[reli]

Originally Posted by scottomfg

Since no one else is saying it, I have to: the Model Y is hands down one of the ugliest cars on the road. It gives the first gen Leaf/Versa a run for its money. The proportions are just all wrong and looks like the designers just gave up on it.

haha it grew on me but took a while but yes I know what you mean also feels like a extended volkswagen beetle?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by GS2019

Excellent comparisons - thanks. My family was saying that I should go with a Tesla Model Y (similar pricing to X5) as gas prices are increasing. but I agree that Tesla does not give you all the luxury as X5 especially with the options we can add to X5.

I think it depends on how long you plan to keep it:

3-5 years is probably the max I'd plan on owning an ICE that I had to sell (leasing is obvs different).

I have a feeling that as the ICE supply chains begin to contract (like 200mm chips!), and the oil refineries start getting lower demand, things are going to change in a hurry in the ICE used car market ...

It really doesn't matter whether consumers want BEVs or not - in a limited number of years it's all they'll be able to buy. The US is 16% of BMW's global sales - BMW isn't going to keep making ICE for a tiny market share (and probably half of that 16% is California sooo...) and once Tesla's German factory starts pumping out 10,000 vehicles / week with 10 hour build times (BMW=30 hours) - and so do 5 major Chinese brands (like Geely which is already here with Polestar) - most legacy MFRs will be lucky if they don't go bankrupt.

[45e21]

Originally Posted by scottomfg

Since no one else is saying it, I have to: the Model Y is hands down one of the ugliest cars on the road. It gives the first gen Leaf/Versa a run for its money. The proportions are just all wrong and looks like the designers just gave up on it.

Strange you mentioned it - every time my wife sees a Tesla, that’s exactly her comment- “such an ugly car, looks like it’s missing something.”

[Wait What?]

Originally Posted by scottomfg

Since no one else is saying it, I have to: the Model Y is hands down one of the ugliest cars on the road. It gives the first gen Leaf/Versa a run for its money. The proportions are just all wrong and looks like the designers just gave up on it.

Totally agree: beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but IMHO the model S is the only Tesla that is eye-pleasing, at least from the outside.

[Flying Ace]

I'll just say the X5 won't all the sudden decide it wants to be a "targa" model on the highway....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insidee...flies-off/amp/

But BEV vs PHEV is a use case question only you can answer. For all other comparisons between the two cars, BMW hands down, all day everyday.

Seriously, Tesla owners are beta testers of a company that has been building cars of any volume for less than 10 years.

BMW...they have been doing it for generations. And the quality and engineering shows.

[jad03060]

I wanted the option of pulling a travel trailer, and a BEV just wasn't in the picture. Now, a European company demonstrated a trailer that had a built-in battery and drive system that essentially made an EV range not be degraded by pulling it, but that's not for sale, and not likely to be wide-spread, at least any time soon...that drive system also makes the trailer more expensive and complex, but can provide more on-site power, if you can arrive with it not discharged!

[kingmonkeyjr]

Just recently ordered the X5 45e after selling my G80 M3 for a big profit (12%). Well after being in California my whole life. Traffic is the worse it's ever been, gas is high $4 low $5's, and just finishing up my oversized solar install I figured I give one of these a shot. Haven't received the car but it's coming next month. I just put down an order for the Model X for my wife. She is currently driving the X7 40i which has been amazing but she's just around town and filling up once a week is the drag. Unless they make a PHEV version of the X7 we will most likely be letting it go for the Model X. X5 45e and Model X is a damn good garage pair if you ask me. Especially here in CA.

[GS2019]

Originally Posted by kingmonkeyjr

Just recently ordered the X5 45e after selling my G80 M3 for a big profit (12%). Well after being in California my whole life. Traffic is the worse it's ever been, gas is high $4 low $5's, and just finishing up my oversized solar install I figured I give one of these a shot. Haven't received the car but it's coming next month. I just put down an order for the Model X for my wife. She is currently driving the X7 40i which has been amazing but she's just around town and filling up once a week is the drag. Unless they make a PHEV version of the X7 we will most likely be letting it go for the Model X. X5 45e and Model X is a damn good garage pair if you ask me. Especially here in CA.

Oh Wow.. Congrats man. I think Model X and X5 45e will make a damn good pair. Hope it will fit your garage. I heard Model X and X5 are large to fit in a single two-car garage.

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by Wait What?

Totally agree: beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but IMHO the model S is the only Tesla that is eye-pleasing, at least from the outside.

Agreed that Model Y is not a good looking car. But for whatever reason I really like how the Model X looks.

I think I don't like the Model Y because it almost looks like a Model X was sitting out in the sun too long and then shrunk down and deformed into something ugly.

[Wait What?]

Originally Posted by YuicyYumboYack

I think I don't like the Model Y because it almost looks like a Model X was sitting out in the sun too long and then shrunk down and deformed into something ugly.

Oh man, you crack me up, I love the way you put it: for some reason it reminds me of how orcs were born in the Lord of the Rings ("Do you know how the Orcs first came to being? They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life")!!!

[GS2019]

Originally Posted by YuicyYumboYack

Agreed that Model Y is not a good looking car. But for whatever reason I really like how the Model X looks.

I think I don't like the Model Y because it almost looks like a Model X was sitting out in the sun too long and then shrunk down and deformed into something ugly.

You're so funny dude. Anyways great concept

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I think it depends on how long you plan to keep it:

3-5 years is probably the max I'd plan on owning an ICE that I had to sell (leasing is obvs different).

I have a feeling that as the ICE supply chains begin to contract (like 200mm chips!), and the oil refineries start getting lower demand, things are going to change in a hurry in the ICE used car market ...

It really doesn't matter whether consumers want BEVs or not - in a limited number of years it's all they'll be able to buy. The US is 16% of BMW's global sales - BMW isn't going to keep making ICE for a tiny market share (and probably half of that 16% is California sooo...) and once Tesla's German factory starts pumping out 10,000 vehicles / week with 10 hour build times (BMW=30 hours) - and so do 5 major Chinese brands (like Geely which is already here with Polestar) - most legacy MFRs will be lucky if they don't go bankrupt.

For many buyers like my wife who have been driving a BEV (Model Y) for almost a year I doubt she'll even buy a non BEV going forward (the initial leap is the hardest part). We felt we needed something with more space than the Model Y and considered the Model X, but then placed a deposit for the iX (I think we were one of the first) based mainly on the overall spec, and interior. Yeah, design is polarizing on the iX, kinda like Lexus.

I think the big three Germans are taking BEV seriously. FWIW, Tesla was able to code around their chip issues in 3 weeks - most likely because they don't use the super old chips used by others.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/elon-mu...ence-1.5626086

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by Wait What?

Oh man, you crack me up, I love the way you put it: for some reason it reminds me of how orcs were born in the Lord of the Rings ("Do you know how the Orcs first came to being? They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life")!!!

It was probably a batch of Model X's that didn't listen to Elon Musk and became evil

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by FCX5

For many buyers like my wife who have been driving a BEV (Model Y) for almost a year I doubt she'll even buy a non BEV going forward (the initial leap is the hardest part). We felt we needed something with more space than the Model Y and considered the Model X, but then placed a deposit for the iX (I think we were one of the first) based mainly on the overall spec, and interior. Yeah, design is polarizing on the iX, kinda like Lexus.

I think the big three Germans are taking BEV seriously. FWIW, Tesla was able to code around their chip issues in 3 weeks - most likely because they don't use the super old chips used by others.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/elon-mu...ence-1.5626086

Same as us, at the very least we won't ever be purchasing a full ICE vehicle again.

I think making the leap to BEV will be easier because we have a PHEV, though. We've been doing more weekend trips to places that are within a few hours driving distance, and the thought of having to stop for an hour or two to recharge doesn't sound appealing. With a PHEV for longer trips, though, a BEV would definitely work as an everyday car.

Either that or wait for battery technology and charge speeds to get better. I think the Ioniq 5 can charge to 80% in 18 minutes, so I'm hopeful it'll get to a point where it's not such a big deal soon.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by YuicyYumboYack

Same as us, at the very least we won't ever be purchasing a full ICE vehicle again.

I think making the leap to BEV will be easier because we have a PHEV, though. We've been doing more weekend trips to places that are within a few hours driving distance, and the thought of having to stop for an hour or two to recharge doesn't sound appealing. With a PHEV for longer trips, though, a BEV would definitely work as an everyday car.

Either that or wait for battery technology and charge speeds to get better. I think the Ioniq 5 can charge to 80% in 18 minutes, so I'm hopeful it'll get to a point where it's not such a big deal soon.

I recommend X5 45e as probably the best value in luxury mid size SUV right now.

[Axxlrod]

Originally Posted by YuicyYumboYack

I'm still having a hard time believing the yoke wheel is an improvement. I get it provides a better view for the instrument cluster and I'm always for makings things better, but the yoke honestly feels like a step backwards.

I've seen videos of it and comments about how you eventually get used to it, but it honestly looks like it could be dangerous in an emergency situation. A steering wheel in a mass produced car seems like the last thing that you should have to get used to. Also looks really annoying to use in situations where you're going slow and turning like a parking lot.

But who knows...I haven't tried it so maybe it's great.

Drove my buddy's new Model S Plaid last week. The steering yoke is strange. I liked the increased visibility it offers, but the steering ratio is too low; a 90 degree turn requires the driver to go hand over hand, which is difficult to do since it's not round. I predict a lawsuit over collisions being blamed on the yoke.

Now, the acceleration of the Plaid was unlike anything I've ever experienced before, and I've driven almost every exotic car there is. 0 - 0 in 1.9 pulls the skin on your face back. I'd say it's actually quite dangerous for a street vehicle.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Axxlrod

Drove my buddy's new Model S Plaid last week. The steering yoke is strange. I liked the increased visibility it offers, but the steering ratio is too low; a 90 degree turn requires the driver to go hand over hand, which is difficult to do since it's not round. I predict a lawsuit over collisions being blamed on the yoke.

Now, the acceleration of the Plaid was unlike anything I've ever experienced before, and I've driven almost every exotic car there is. 0 - 0 in 1.9 pulls the skin on your face back. I'd say it's actually quite dangerous for a street vehicle.

I haven't driven one but sat in a Plaid a couple of times now. As a passenger, it is insane when accelerating at any speed. But what surprised me was how quiet, spacious and comfortable the new interior is. However, the Yoke is a big mistake. I also think the Plaid overall stance and proportion look very nice to me.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I recommend X5 45e as probably the best value in luxury mid size SUV right now.

Absolutely, the 45e is a fantastic vehicle ... and I agree, probably the best (not even only value, that, but just the best) ...

Here's where I see problems coming in for today's PHEVs / BEVs: battery chemistry & weight.

Not to dunk on the whole fires thing (which really isn't a problem), but mass consumers aren't going to pile into BEVs until that goes away - the good news is, not only is iron phosphate (LFP) safe (you can puncture it with a screwdriver and it won't burn) but it also doesn't liberate oxygen like lithium-ion which is why the fires are so hard to put out (and will burn underwater).

I believe you can already order Model Ys with LFP and soon LFP batteries will be ubiquitous ... but that'll make anything without an LFP seem risky. I wouldn't want to try to sell a non-LFP car in 5 years.

The other thing is pack weight. I don't think people are appreciating the design changes Tesla has in store for the German-produced model Y's. You look at a Hyundai and it's got 6 feet of a/c tubing versus a Tesla that has 6". Or the hyundai battery is in it's own case which is then mounted into the chassis - Tesla's battery *is* the chassis and the seats bolt right on top, no extra sheet metal. It's 1000 decisions like that which'll give the new LFP Teslas extended range ... and this is before any of Tesla's battery improvements like tabless, etc etc.

The good news for BMW is they're invested in Our Next Energy, who's doing some VERY cool stuff with batteries all in this same space ... but until BMW gets ONE batteries (at least 3 years) AND can redesign their vehicles to eliminate the waste, they won't be able to compete with Tesla.

[brave-heart]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I have driven one but sat in a Plaid a couple of times now. As a passenger, it is insane when accelerating at any speed. But what surprised me was how quiet, spacious and comfortable the new interior is. However, the Yoke is a big mistake. I also think the Plaid overall stance and proportion look very nice to me.

The yoke is a perfect example for Elon's over confidence that every move Tesla makes is 'revolutionary'. Since model S/X/Cybertruck has no chance to get even an 'optional' conventional wheel, I have no choice but to look elsewhere for a future EV ( fortunately, IX's wheel is right )

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by Axxlrod

Drove my buddy's new Model S Plaid last week. The steering yoke is strange. I liked the increased visibility it offers, but the steering ratio is too low; a 90 degree turn requires the driver to go hand over hand, which is difficult to do since it's not round. I predict a lawsuit over collisions being blamed on the yoke.

Now, the acceleration of the Plaid was unlike anything I've ever experienced before, and I've driven almost every exotic car there is. 0 - 0 in 1.9 pulls the skin on your face back. I'd say it's actually quite dangerous for a street vehicle.

Maybe if they made the steering ratio variable based on speed, that could solve the problem, but even then I don't think I would want it.

As for cars that are dangerous on the street, what's really interesting is the new Hummer. 1000 HP, 1100 lb/ft torque, 0-60 in 3 seconds, all wrapped in a package that weighs over 9,000 lbs. Not saying everyone is going to drive around like a maniac, but I wouldn't want to get hit by one.

[YuicyYumboYack]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Absolutely, the 45e is a fantastic vehicle ... and I agree, probably the best (not even only value, that, but just the best) ...

Here's where I see problems coming in for today's PHEVs / BEVs: battery chemistry & weight.

Not to dunk on the whole fires thing (which really isn't a problem), but mass consumers aren't going to pile into BEVs until that goes away - the good news is, not only is iron phosphate (LFP) safe (you can puncture it with a screwdriver and it won't burn) but it also doesn't liberate oxygen like lithium-ion which is why the fires are so hard to put out (and will burn underwater).

I believe you can already order Model Ys with LFP and soon LFP batteries will be ubiquitous ... but that'll make anything without an LFP seem risky. I wouldn't want to try to sell a non-LFP car in 5 years.

The other thing is pack weight. I don't think people are appreciating the design changes Tesla has in store for the German-produced model Y's. You look at a Hyundai and it's got 6 feet of a/c tubing versus a Tesla that has 6". Or the hyundai battery is in it's own case which is then mounted into the chassis - Tesla's battery *is* the chassis and the seats bolt right on top, no extra sheet metal. It's 1000 decisions like that which'll give the new LFP Teslas extended range ... and this is before any of Tesla's battery improvements like tabless, etc etc.

The good news for BMW is they're invested in Our Next Energy, who's doing some VERY cool stuff with batteries all in this same space ... but until BMW gets ONE batteries (at least 3 years) AND can redesign their vehicles to eliminate the waste, they won't be able to compete with Tesla.

You're right, the amount of engineering that goes into a Tesla is amazing. When you think about it, Tesla has been selling cars for less than 15 years, and what they've been able to accomplish in that time is simply incredible.

While it's not the right car for me (for now), you can't deny that they have completely changed the direction the market is going.

[GS2019]

Originally Posted by YuicyYumboYack

You're right, the amount of engineering that goes into a Tesla is amazing. When you think about it, Tesla has been selling cars for less than 15 years, and what they've been able to accomplish in that time is simply incredible.

While it's not the right car for me (for now), you can't deny that they have completely changed the direction the market is going.

Totally agree and have no doubt that Tesla has taken over the car market. Look at their stock price in a short time. Most people nowadays want a Tesla (although many who wants it can't afford one). Amazing vision and strategy on their part as even BMW, MB, Lexus and other major automakers could never figure anything innovate as Tesla did.