[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by cellarrat

I'm not sure this is fair.

In my extremely limited experience with the system on loaners, I find it incredibly annoying. It is just one reason I find the 45e such a joy to drive; in my car, I have really only experienced it when using battery control.

I am a perfect example of how one can find it annoying without any experience with the "old system" or any political agenda.

Not sure what is not fair about that. You find it annoying and not want to change/use it due to that. Am I missing something? I think people keep reading the second sentence without reading the first. We are talking about emotional reasons for not using the system after taking out the physical/technical reasons due to expectation setting.

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by jad03060

One study long ago said that 90% or so of wear occurs during the first 30-seconds of a cold start. There are ways around that by minimizing any oil flow back so the lines stay full, using an electric oil pump to get pressure up before actually cranking, and using n oil pressure storage bottle to release oil under pressure prior to the actual rotation of the engine by the starter.

IOW, there are ways to minimize and maybe prevent that cold start hiccup. The oil specified in most new BMWs is also quite fluid, so it’s easy to flow. The additives can help keep the oil film intact, so there’s little chance of metal to metal contact, so wear isn’t as big of a deal, even if momentary. If you do your own oil changes, pulling apart the folds of the oil filter would show accumulations of metal particles if it were a problem, and from what I’ve seen, that isn’t an issue. That filter inspection is an integral part of an airplane’s engine oil change, as excessive wear on that has more chance to become a life or death situation, but isn’t something most people do with their vehicles. It’s messy, but with gloves and a little time, not a big deal.

.. .. but.. .. I think we're really talking about a "hot" start when it comes to ASS. BMW engines have increasingly become more efficient and reliable over the years. I'm referring to the engine mechanics and not things like chain guides and other plastic parts. Hence BMW has changed engine oil requirements over the years and has decreased the viscosity of the 'cold' aspect of the oil down to 0 and has also decreased the hot aspect as well down to 20 (except the 8 cyl). To me this is an indication of the improvements BMW has made to reduce wear and increase efficiency which both support a reliable ASS function.
No one has to "like" ASS, no one has to "like" gestures, no one has to "like" DAP but we do like complaining about things we know little about. I'm trying to come to grips with why I don't like ASS, but until I do, I don't use it

[crabman]

Originally Posted by cellarrat

I'm not sure this is fair.

In my extremely limited experience with the system on loaners, I find it incredibly annoying. It is just one reason I find the 45e such a joy to drive; in my car, I have really only experienced it when using battery control.

I am a perfect example of how one can find it annoying without any experience with the "old system" or any political agenda.

Give it up, he's just going to keep walking it back. If you call him on it, he's got nothing but denial, and logical fallacies; primarily ad hominems.

What you're looking at with the first two sentences are opinion, one of them is prefaced as such, the other not. The third sentence is also an opinion and a completely separate thought where he enumerates the reasons why he believes people disable the system.

Because he likes to pretend he didn't say it, lets go over it. The reasons he states: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc."

I'm not seeing emotional aspects there. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, let me copy/paste his exact words again: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc." Nope, didn't show up that time either. How odd.

Anyhow, I'd recommend letting it go, he's never going to admit he whipped out a variant of Schrodinger's Douchebag and got caught.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by crabman

Give it up, he's just going to keep walking it back. If you call him on it, he's got nothing but denial, and logical fallacies; primarily ad hominems.

What you're looking at with the first two sentences are opinion, one of them is prefaced as such, the other not. The third sentence is also an opinion and a completely separate thought where he enumerates the reasons why he believes people disable the system.

Because he likes to pretend he didn't say it, lets go over it. The reasons he states: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc."

I'm not seeing emotional aspects there. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, let me copy/paste his exact words again: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc." Nope, didn't show up that time either. How odd.

Anyhow, I'd recommend letting it go, he's never going to admit he whipped out a variant of Schrodinger's Douchebag and got caught.

Wow, I thought you grew up a bit yesterday but I see that is not the case. We can no longer attribute your nonsense to your reading comprehension problem but rather now you are just being a troll trying to stir things up. You would think that people would have better things to do but I guess some folks will do anything to try and get a little attention, what a sad life you must have.

[tooloud10]

I don't worry about the ASS affecting long term reliability, mostly because I have the PHEV, but...

I did experience a 'textbook' failure of the N20 engine in my daughter's old X3. Oil changes were always done on time, but around 70k miles the engine failed in heavy traffic while the ASS was working overtime.

I still remember my (small) local dealer claiming they didn't see a lot of problems with them, and then bragging to me that they keep the N20 long blocks in stock so the replacement wouldn't take long.

[11001X101]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

But you have to agree that it is meaningless without context. Without a doubt there is wear but if they designed the system to last 500,000 starts and on average a 15 yr old vehicle is started 300,000 there is no downside to it. It reminds me of a member we have who won't enable his folding mirrors because he is afraid he will wear them out.
As has been said many times in this thread, folks should do what they are comfortable with. We also have to keep in mind that these systems were designed by engineers with longevity in mind and not by a few folks sitting around one day just putting a start/stop system together. There is a lot of engineering and science that goes into it.

Have you seen Tesla's vision implementation? Not every engineering work is that engineering. But I agree some are worried too much about things break/wear out. I've seen quite a few locked BMWs with mirrors unfolded. I don't think the anti-ASS folks here (me included) are worried about it breaking their cars, it's more like this feature is an ***.

Originally Posted by crabman

I'm not certain all owners can see any benefits on the mileage end. I came from an S580; V8, 48V, felt very much the same as this one using start/stop.

I was curious about this at some points. I kept track on mileage. While my "experience" was too short to make any conclusion, it showed zero to not significant savings.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by 11001X101

Have you seen Tesla's vision implementation? Not every engineering work is that engineering. But I agree some are worried too much about things break/wear out. I've seen quite a few locked BMWs with mirrors unfolded. I don't think the anti-ASS folks here (me included) are worried about it breaking their cars, it's more like this feature is an ***.

Yes, definitely not all engineering works like it should. There are some who worry about it causing harm but most who don't use it seem to be in your boat and don't like it for one reason or another. I don't think BMW should have removed the button but it doesn't look like it will be back. At least I could still code mine to shut it off but unfortunately that is gone from the LCI and recent versions of iD7.

[sharkymcpeterson]

Originally Posted by davchr

“…they must be Maga morons…”
What is a “Maga moron”? Any person that has beliefs that differ from yours?

Any answer you get is simply regurgitated from msnbc. They have no original thoughts….and couldn’t convey one if they did.

The pleasure was all mine, thanks!

[jad03060]

Around town, I often run in EV mode. But on occasion, I push it a bit harder, and the ICE turns on…that can be the first time it was on, and while it generally still is fairly smooth, it’s less smooth if the ICE hasn’t been running previously on that run…thus, my thought on a (slight) difference between a cold start and a warm on that would be the norm on an ICE vehicle.

[Car-Addicted]

To me there is no logical rationale that the ASS system is not detrimental to the longevity of an engine. Firsts starting any engine causes more wear than a running engine. Look at the efforts taken to start a racing engine. You are instantly accelerating the timing chain and valve train as well as the oiling system. Add to that the wear on the starting and electrical system. Maybe BMW has engineered that into their engines?
I see very few folks who like this feature and many that hate it so why does BMW and other manufactures irritate their customers?
This is part of manufacturers efforts to lower emissions and keep their government overlords out of their bank accounts.
Some especially older cars can have this disconnected but don't be shocked if newer and future cars lock the feature in. Not much to do but acknowledge that ASS is here to stay.

[Marty in NY]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I see very few folks who like this feature and many that hate it so why does BMW and other manufactures irritate their customers?

Not much to do but acknowledge that ASS is here to stay.

Like you said, it's here to stay. If it were only BMW that did this, they wouldn't get away with it but it seems it's little by little creeping into all brands.

[crabman]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Wow, I thought you grew up a bit yesterday but I see that is not the case. We can no longer attribute your nonsense to your reading comprehension problem but rather now you are just being a troll trying to stir things up. You would think that people would have better things to do but I guess some folks will do anything to try and get a little attention, what a sad life you must have.

A logical fallacy is an argument that can be shown to be fallacious through simple reasoning. As an example; when you attack the man, rather than the argument, this is known as an ad hominem. Your entire post is one long ad hominem attack.

People employ logical fallacies when their own arguments lack substance, or have no objective support. They are also used as rhetorical devices to obfuscate a set of facts or issues which can't be addressed with supported argument. The last common use is unintentional; where people are unaware their arguments can't withstand logical scrutiny, but they were not employed as a stratagem.

You're on record, but you seem forgetful in that regard, so here is your list: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc."

You wrote that. No one has to wonder what you meant, you enumerated exactly what that was, in the same sentence.

I imagine what follows will be more of the same, but I'm going to try my best not to respond to it. You can be sure I will have read your remarks. As I did from the start, I'll instantly discard all logical fallacies, or the denial of facts well in evidence. But I will give due consideration to any substantive comments.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by crabman

A logical fallacy is an argument that can be shown to be fallacious through simple reasoning. As an example; when you attack the man, rather than the argument, this is known as an ad hominem. Your entire post is one long ad hominem attack.

People employ logical fallacies when their own arguments lack substance, or have no objective support. They are also used as rhetorical devices to obfuscate a set of facts or issues which can't be addressed with supported argument. The last common use is unintentional; where people are unaware their arguments can't withstand logical scrutiny, but they were not employed as a stratagem.

You're on record, but you seem forgetful in that regard, so here is your list: "The reasons for disabling it stem from lack of knowledge of the system, not wanting to change, perception of how old systems work, political reasons, etc."

You wrote that. No one has to wonder what you meant, you enumerated exactly what that was, in the same sentence.

I imagine what follows will be more of the same, but I'm going to try my best not to respond to it. You can be sure I will have read your remarks. As I did from the start, I'll instantly discard all logical fallacies, or the denial of facts well in evidence. But I will give due consideration to any substantive comments.

You just make yourself look worse and worse all of the time. The members here have enough experience to see right through your trollish tactics. Time to cut bait buddy and may try another forum.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by sharkymcpeterson

Any answer you get is simply regurgitated from msnbc. They have no original thoughts….and couldn’t convey one if they did.

The pleasure was all mine, thanks!

Just like his posts to me, that was crabman ’s attempt to rile people up. What he doesn’t seem to get is we have seen it all before and it is just a minor annoyance to deal with folks like him. It is like shooting fish in a barrel, entertaining for awhile then just becomes tiresome.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by 11001X101

I've seen quite a few locked BMWs with mirrors unfolded.

I'm looking at both of my locked BMWs with unfolded mirrors...am I missing the significance of this?

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Firsts starting any engine causes more wear than a running engine.

Warm starts are quite a bit different than cold starts in that regard.

Look at the efforts taken to start a racing engine. You are instantly accelerating the timing chain and valve train as well as the oiling system. Add to that the wear on the starting and electrical system. Maybe BMW has engineered that into their engines?

Engines built for racing have a quite different use case scenario than the B58 in most X5s. I've been using these systems for quite a few years now in quite a few cars and I haven't had any electrical or starter issues. I don't think this one is a big deal.

I see very few folks who like this feature and many that hate it so why does BMW and other manufactures irritate their customers?

Because when every other manufacturer is doing it and enjoying the 'boost' in their efficiency, there's no reason for BMW not to as well.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Marty in NY

Like you said, it's here to stay. If it were only BMW that did this, they wouldn't get away with it but it seems it's little by little creeping into all brands.

It's unelected government bureaucrats that make up funky rules on a whim. Meet their arbitrary numbers they pulled out of their butts or else they fine you big bucks.

[BlkGS]

Locked mirrors folded vs not... Are we saying that the folding motor wore out? Or they disabled the feature to prevent that failure? I dunno.

[jad03060]

Some aspects of folding the mirrors is adjustable in the idrive menu. I have mine fold when I lock, but not open when i unlock and start the vehicle. I fold mine prior to going into my garage, and don’t want them to unfold automatically upon unlock or start until I’ve exited the garage. It’s been a long time, but I don’t think having them fold is a locked in ‘feature’…IOW, it’s adjustable, but I’d have to look back in the menu to be sure.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Locked mirrors folded vs not... Are we saying that the folding motor wore out? Or they disabled the feature to prevent that failure? I dunno.

It started with a discussion about not using features because they may wear out. We have at least one member post saying they won't set their mirrors to folding because they are afraid they will wear out.

[Holomatrix7]

I have done side-by-side testing using the stop-start and with it software disabled on my 2020 740i and 2023 X5 40i

No percievable difference in fuel usage. Huge increase in *%#$ annoyance value. I don't care what you say, stopping and starting has to increase wear on different parts. I now keep it permanently software disabled. Engine is happier, car is happier, I am happier. Screw the bought politicians

[IftiBashir]

I tend to switch it off [when I remember] every time I drive. I find it a bit annoying.

[11001X101]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

I'm looking at both of my locked BMWs with unfolded mirrors...am I missing the significance of this?

I'm not sure what years yours are but for this generation, you can set it so it will fold mirrors when locked. Some either don't know or intentionally leave it unfolded because of wear concern as TurtleBoy said.

Originally Posted by Holomatrix7

I have done side-by-side testing using the stop-start and with it software disabled on my 2020 740i and 2023 X5 40i
No percievable difference in fuel usage. Huge increase in *%#$ annoyance value. I don't care what you say, stopping and starting has to increase wear on different parts. I now keep it permanently software disabled. Engine is happier, car is happier, I am happier. Screw the bought politicians

Agree on all points. Unfortunately we can no longer disable with software on LCI (yet).