[Elle BMW]

Hi all I have a 2022 X5, that I'm thinking of trading in for a LCI 50e PHEV. I have an I4 so I know a bit about electric driving by I can't wrap my head around the hybrid.

So let say I'm on a long road trip, 1500 miles or so. Say I get 530 miles out of a full tank from my X5, what range am I going to get, approximately, out of a full tank of gas using the Hybrid mode on a 50e?

Does that make sense? I use the X5 for my long trips cause I don't want the hassle of waiting for charging and I it's just much more comfy for the long trips.

Any help is appreciated.

[Madsen203]

500+ mile range means you’re likely traveling at 70mph. That’s 7 hours of straight driving between stops. Is an additional 30 minutes of driving worth $10-20k in cost of new car? I can barely make it 2-3 hours without a short break or to take a leak. Sounds like what you need is an airplane.

[modesa]

You'll get less range because the 45e/50e has a smaller tank, 18.2 gal v. 22 gal for the 40i.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...45572&id=46248

EPA says the 45e has a 400 mile range which is also what the display on my 45e says with a full charge and a full tank. The 50e has a bigger battery so maybe you'll get 10 extra miles of range on the LCI.

[RetSurfer]

I bought the 50e because over 90% of what I would drive in a year is under 30 miles a day.

Works perfect for me.

I’m not really concerned about the handful of long distance drives I make a year.

[Elle BMW]

Originally Posted by Madsen203

500+ mile range means you’re likely traveling at 70mph. That’s 7 hours of straight driving between stops. Is an additional 30 minutes of driving worth $10-20k in cost of new car? I can barely make it 2-3 hours without a short break or to take a leak. Sounds like what you need is an airplane.

I'm trying very hard to justify that, yes it is worth it, lol

[MikeX521]

Originally Posted by RetSurfer

I bought the 50e because over 90% of what I would drive in a year is under 30 miles a day.

Works perfect for me.

I’m not really concerned about the handful of long distance drives I make a year.

Me too. I think this is the driving factor for anyone purchasing a 50e over a 40i. If your daily commute is 40 miles or less and you can charge at night. Otherwise, you will save more and be more efficient with the 40i.

[ScaldedDog]

Lots of folks report getting 28mpg on the 45e, and I've seen that in a day running around CO in sport mode. If you run it down to 2g remaining, you'll get about 450 miles on a tank, with plenty of cushion.

Mark

[Crusje]

Just spend your money since you already want to upgrade after 1 year and looking for reasons to do it.

[Madsen203]

The cost delta for the E version doesn’t have a gold ROI. $6k in future dollars is like 8 years of fuel costs depending on current gas costs.

I am considering E for 2 reasons: 1 I like the E driving experience but for longer trips, non-Tesla charging infrastructure is weak. 2. I feel like the engine and components would last a LONG time if only ram during weekends or long trips as opposed to daily. Some of my daily driving would never get the motor and emissions equipment up to temperature which means earlier failures.

I’m curious how long the e-Drive Beltane tensioners last used on a regular basis. Access to them doesn’t seem easy and replacement is likely the cost of any fuel savings had during its former use. Timing belts last 100k ish and this belt takes considerably more torque - I wonder if it’s like a CVT belt. Those also have a limited lifespan.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Madsen203

The cost delta for the E version doesn’t have a gold ROI. $6k in future dollars is like 8 years of fuel costs depending on current gas costs.

I am considering E for 2 reasons: 1 I like the E driving experience but for longer trips, non-Tesla charging infrastructure is weak. 2. I feel like the engine and components would last a LONG time if only ram during weekends or long trips as opposed to daily. Some of my daily driving would never get the motor and emissions equipment up to temperature which means earlier failures.

I’m curious how long the e-Drive Beltane tensioners last used on a regular basis. Access to them doesn’t seem easy and replacement is likely the cost of any fuel savings had during its former use. Timing belts last 100k ish and this belt takes considerably more torque - I wonder if it’s like a CVT belt. Those also have a limited lifespan.

We are in the say area, so fuel cost is the same. $6K is much less than 8 year of gas. 91 is $4.5. $6k => 1333 gal. 40i/45e average to 22MPG?? => 30k miles. Average to 2.5-3 years of typical mile in our area.

What is eDrive belt tensioner?? There is no such a dedicated belt or tensioner for the eDrive power chain. eDrive motor is in the transmission, directly driving gears with clutch. If this mean the serpentine tensiioner, it is in the front of the engine. Replacement is very simple just like any other engine. They don't go for 100K miles tho, maybe 60-70K.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Elle BMW

Hi all I have a 2022 X5, that I'm thinking of trading in for a LCI 50e PHEV. I have an I4 so I know a bit about electric driving by I can't wrap my head around the hybrid.

So let say I'm on a long road trip, 1500 miles or so. Say I get 530 miles out of a full tank from my X5, what range am I going to get, approximately, out of a full tank of gas using the Hybrid mode on a 50e?

Does that make sense? I use the X5 for my long trips cause I don't want the hassle of waiting for charging and I it's just much more comfy for the long trips.

Any help is appreciated.

If long road trip is your primary use, then I don't think 45e or 50e make sense at all. It is less efficient than 40i from weight and gear ratio point of view. Further more going from 45e to 50e, at most you get another 10 miles more range. 22->24 upgrade, difference will be $15K (MSRP diff + lost of 7500) + 2 years depreciation of 22. Easily $35K total. Logically, no it doesn't make sense. But when people buy 80K car, it is never about logical tho. If you need a push from us to upgrade, I will say go for it if money is not an issue.

[fan25]

If you plan to trade in for a 50e and use it not only for road trip, but also for your daily drive less than 40miles, then go for it.

However you already have an i4 so I assume this is your daily car?

In that case, 50e for long road trip only is not the best choice, because it has significantly shorter range compared to 40i, due to smaller tank. Yes the mpg is better, but the difference is minor because B58 is already a crazily good engine regarding mpg.

[jad03060]

I know that on my 45e, on a fully loaded vehicle on a hot summer road trip of over 2000-miles with little chance to recharge, running about 75-mph indicated, I go over 500-miles per tank, and 28-mpg. Now, running around the city without recharging will be likely worse than the 40i, but not by all that much, as the stopping will produce some regeneration, and you'll still get some boost from the EV motor. Do that with some charge, and it will beat the 40i in the city.

Drag goes up exponentially, so a little increase in speed means lots more drag.

[Elle BMW]

Originally Posted by Crusje

Just spend your money since you already want to upgrade after 1 year and looking for reasons to do it.

I do regret not buying a hybrid in the first place, so yea, Probably will just do it.

[Elle BMW]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

If long road trip is your primary use, then I don't think 45e or 50e make sense at all. It is less efficient than 40i from weight and gear ratio point of view. Further more going from 45e to 50e, at most you get another 10 miles more range. 22->24 upgrade, difference will be $15K (MSRP diff + lost of 7500) + 2 years depreciation of 22. Easily $35K total. Logically, no it doesn't make sense. But when people buy 80K car, it is never about logical tho. If you need a push from us to upgrade, I will say go for it if money is not an issue.

Well I didn't know how many more miles I might get out of it on a trip running in hybrid mode which I asked about the long trips. If is an extra 250 miles then thats worth it, 50, maybe not. But I could not wrap my head around it from the threads that were here.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Elle BMW

Well I didn't know how many more miles I might get out of it on a trip running in hybrid mode which I asked about the long trips. If is an extra 250 miles then thats worth it, 50, maybe not. But I could not wrap my head around it from the threads that were here.

But isn't it a easy estimation.
1. Same fuel tank, same engine family, heavier car tho. So ICE only portion will be the same as best. Let's call it the same.

2. EV range is 10 more in 50e vs 45e.

Total is 10 more, right? After all, energy is energy. If you put a black box on the car. 50e battery store extra 10 miles worth of energy. So it travel that much more.

500 miles in one tank and fully charge battery is very doable in 45e on long road trip. 50e will be ~10 more. If you expect 50e will do 600, then you will sure be disappointed.

[RetSurfer]

How much energy recovery should I expect driving 500 miles, in Hybrid, in Assisted Driving Plus, on the interstate?

Not much in hills other than overpasses

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by RetSurfer

How much energy recovery should I expect driving 500 miles, in Hybrid, in Assisted Driving Plus, on the interstate?

Not much in hills other than overpasses

But that is no different than 45e, right? Just because battery is bigger on 50e, doesn't mean it will regen more.

For 45e, the 28MPH highway driving with depleted battery, that people refer too (my experience as well), include all the regen we get on the drive already. We don't get that much regen in 45e on average terrain (with both up and downs). And the regen back to HVB also need to charge the 12V, which run AC, electrical, infotaiment ... So it is not like after driving 400 miles in ICE, HVB will go from "---" to full.

[modesa]

On most hybrids, the gas engine is either running on Atkinson cycle all the time, or more on Atkinson cycle than the same engine on the non-hybrid version. That's why the same engine makes less power in the hybrid drivetrain - it's trading off peak power for overall efficiency, while the electric motors make up the lost power when passing power is needed.

This is partly why the Camry hybrid gets 53 mpg *highway* vs 39 mpg *highway* for the non-hybrid, and has a significantly longer range, even though on the highway the electric half of the drivetrain isn't doing much.

I don't know for a fact that the BMW engine does this, but the 45e engine is down on power by quite a bit vs the regular gas version so it would make sense.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by modesa

On most hybrids, the gas engine is either running on Atkinson cycle all the time, or more on Atkinson cycle than the same engine on the non-hybrid version. That's why the same engine makes less power in the hybrid drivetrain - it's trading off peak power for overall efficiency, while the electric motors make up the lost power when passing power is needed.

This is partly why the Camry hybrid gets 53 mpg *highway* vs 39 mpg *highway* for the non-hybrid, and has a significantly longer range, even though on the highway the electric half of the drivetrain isn't doing much.

I don't know for a fact that the BMW engine does this, but the 45e engine is down on power by quite a bit vs the regular gas version so it would make sense.

I don't think Turbo engine can be in Akinson cycle. And I dont' think we cannot compare to Toyota hybrid. They are designed for efficiency. And Camry hybrid carry a what 1kWh battery for its purpose, maybe 30ish lb . 45e carries a 24kWh battery, which is 800lb. If you don't charge the battery and run it as normal hybrid, you don't nearly need 24kWh, so you are carrying easily 700lb of dead weight, which reduce efficiency as well.

I have been saying this since I got 45e based on usage experience. If you don't plan to charge the car, and plan to use it as normal hybrid, you might as well get 40i. The 45e hybrid advantage cannot over come the 800lb extra weight.

[modesa]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

I don't think Turbo engine can be in Akinson cycle. And I dont' think we cannot compare to Toyota hybrid. They are designed for efficiency. And Camry hybrid carry a what 1kWh battery for its purpose, maybe 30ish lb . 45e carries a 24kWh battery, which is 800lb. If you don't charge the battery and run it as normal hybrid, you don't nearly need 24kWh, so you are carrying easily 700lb of dead weight, which reduce efficiency as well.

Fair enough on the turbo part. The Toyota engines are in any case not "true" Atkinson cycle engines, the more correct description is "Miller cycle without forced induction", in which case the BMW would be...just Miller cycle? But if you are running steady state off-off boost, negative manifold pressure, I think the effect would be similar to a Miller cycle, you just lose it when the boost kicks in. The extra weight of the battery doesn't play a huge role in highway efficiency.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by modesa

Fair enough on the turbo part. The Toyota engines are in any case not "true" Atkinson cycle engines, the more correct description is "Miller cycle without forced induction", in which case the BMW would be...just Miller cycle? But if you are running steady state off-off boost, negative manifold pressure, I think the effect would be similar to a Miller cycle, you just lose it when the boost kicks in. The extra weight of the battery doesn't play a huge role in highway efficiency.

The weight argument for highway drive is good. I agree.

For turbo engine, the charge pipe is for sure negative pressure when RPM is low. But I think these so called low boost turbo engine, the turbo get spool up very fast, by the time you get to 1500rpm, you get positive pressure in charge pipe. The throttle body is open 100% all the time in B58, so I guess manifold pressure and charge pipe pressure will be similar enough

As for why 45e engine makes less power. I have this wild guess. If you compare 45e vs 40i gear ratio, 40i is shorter from 1st to 5th. This helps 40i in acceleration. For 45e to even come close to 40i when EV is not available, it needs torque available at lower end. And 45e turn is to read max torque sooner then 40i. typically this type of tuning result in torque drop off at higher RPM, thus lower max power.

On the top end, 40i has taller ratio at 7th and 8th. 40i will run at lower RPM cruising at 8th gear, so more efficient. And 45e needs shorter 7th ane 8th due to the weight.

Purely trying to give this an engineering guess. More likely, BMW detune 45e so that it doesn't hamper sales of 40i and 50i. But I guess only BMW knows the real reason.