temperature range before the car puts a heavy load on the battery. Once the battery is with operating temperature range the ICE would drop off and the HV system would be used.

The ICE engine is only used for heating as a waste product recapture not as a primary source. As a result, you'd never see the ICE kick on just to heat the cabin. Nor would the car tell you in any capacity that it is using the ICE waste heat to reduce the load on the EV heater. It would simply do so if the engine is already warm.

In order to see the REST function as shows in my 530e you'd have to activate climate control after the car has been turned off, engine is warm from already running (such as Sport Mode or a flat HV battery), and the temperature is cold enough that heat is needed not cooling. Preferably with a flat HV battery as you'd feel heat coming into the cabin while the car tells you in iDrive that it has deactivated heating since the HV battery has no charge.

You're mistaking me as saying the car is using ICE heat as a primary heat source, that's not what I've been describing.

BMW doesn't really mention this anywhere from what I can tell. But if you test it as I described you'd likely have the exact same reality.

There are posts from X5 45e owners noting the same behavior I described as normal on the X5 45e as well in the winter.

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...10&postcount=5
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      12-01-2021, 10:59 PM   #27
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If your batteries are low when you start the vehicle, the computer will turn the ICE on if it's cold enough. That will charge the batteries up to a certain level. THe act of charging the batteries will warm them some. That's to protect the batteries, and once they're at a certain level, it may shut off again, depending.

There is no connection from the heat generated from the engine and the cabin in the 45e.

Last edited by jad03060; 12-01-2021 at 11:12 PM..
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      12-07-2021, 10:07 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outack View Post
Thank you for the information. So in order to use full EV mode, below 10 degrees C, the engine will be forced to start and warm up to operating temp?
I can confirm this is not the case. I had the X5 45e last weekend and we had 0°C. I had it configured to use Electric mode as default driving mode. It did not start the engine when I took it for a quick drive to the bakery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outack View Post
Good to know. I drive about 45 miles to work, so the battery would likely be very low once I arrive. I'll look into the battery hold.
Bluntly, 45miles is too much for the 45e. Unless you are able to charge it at work I would not recommend buying it.

If your goal is to drive emission free you should look into an EV with higher range. If your goal is to drive with lower emissions/less fuel consumption, a Diesel engine might be the better option. I understand those are not common in the US. The issue is that in cold weather the battery range shrinks to ~30 miles. That's what I observed around 0°C. That's really from 100% down to 0% (zero miles range left). If you now set it to hold ~20% then the range decreases even further. Chances are high that you end up causing more CO2 emissions on your daily commute compared to a regular 40i (due to higher consumption because of weight).

Quote:
Originally Posted by electric2021 View Post
Yes. It won’t let you use EV only mode until the engine has been warmed up (it probably warms up the battery too).
See above. I was able to confirm this weekend that this is not the case. The car I drove was an X5 45e produced August 2021. It had latest software. Maybe that was added later?
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      12-07-2021, 12:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guw____ View Post
I can confirm this is not the case. I had the X5 45e last weekend and we had 0°C. I had it configured to use Electric mode as default driving mode. It did not start the engine when I took it for a quick drive to the bakery.
The limit is -10 C, not +10 C.
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      01-11-2022, 08:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad03060 View Post
If your batteries are low when you start the vehicle, the computer will turn the ICE on if it's cold enough. That will charge the batteries up to a certain level. THe act of charging the batteries will warm them some. That's to protect the batteries, and once they're at a certain level, it may shut off again, depending.

There is no connection from the heat generated from the engine and the cabin in the 45e.
Been pretty warm in Philly until now. Got into my car to drive it and the car temp read 27F. It was street parked outside all day. I ran preconditioning manually (not via a schedule) prior to getting into the car so the cabin was warm (without a scheduled time it will warm the cabin but not the battery). When I started driving the car let me know it had to warm the battery and ran the ICE. Once it ran for a short while I was allowed onto EV driving with a full battery.

My wife was kind enough to snap a picture of the Energy Flow screen at the time. The single Check Control notification showing was to let me know the battery was being warmed up.

Notice the reason it says the engine is running is due to the system demanding it to run, but the battery is fully charged and no power from the engine is being placed into the battery as is usually the case whenever the ICE is running on the PHEV.

But it sounds like the limits are different on the 45e for this to trigger? I wonder what the energy flow diagram shows in this case on the 45e.

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      02-15-2022, 01:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outack View Post
Does anyone have experience with the 45e in extreme cold weather?
I will be parking indoors at night, but outside for 12+ hours a day while at work. Any concerns about extreme winter weather and the plug in system?

We see below zero degrees F for weeks on end at times throughout the winter.
I’m in Toronto with a 530e pre-lci.
No issues in minus 12 to minus 20 weather.

The only thing worth mentioning is that preconditioning the car from dead cold will drain battery very fast at that temperature, noticeably faster than doing the same at around 0 degrees. All temps in Celsius btw.
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      02-15-2022, 05:07 PM   #32
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When you think about it, cooling a vehicle from say 90-degree F ambient to say 70-degrees F is a 20-degree delta, and with a/c, you can move more than one watt of energy with one watt going into the electric compressor (it's actually somewhere between 2-3 W output per 1 W input, so say at 3w that 20-degree delta is closer to only about a 7-degree one when heating 20/3).

But, say it's a really cold day out there where it's maybe zero F and you want that same 70-degrees F, your delta is now is 3.5x more, and you're using resistance heaters where one watt in gets you one watt of heat. IOW, it is to be expected that preconditioning will be a bigger hit to the battery than cooling.

It would be nice if they could use the a/c compressor as a heat pump like they do in the i3 (and maybe others, likely the new iX), but they chose not to add that complexity to it.
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      02-15-2022, 07:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outack View Post
Does anyone have experience with the 45e in extreme cold weather?
My 45e was in for service recently when the temperatures dropped to about -5F (-20C) and the dealer parked it outside and plugged it in to charge overnight when it was done.

When I picked it up the next morning, the battery was too cold and the car gave a warning and then turned on the ICE. In the instrument cluster it showed a low temperature icon under the Battery Gauge until the battery was up to temperature. It could propel on battery power at parking lot speed, but turned on the ICE otherwise until about 10min into the drive.

Nothing bad happened - it all drove fine under ICE power. However, the battery range was about 23mi instead of 33-35mi, which is what I normally see.

I thought if I pre-conditioned the car about 15min before picking it up (since it was on a charger), it would warm the cabin and the battery enough to be fine. But it apparently needed longer than that.

So - use your 45e in the frigid cold, it will handle it just fine. But if you leave it outside to soak in the cold overnight (or if it's really cold during the day and it sits for a long time), the battery may need time to warm itself up to temperature before it allows full electric drive.

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      02-16-2022, 02:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaTheBlue View Post
My 45e was in for service recently when the temperatures dropped to about -5F (-20C) and the dealer parked it outside and plugged it in to charge overnight when it was done.

When I picked it up the next morning, the battery was too cold and the car gave a warning and then turned on the ICE. In the instrument cluster it showed a low temperature icon under the Battery Gauge until the battery was up to temperature. It could propel on battery power at parking lot speed, but turned on the ICE otherwise until about 10min into the drive.

Nothing bad happened - it all drove fine under ICE power. However, the battery range was about 23mi instead of 33-35mi, which is what I normally see.

I thought if I pre-conditioned the car about 15min before picking it up (since it was on a charger), it would warm the cabin and the battery enough to be fine. But it apparently needed longer than that.

So - use your 45e in the frigid cold, it will handle it just fine. But if you leave it outside to soak in the cold overnight (or if it's really cold during the day and it sits for a long time), the battery may need time to warm itself up to temperature before it allows full electric drive.

It was simply too cold. It very depends on the temp of the battery cells. If they are warm enough, you’ll be able to drive EV only. Otherwise, it’ll show you the diagram you have on your picture and it will drive EV+ICE (check the power distribution, the EV part is still assisting and uses electricity heavily in that mode as well).

It happened to me that I was able to drive in EV only in -18C as well. The reason for that - the car has been charging for quite some time and it didn’t reach 100% when I jumped in the car

It’s worth noting that it’s not a problem for this car to stay overnight in minus 10without charging and then drive in EV only mode if the battery cells are warmer than -10.
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      02-16-2022, 02:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guw____ View Post
I can confirm this is not the case. I had the X5 45e last weekend and we had 0°C. I had it configured to use Electric mode as default driving mode. It did not start the engine when I took it for a quick drive to the bakery.



Bluntly, 45miles is too much for the 45e. Unless you are able to charge it at work I would not recommend buying it.

If your goal is to drive emission free you should look into an EV with higher range. If your goal is to drive with lower emissions/less fuel consumption, a Diesel engine might be the better option. I understand those are not common in the US. The issue is that in cold weather the battery range shrinks to ~30 miles. That's what I observed around 0°C. That's really from 100% down to 0% (zero miles range left). If you now set it to hold ~20% then the range decreases even further. Chances are high that you end up causing more CO2 emissions on your daily commute compared to a regular 40i (due to higher consumption because of weight).



See above. I was able to confirm this weekend that this is not the case. The car I drove was an X5 45e produced August 2021. It had latest software. Maybe that was added later?
I’d recommend to read carefully to what you respond it was minus 10 Celsius.

PS I wonder what’s the point of arguing with people who use this hybrid vehicle is sever conditions (constant cold, salt and other road shit)?
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      02-16-2022, 02:18 AM   #36
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If the vehicle will be parked outside in the cold, and, if your EVSE cable will go to it, you might want to try to have it just finish charging prior to your expected departure time. The act of charging the batteries will warm them some, giving you more range and the instant heat. You can play with the charging window settings to make that happen.
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      02-21-2022, 03:13 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by biterror View Post
Before I bought my 45e, my dealer claimed that the heat from the ICE is used to heat the cabin. It is really stupid if this is not the case because 60-70% of the energy in gasoline is wasted in heat.

Yesterday, I drove over 1000 km and the outside temperature was between -20 and -30 degrees C (-4...-22 F) for several hours. The charge in the HV battery was dropping slowly while I was driving in adaptive more. Average consumption was 8.5 l/100 km (27.7 mpg), average speed 84.5 km/h (52.5 mph). So the consumption was about 0.6 l/100 km higher than in warmer conditions.. but it's also winter now with snow on the roads and I had headwind yesterday, so I'm not sure if the higher consumption was caused by the need of generating electric power for the heater or by the other conditions.
I just talked to my dealer about the heating system again. They told me that the heater is using the same kind of water to air heater cell as in ICE cars. The electric heater heats the water - and it's the same water that also cools the ICE and there are some valves between the ICE and heater circulation. These guys are saying that when the ICE is warm, it is used to heat the cabin.

Did 1005 km on Saturday, average consumption was 7.64 l/100 km (30.8 mpg) in Nordic winter conditions.
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      02-24-2022, 12:31 PM   #38
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I have been driving my 45e in extreme cold now for a couple of months.

I spent a long weekend parked outdoors, no access to power, in -30 degrees F air temp. The car worked fine, powered almost exclusively by ICE, due to the constant cold. Most of the other nights recently are below also well below zero around here.

After I have spent time, I am confident that there is no need to worry about the extreme cold... It was designed to work just fine in these conditions.
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      02-24-2022, 12:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaTheBlue View Post
My 45e was in for service recently when the temperatures dropped to about -5F (-20C) and the dealer parked it outside and plugged it in to charge overnight when it was done.

When I picked it up the next morning, the battery was too cold and the car gave a warning and then turned on the ICE. In the instrument cluster it showed a low temperature icon under the Battery Gauge until the battery was up to temperature. It could propel on battery power at parking lot speed, but turned on the ICE otherwise until about 10min into the drive.

Nothing bad happened - it all drove fine under ICE power. However, the battery range was about 23mi instead of 33-35mi, which is what I normally see.

I thought if I pre-conditioned the car about 15min before picking it up (since it was on a charger), it would warm the cabin and the battery enough to be fine. But it apparently needed longer than that.

So - use your 45e in the frigid cold, it will handle it just fine. But if you leave it outside to soak in the cold overnight (or if it's really cold during the day and it sits for a long time), the battery may need time to warm itself up to temperature before it allows full electric drive.

Thanks for sharing. This confirms what I mentioned earlier in this thread that the 45e and the 530e work the same in this regard and that that ICE heats the battery in some capacity to get it up to operating temperature when started too cold. Even if the battery is fully charged and hooked to a charger.

It was explained that this isn't possible on the 45e and the process I explained, and you experienced, wouldn't be possible as the battery can only be heated by charging. But you can't charge a fully charged Lithium Ion battery without introducing the risk of thermal runaway. So the ICE is doing something other than charging the HV battery to heat it up.

I don't know how it heats it though since both vehicles only have refrigerant cooling lines going to the battery, but perhaps it runs the AC in reverse
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      02-24-2022, 05:32 PM   #40
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When the ICE is running, since the 45e doesn't have an alternator, it does use the EV motor as a generator, and that can then power any of the 12vdc electrical components from the DC-DC converter, even if it doesn't need to be charging the HV batteries in the process.
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      03-27-2022, 02:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electric2021 View Post
I’d recommend to read carefully to what you respond it was minus 10 Celsius.
That happens when things get lost in translation. For me "below 10 degrees C" means <10°C.
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      12-23-2022, 06:12 PM   #42
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Notice there is a single coolant circulation into the radiator which on the other end flows there multiple water to water heat exchangers- the AC condenser, the Battery coolant circuit, the intercooler on the IC engine. Somewhere in there it must be used for interior heating as well. Even when not running the IC after some time you can see the coolant temp gauge is warm. I'm sure it so the oil and water in the IC is 'ready to go' when called upon to run.
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      12-23-2022, 08:59 PM   #43
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-2 degrees F here in Chicago today. Car was parked outside overnight and when I went to turn it on, the ICE started. When I tried to force it into EV mode by pressing the electric drive mode button, I got a message that "system conditions" prevented EV mode. As I drove a bit, I could get a little EV action when accwlerating, but not much. ICE would reengage above about 5mph.
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      02-20-2024, 09:04 PM   #44
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In Lake Placid and it got really cold overnight- approaching zero Fahrenheit. In the morning I could not engage electric mode - the weird part was that there was no message whatsoever- just like the button did not work. Car started in hybrid and pushing electric button did nothing. After a few minutes I was able able to engage electric and all was well after that. Dumb that there is no message to tell you it’s too cold.
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