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      08-20-2019, 07:38 PM   #1
SHARMAATL
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BMW Potentially moving to subscription/over the air purchase for features

So, I think by now we have all heard the stupidity of BMW moving towards a yearly subscription fee for Apple Carplay ($80 p/year). Well, looks like BMW might be copying the Tesla route of already building in features and just keeping them locked until we purchase over the air. I think this is ridiculous.

Also, as someone who leases vehicles, I'm not really sure how this potential move from the company would apply to leased vehicles. Hopefully, it's at the very least one of those things where, if you didn't buy a certain feature during your build, you could then add it through software update alone later. Still, this type of business model concerns me.

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      08-20-2019, 07:46 PM   #2
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No doubt that's in the plan. I've already heard they are working on selling Dash layouts and Active Sound enhancements. All through the Connected Drive store. Yippee!
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      08-20-2019, 08:00 PM   #3
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Many different companies/sectors are moving towards subscription based services/features. In a way it makes sense if it keeps initial price of the product down and then each user can select the features they want. That said, they are probably looking at it as a continuing revenue stream rather than making vehicles less expensive to purchase.
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      08-20-2019, 08:20 PM   #4
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So the video highlights high beam assistance. My order was 11/18 so I simply do not remember if I had to pay more for auto high beams of my lasers.

This adds some to the mystery where some report that as a result of getting 7/2019.39 they no longer have auto high beams. That is fertile ground for a good conspiracy theory.

But to the main point since we were promised OTA upgrades prior to purchase that would be no unsettling thing to push out $90K and have to pay for features that were previously promised.
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      08-20-2019, 08:48 PM   #5
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In the past few years, there has been a move for software to move to a subscription service. It's been around, in effect, for a long time. Originally software was free, and you would lease the machines. Then you could buy machines, but you had to pay for software support.

Then when the PC came out, you could "buy" software, but as the software evolved, you had to buy the next version to get the new features.

All of these ways of selling computers acknowledged that you need a constant stream of money to keep software working and improve it.

Several years ago Microsoft moved all of their development tools to a subscription basis... $10K for initial buy-in then $2500 a year after that. It worked are really well for Microsoft and for developers because you no longer had to figure out what tools to buy, you had access to them all. Now they are moving their end-user software to a subscription basis.

Adobe to moved to a 100% subscription basis a few years ago. A lot of talking heads said, and even customers said it would be the end of Adobe; who would rent software they used to buy? It turned out quite well for Adobe.

You can't "buy" soft or firmware. It continually needs fixes and upgrades. It takes a constants stream of money to do that. You either have to figure out some way to get people to buy upgrades and live with the nightmare of lots of different versions in the field or do a subscription service. So far the subscription service works out best not only for the company but for the users too. It lets the company focus constant software fixes and improvement rather than trying figure features that will convince people to buy a new release.

Right now, the main problem that I think BMW has is that they haven't quite figured out the over-the-air software update thing. Once they do, I think most of the issues we have seen start to go away.... or all the late model BMW's will turn into bricks all at once on the same day
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      08-20-2019, 08:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
This adds some to the mystery where some report that as a result of getting 7/2019.39 they no longer have auto high beams. That is fertile ground for a good conspiracy theory.
I think you are on to something here.

Auto high beams as a subscription or add-on is silly to me, as I think that's a basic luxury car feature. Heck, even our F-150 has auto high beams.
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      08-21-2019, 02:42 AM   #7
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Porsche is doing the same.

For me, the really interesting angle would be if they let you re-map the ECU for say track days or if you were planning on a fun day in the mountains. It wouldn't invalidate the warranty but it would unlock X more horsepower. More relevant to a 911 than an X5...
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      08-21-2019, 01:35 PM   #8
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The silver lining could be if you're ordered an option thinking you'd like to have it but in reality isn't what you expected, you can cancel your subcription and not have an option that isn't worth anything to you. For example, night vision. I really think it's a cool option and I'm on the fence about adding it to my order. Could be I get it, realize I never use it, now I can save some money and drop that option from my subscription.
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      08-21-2019, 04:34 PM   #9
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I can’t imagine that the subscription model would apply to things like night vision, which are largely hardware dependent.

It seems more likely and suitable to things like the example in the video—high beam assist—which are the function of software and coding. Buying the option now, if you have the right headlights, just adds the coding to make it work, which is what it seems the subscription would do.

I think it is interesting, as long as they don’t nickel and dime us too much.

Curious too about what else could be enabled this way.
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      08-26-2019, 03:39 AM   #10
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Subscription of features within a vehicle - OK for certain things that you may or may not use, depending on what you would like to use. As long as cost is not too expensive, or it will lead to paying to have the hardware as we currently do (the cost of the vehicle upfront that came with the features you'd selected as options) and then added cost through the lifetime ownership to use the hardware you've already paid for through software coded release of it.

Roll forward a few years, how about this for a potential scenario (not just BMW):

Dealer: Thank you for buying the vehicle! We'd like to add your subscription services now and need your continuous payment authorisation to proceed before we can hand over the vehicle to you.

You: Surely I can pay when I need the feature? Why is continuous payment needed now before I get the car?

Dealer: Oh, were you not clear on how the subscription service works - it was in the contract documents you signed at order placement - even the unlock/lock feature is a subscription service, charged at £5/€5/$5 every time you use it? So continuous authorisation is needed for this?

You: What? No way, this should have been crystal clear in the description of this to me - no other vehicles have had this in the past! So it's a £20/€20/$20 per day charge just to go one trip?

Dealer: Well, no, it will be more depending on what else you do beyond unlocking and locking the vehicle.....

You: What do you mean, depends on what else.... What else are you talking about?

Dealer: Well, if you start the car, that's another £5/€5/$5 charge, same for stopping it. And same for turning on the ventilation system, heated/cooling on the seats, the radio, the lights, turn signals, in fact anything you touch will be charged for.... That's in additional to using other features that have the higher charges, like adding your smartphone to Bluetooth. You really should have read the small print on this section on your order docs, it was all their for your info, before you signed it. Your committed now.....



A bit far fetched, but where would subscription type services actually stop in future?
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      08-26-2019, 08:36 AM   #11
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I think, over time, subscription services will cover just about almost everything accessible via iDrive, or whatever screen console the car uses. Eventually, they may include performance features.

Even now, when you lease a car, you are, in effect, subscribing to a service that provides a certain number of miles of operation.

Just about everything in cars today is driven by software. One of the things that the software industry is beginning to figure out is that you can't really "buy" software. Software products need a constant stream of money coming into the manufacturer to keep it fixed and updated. In the past software tried to entice people to buy a new version to get new features. But they found they couldn't get enough of their base to do that and the cost of supporting multiple versions of their software was overwhelming them.

Lots of smartphone app's already work this way. Adobe, Microsoft, and many others are converting to a subscription basis as will the car companies.

What I'm curious to see is if BMW and other car companies will allow third parties to develop apps for their platform.
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      08-26-2019, 11:10 PM   #12
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BMW is having some financial challenges. New CEO and work is being done to increase profits. Can’t say I am surprised they are trying this, but I think it is a terrible strategy.

Feature wise even Kia is catching up to them. The Teluride/Palasade (Hyundai) are feature rich. They aren’t an X5, but they offer a heck of a value. Genesis will follow soon.

With all of the bugs in my X5, no way I will pay them for anything iDrive. I have the July release and it crashed today. Later I received the driver assistance error (new look in .39) and later I got some wacky voice control message.

The idiots that can’t fix iDrive want to charge for software features? Great strategy.
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      08-26-2019, 11:45 PM   #13
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Whats funny is the carplay that i supposedly have for free for some time has never worked right from the day i bought the car so i sure as hell am not going to renew. I have a 19 colorado with most of the same features and they all work. X5 50i is a fun car to drive but the whole software package is a joke and until they get what i paid 110k+ for working im not giving them a dime. I am hoping to update in sometime in 2020. Bought the car in 2018.
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      08-27-2019, 02:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magna6882 View Post
Whats funny is the carplay that i supposedly have for free for some time has never worked right from the day i bought the car so i sure as hell am not going to renew. I have a 19 colorado with most of the same features and they all work. X5 50i is a fun car to drive but the whole software package is a joke and until they get what i paid 110k+ for working im not giving them a dime. I am hoping to update in sometime in 2020. Bought the car in 2018.
Does your other car (19 Colorado ? ) has the same "wireless" car play like x5? Let's be fair here and compare apples to apples. There is an easy workaround to all these X5 CarPlay issues via toggling WiFi ON / OFF. It's not as bad as everyone is portraying here, I speak from my own experience.
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      08-27-2019, 04:08 PM   #15
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Can anybody tell me what BMW does annually to justify $80/year for Apple CarPlay?

Seriously - Apple develops the upgrades to CarPlay and the phone delivers the experience via the the BMW's wifi/screen. The capability to support this on the BMW-side is static and paid for. It doesn't change year over year. What am I paying for?

It would be like my TV manufacturer trying to charge me an annual subscription for the built in wifi capability that allows data to be transmitted by miscellaneous 3rd party devices, to my TV.
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      08-27-2019, 04:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumpydog View Post
Seriously - Apple develops the upgrades to CarPlay and the phone delivers the experience via the the BMW's wifi/screen. The capability to support this on the BMW-side is static and paid for. It doesn't change year over year. What am I paying for?.
I could be wrong but my understanding is that the interface into iDrive is written by BMW and needs to be maintained with each upgrade to iOS. I'm sure someone has more info or can correct that.
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      08-27-2019, 04:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleBoy View Post
I could be wrong but my understanding is that the interface into iDrive is written by BMW and needs to be maintained with each upgrade to iOS. I'm sure someone has more info or can correct that.
Nah... IOS13 (beta) works just fine with no changes by BMW. When Apple releases the public version of IOS13, BMW won't need to make any changes to iDrive7 for it to work.

Can you imagine if Apple had to depend of Auto manufacturers to role out upgrades to support their new CarPlay features?

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      08-27-2019, 04:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by lumpydog View Post
Nah... IOS13 (beta) works just fine with no changes by BMW. When Apple releases the public version of IOS13, BMW won't need to make any changes to iDrive7 for it to work.

Can you imagine if Apple had to depend of Auto manufacturers to role out upgrades to support their new CarPlay features?

You could be correct, I was under the impression that BMW wrote and supports the WiFi interface and not Apple.
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      08-27-2019, 07:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleBoy View Post
You could be correct, I was under the impression that BMW wrote and supports the WiFi interface and not Apple.
Well, sure - BMW included the wifi hardware interface and developed it to communicate with the iPhone - to Apple's specifications. But, BMW won't need to do anything more. You click "CarPlay" and the iPhone is driving the screen at that point. Kind of like changing the "source" on your TV to the DVD player or Apple TV.

Like using Apple TV - it's just another device that drives the experience on a TV screen (vs a car's LCD screen). HDMI or Wifi... it's just a data transfer standard that is static. Show me a TV manufacturer that's trying to charge you $80/year to use your Apple TV...

BMW is ripping off its customers. $80/year... I'll ask again. What does BMW do to justify the additional charge? What value are they adding each year? Apple is doing the work and they give us the IOS updates free.

Last edited by lumpydog; 08-27-2019 at 08:00 PM.. Reason: typo
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      08-27-2019, 08:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumpydog View Post
Well, sure - BMW included the wifi hardware interface and developed it to communicate with the iPhone - to Apple's specifications. But, BMW won't need to do anything more. You click "CarPlay" and the iPhone is driving the screen at that point. Kind of like changing the "source" on your TV to the DVD player or Apple TV.

Like using Apple TV - it's just another device that drives the experience on a TV screen (vs a car's LCD screen). HDMI or Wifi... it's just a data transfer standard that is static. Show me a TV manufacturer that's trying to charge you $80/year to use your Apple TV...

BMW is ripping off its customers. $80/year... I'll ask again. What does BMW do to justify the additional charge? What value are they adding each year? Apple is doing the work and they give us the IOS updates free.
The bigger question is why bother charging the $80 a year on a 75K car? If that fee costs you just a couple of sales it isn’t worth it.
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      08-27-2019, 11:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinV View Post
Does your other car (19 Colorado ? ) has the same "wireless" car play like x5? Let's be fair here and compare apples to apples. There is an easy workaround to all these X5 CarPlay issues via toggling WiFi ON / OFF. It's not as bad as everyone is portraying here, I speak from my own experience.
In all honesty not sure what the truck does because it just does it. If i am listening to pandora and i get into the truck pandora comes out of the speakers. If i touch the touch screen
i can do whatever i need. sometimes phones plugged in to get charged but mostly its in my pocket.
I have never had to re-boot the truck
X5 needs rebooting every couple weeks due to loss of audio,dash locks up and most safety features dont work.
I am not trying to knock the car as its fun to drive and being an old guy don't really use the tech or the audio and would buy again. I just dont like being lied to and then the lie followed up with more lies and bs.
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