[jad03060]

One thing that differs from many other consumer, battery powered products, a vehicle does NOT leave the power applied, constantly charging the batteries while still plugged in...the EVSE gets disconnected and you can usually hear a clunk when it engages or disengages the power contactor. Over a long-term, it may take it a week or more for the batteries to drop charge level enough for the vehicle to ask the EVSE to turn back on, and probably longer unless there's some frequent power use.

Different battery chemistry will respond differently to charging cycles. FWIW, one cycle is from 100-0-100%. Charging 10x from 90-100% puts the same wear on the thing as one charge from 0-100 pretty closely. But, also, the vehicle's computer will not allow you to fully discharge the battery, and leaves buffers to try to maximize the battery life. In the USA, the battery warranty is 8-years or 100K miles, the battery will retain at least 70% of original stated capacity. My i3 that I traded in was 7-years old, and was still at about 85-90%.

I, too, plan to keep my 45e a while, but I plug it in when I get home every trip, letting it recharge so I'll have max range when I decide to leave again. I don't worry about it. My typical car ownership lasts 6-9 years until I get either pissed off, or bored, or there's something new I decide I really want. Having a new vehicle frequently isn't a big deal to me, and I don't put huge amounts of miles on the things, so major repairs usually aren't a big issue, but are almost always cheaper than the depreciation if I were to trade more often.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

the 45e high voltage battery is covered under the federal emissions warranty for 8 years/80,000 miles

i just had one battery module replaced after 1 year/4300 miles. cost: $0

**curious: why are you "charging it for 11h a day"? it the U.S. with 17kWh, if you're gonna keep the vehicle several years, it's more practical to invest in Level 2 charging @16A takes ~6h

I think you missed my point. Whether it is 17 hrs or 6 hrs on Level2. My point was after 6 -7 years when it’s not covered with warranty and battery/charging technology will be taking an hour for full charge, will 45e look lame?


Anyone given thought to that? What would be residual value of the car in real world terms - will there be a market for a used 6-7 old 45e? What is Tesla’s experience given they have been around for 10 plus years … to their battery packs and charging technology?

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

I think you missed my point. Whether it is 17 hrs or 6 hrs on Level2. My point was after 6 -7 years when it's not covered with warranty and battery/charging technology will be taking an hour for full charge, will 45e look lame?

Anyone given thought to that? What would be residual value of the car in real world terms - will there be a market for a used 6-7 old 45e? What is Tesla's experience given they have been around for 10 plus years … to their battery packs and charging technology?

the battery is warranted for 8 years. (did you read my first reply to you?)

it appears you're wondering if battery module replacements several years down the road will be 'upgraded' given the original modules will be obsolete compared to the then-current EV battery tech. maybe, but the main limitation is the 45e's on-board charger that maxes out @3.7kW/16A (level 2). it won't matter how bright and shiny the new battery modules are.

you're kind of answering your own question regarding residual value. Is there currently a market for a 2014 [insert vehicle]? depends what it is and who you ask. is it "lame"? also depends, but it is old/obsolete.

[jad03060]

The things that can be a major problem for EV batteries, are poor cooling capacity (Leaf vehicles in the US SW have some big problems with batteries as theirs are all air-cooled, not liquid cooled like the BMWs, and Tesla, among others), whether DC fast charging is done, and how often (not an issue with the 45e, it doesn't have that capability), and how much, if any, buffers are built into how the batteries are used. Tesla normally keeps a fairly big buffer, but OTA, like say during an emergency, will allow a vehicle to use more. The US buffer is quite large, actually larger than Tesla's. They use different battery tech and chemistry. Other than Nissan's products, and a manufacturing issue causing a bad batch, most companies have not had major battery warranty replacement issues or costs.

Time will tell how the 45e fares...given what their previous EV and PHEV vehicles' history, I don't worry about it.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

it appears you're wondering if battery module replacements several years down the road will be 'upgraded' given the original modules will be obsolete compared to the then-current EV battery tech. maybe, but the main limitation is the 45e's on-board charger that maxes out @3.7kW/16A (level 2). it won't matter how bright and shiny the new battery modules are.

you're kind of answering your own question regarding residual value. Is there currently a market for a 2014 [insert vehicle]? depends what it is and who you ask. is it "lame"? also depends, but it is old/ obsolete.

Well my 2014 Acura RDX which I gave to my son could still fetch 10k or 12-14% of its original price. The engine when maintained will go on and it still takes same time to refill the car as a 2022 model. For 45e will be a tortoise and a hare race (yes tortoise wins it in the story).

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

Well my 2014 Acura RDX which I gave to my son could still fetch 10k or 12-14% of its original price. The engine when maintained will go on and it still takes same time to refill the car as a 2022 model. For 45e will be a tortoise and a hare race (yes tortoise wins it in the story).

comparing filling up a gas tank to battery recharging speed isn't congruent. 19 gallons in 2021 will be the same 19 gallons in 2028. to liken the improvement of future battery charging speeds to the speed of filling up a gas tank, you'd have to improve fluid physics.

my point is we don't really know what will be considered 'valuable' years from now and what kind of ROI to expect.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

comparing filling up a gas tank to battery recharging speed isn't congruent. 19 gallons in 2021 will be the same 19 gallons in 2028. to liken the improvement of future battery charging speeds to the speed of filling up a gas tank, you'd have to improve fluid physics.

my point is we don't really know what will be considered 'valuable' years from now.

Let me see .. word association

Filling an ice car is same as charging a battery to a phev/ev… I could have left one of them blank for fill in the ….

Why would you say not congruent? There is congruency of principle and similarity in the act.

Now, could one replace the built in charging module or electronics with one in 2028 that allows 45e to charge faster like other vehicles of MY28 - I don’t know.

[jad03060]

What will be the common battery type, size, and charging capacity in the next ten years is not determined, and is evolving. The nobody really knows what the charging network will look like. Most people do NOT need rapid charging except when they are on a trip, and then, it depends on your needs and expectations. If you're stopping to eat, many of the CCS units today can have you recharged at least most of the way IF you can find one, and it's near where you want to eat or shop. Availability of charging is and will improve, but it has a long way to go before it gets to availability of a gas station.

There are units out there today that can recharge at 350Kwhr rates, but very few places that can do it, or vehicles that can take advantage of it. I think it was Ford that demoed on that was over 1000Kwhr as a proof of concept. Solid state batteries will likely start to become feasible and economically available after awhile, and different battery chemistries will become available.

FWIW, there are EVs today that can 'recharge' in minutes, and provide way more range than any current EV with batteries can provide...FCEVs bigger problem is availability of hydrogen refueling stations. Secondarily, there's not that much green hydrogen being made, but that is starting to change and there's a bunch of research money (hopefully) coming available to improve the process. Germany is working hard on green hydrogen supplies. There's a few prototype solar mirror concentration systems to both make electricity and use the high temperature steam to make hydrogen...it's easier to strip apart when it's steam versus liquid. Research will improve the process and maybe lead to new paths. There has been some progress on electrode terminals for electrolysis that doesn't need to start with such pure water.

IOW, there are likely a bunch of improvements and advancements coming. The transition is going to take a long time, and there will likely be a market for current vehicles, at least in many countries, for a number of years. Most vehicles lose a huge amount over the first couple of years, let alone after 7-10 or more. Regardless of what it is, it won't be worth a huge amount after a decade. The batteries actually, may be the biggest value in recycling.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by jad03060

What will be the common battery type, size, and charging capacity in the next ten years is not determined, and is evolving. The nobody really knows what the charging network will look like. Most people do NOT need rapid charging except when they are on a trip, and then, it depends on your needs and expectations. If you're stopping to eat, many of the CCS units today can have you recharged at least most of the way IF you can find one, and it's near where you want to eat or shop. Availability of charging is and will improve, but it has a long way to go before it gets to availability of a gas station.

There are units out there today that can recharge at 350Kwhr rates, but very few places that can do it, or vehicles that can take advantage of it. I think it was Ford that demoed on that was over 1000Kwhr as a proof of concept. Solid state batteries will likely start to become feasible and economically available after awhile, and different battery chemistries will become available.

FWIW, there are EVs today that can 'recharge' in minutes, and provide way more range than any current EV with batteries can provide...FCEVs bigger problem is availability of hydrogen refueling stations. Secondarily, there's not that much green hydrogen being made, but that is starting to change and there's a bunch of research money (hopefully) coming available to improve the process. Germany is working hard on green hydrogen supplies. There's a few prototype solar mirror concentration systems to both make electricity and use the high temperature steam to make hydrogen...it's easier to strip apart when it's steam versus liquid. Research will improve the process and maybe lead to new paths. There has been some progress on electrode terminals for electrolysis that doesn't need to start with such pure water.

IOW, there are likely a bunch of improvements and advancements coming. The transition is going to take a long time, and there will likely be a market for current vehicles, at least in many countries, for a number of years. Most vehicles lose a huge amount over the first couple of years, let alone after 7-10 or more. Regardless of what it is, it won't be worth a huge amount after a decade. The batteries actually, may be the biggest value in recycling.

Look, I am not disputing any of it what you said. I am a big proponent of green everything, not that I need a green badge to support what I am saying. Your arguments that today vehicles can charge in minutes …the ford example you gave. All of that is irrelevant to the point I was making. I a, specifically talking about the 45e as it is being produced/sold today. It has one of the slowest charging. BMW limits the amperage compared to other EVs. I don’t need a lecture on green energy and solid state batteries. Or what can or cannot happen. My point was and is still 45e and it’s charging and the state of batteries vis a vis its sale value.

I was wondering what does a 2015 Model S go for … in residual value. We don’t have a longitudinal history of ev/phev, also because technology is changing much more rapidly than it did in the early years of ic engine development.

I welcome insights …. On 45e. Yes, no one has seen the future ..yet

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

Let me see .. word association

Filling an ice car is same as charging a battery to a phev/ev… I could have left one of them blank for fill in the ….

Why would you say not congruent? There is congruency of principle and similarity in the act.

Now, could one replace the built in charging module or electronics with one in 2028 that allows 45e to charge faster like other vehicles of MY28 - I don’t know.

it's not word association or semantics. i'm being very specific.

it's not congruent because the speed at which the gasoline liquid moves in the act of filling the tank is the same in 2021 and 2028 while the speed at which the electrons move in the act of recharging the batteries may not be the same in 2021 and 2028 (hypothetically much faster in 2028)

there are different types of car owners: ones that change every few years to keep up with technology, ones that run their cars to the ground, ones that maintain and modify as much as resourcefully possible. which type are you and how is it applicable to the factory or modified electric range of the current 45e being discussed in this thread?

your thought process about whether to purchase the 45e with its current charging speed is analogous to whether to purchase a computer with its current processing speed. certain specs still make you purchase a specific computer today without reservation knowing full well its speed will be trumped by faster models in the future. that same decision process can be used to help you decide if the 45e is worth purchasing (based on charging speed alone).

i can understand your reservation, though. we already know the possibility of upgrading the RAM, processor, hard drive, etc. of current computers, but we don't yet know if we can perform comparable upgrades to the current 45e.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

it's not word association or semantics. i'm being very specific.

it's not congruent because the speed at which the gasoline liquid moves in the act of filling the tank is the same in 2021 and 2028 while the speed at which the electrons move in the act of recharging the batteries may not be the same in 2021 and 2028 (hypothetically much faster in 2028)

there are different types of car owners: ones that change every few years to keep up with technology, ones that run their cars to the ground, ones that maintain and modify as much as resourcefully possible. which type are you and how is it applicable to the factory or modified electric range of the current 45e being discussed in this thread?

your thought process about whether to purchase the 45e with its current charging speed is analogous to whether to purchase a computer with its current processing speed. certain specs still make you purchase a specific computer today without reservation knowing full well its speed will be trumped by faster models in the future. that same decision process can be used to help you decide if the 45e is worth purchasing (based on charging speed alone).

i can understand your reservation, though. we already know the possibility of upgrading the RAM, processor, hard drive, etc. of current computers, but we don't yet know if we can perform comparable upgrades to the current 45e.

I will just respond to your first claim. In 2028 the electrons will move at the same speed as they do today (speed of light is not changing). The constriction is a function of how fast bmw lets them move by cramping top amperage at 16 amps (or whatever it is).

Aha but it is so tempting to refute your computer argument. My computer does not cost 75k and if it did you bet I would be worried about it’s real residual worth if it took 15 minutes to reboot compared to a minute by its future competitors.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

I will just respond to your first claim. In 2028 the electrons will move at the same speed as they do today (speed of light is not changing). The constriction is a function of how fast bmw lets them move by cramping top amperage at 16 amps (or whatever it is).

Aha but it is so tempting to refute your computer argument. My computer does not cost 75k and if it did you bet I would be worried about it’s real residual worth if it took 15 minutes to reboot compared to a minute by its future competitors.

1) touché! lol my fault for not being specific: it's the "flow" of the electrons as dictated (or "constricted" as you say) by the chemical medium, power source, etc. that determines the recharging speed.

2) well, the 45e is a $75k "computer". still, i wasn't being sarcastic with my computer analogy. relatively speaking, would you agree a $2000 computer still needs to be perceived as 'valuable' for x many years regardless of the possibility of upgrades or its future competitors? this 'value' is what you're trying to determine after owning a 45e for x many years, correct?

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

1) touché! lol my fault for not being specific: it's the "flow" of the electrons as dictated (or "constricted" as you say) by the chemical medium, power source, etc. that determines the recharging speed.

2) well, the 45e is a $75k 'computer'

I disagree on 1). It’s not just the battery but the electronics that control the charging for variety of reasons. Do you not agree bmw/45e is slower charging than its competitors today?

2) I have worked on million $$ computers. It’s not a 75k computer, it’s basic and first order of service is to take me from point to point b.

Anyway, enough jousting. I really did not intend it to get side tracked. Perhaps I am a worry wad as they say and to me 75k is a lot of money.as an engineer in me I strive for optimal decision making, hence my original musing ….

Thanks for indulging my views.
Cheers.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

Perhaps I am a worry wad as they say and to me 75k is a lot of money.as an engineer in me I strive for optimal decision making, hence my original musing ….

i don't think you're a "worry wad", just trying to make an educated decision on a $75k purchase, but i think it's safe to say any vehicle 6-7 years later will lose its value. by how much is indeterminable and the better part of speculation with the 45e, though 2021 is turning out to be an anomaly. who would've known one's used vehicle could be worth more in 2021 than when it was purchased new in 2020?!

as a biomedical engineer/physics major gone anesthesia, i have similar thinking processes. still, i don't know your purchasing power or preferences, so only you can decide if its future value is worthy for you. for me, i usually lease but purchased my 45e and plan to keep it 6-7 years even though i know its tech will be outdated by then. i've also just installed solar panels and built a new addition to the home knowing full well in 3 years there will be more efficient PV panels and my home's value will only go up a few thousand compared to how much i spent adding to it. i enjoy all these things now and in the foreseeable future. i'll deal with their devaluation when the time comes.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Delrazdan

I disagree on 1). It’s not just the battery but the electronics that control the charging for variety of reasons. Do you not agree bmw/45e is slower charging than its competitors today?

2) I have worked on million $$ computers. It’s not a 75k computer, it’s basic and first order of service is to take me from point to point b.

Anyway, enough jousting. I really did not intend it to get side tracked. Perhaps I am a worry wad as they say and to me 75k is a lot of money.as an engineer in me I strive for optimal decision making, hence my original musing ….

Thanks for indulging my views.
Cheers.

The X5 45e is not slow charging compared to its competitors today since the 45e is a PHEV and PHEVs generally are limited to Level 2 charging and not Level 3 "DC fast charging". This makes sense due to the desire to ensure the batteries last as long as possible. The biggest problem for Lithium Ion batteries is heat. The faster you charge a Lithium Ion battery the more heat you generate and the bigger the hit to the battery's lifespan.

As has been discussed earlier Level 3 charging is all about speeding up charging in time constrained driving scenarios -- pretty much only road trips for average drivers. For a PHEV this scenario is covered by access to gas. So there is no valid scenario to Level 3 charge a PHEV.

But you're definitely looking at this wrong. For a long-term owner the 8Y battery warranty will cover you. Especially if you push for a warranty battery replacement in year 8 to power you for another extended period. Will the battery fail at some point? Yes, but you could see battery replacements costs decreasing in that timeframe so it is hard to predict what it would cost to replace in 10 years.

But if you're worried about the resale value of long ownership on any of the German brands I'd say you're in for a very painful lesson. Whether ICE, PHEV, EV the German brands have very steep depreciation curves. In 10Y the car will be worth pennies of what you paid for it if ordered new unless you're talking about very niche models. Long term ownership is about extracting the most value out of the car in the time period you own it. You get steep depreciation, but if you own it longer you don't pay the depreciation tax all the time (since the steepest drops are in the early years -- ignoring the recent anomalies).

[e61it]

A message missing here is perhaps lots of folks are driving hybrids, ev's. or phevs is not for gas savings or for resale value down the road but to cut down on their carbon footprint. Acknowledge that there are lots of pros and cons but maybe it's just a way to perhaps feel like the environment is worth buying less fossil fuels for our daily drivers.

[jad03060]

While BMW sets a level of 70% for triggering its warranty process, that does not mean the vehicle is useless if it drops further. It depends on what your daily needs are. Today, the battery capacity is enough to meet most people's daily use. Certainly, that's only an average, but even if you're over that, the batteries in the PHEV will aid in the efficiency of the vehicle, so the most common failure mode on batteries is not that they stop holding any charge, but that their total energy capacity continues to drop. BMW chose to limit charging speeds and manage the charge/use range of the batteries to optimize their life IMHO. Putting in a larger on-board AC-DC converter means more heat, more weight, more cooling. Yes, BMW has larger AC-DC converters in their inventory, but like on the i3, they actually use two 3700W devices. I do not know if the design of the one in the X5 was taken from one of those, but it likely is. With a full-blown I6 ICE in there with a decently sized gas tank, and the fact that the thing is pretty heavy, my guess is that given it's a PHEV, it was not cost and mission essential to use a larger AC-DC converter...this is in their sales documentation as to the size of the thing and how long it takes to charge it, so an astute buyer should not be surprised...you bought it...live with it. It should continue to work as designed for a long time. At the end of this decade, should you keep it that long, if you can't sell it, it should still have some salvage value, but parts should still be available if it's not legislated out in some countries. While you may no longer be able to buy a new one, I expect you can still own and drive one, but they may make the costs start to get high. Right now, in the USA, until or if the tax credits change, it's cheaper to buy and own a 45e versus a 40i. There will be a time when you won't be able to buy a 40i, or whatever ends up replacing it. IN some countries, that will come sooner. Gasoline will continue to get more expensive with various dips and peaks, but the slope over time will go up, some of which may be from taxation.

[Delrazdan]

Originally Posted by jad03060

While BMW sets a level of 70% for triggering its warranty process, that does not mean the vehicle is useless if it drops further. It depends on what your daily needs are. Today, the battery capacity is enough to meet most people's daily use. Certainly, that's only an average, but even if you're over that, the batteries in the PHEV will aid in the efficiency of the vehicle, so the most common failure mode on batteries is not that they stop holding any charge, but that their total energy capacity continues to drop. BMW chose to limit charging speeds and manage the charge/use range of the batteries to optimize their life IMHO. Putting in a larger on-board AC-DC converter means more heat, more weight, more cooling. Yes, BMW has larger AC-DC converters in their inventory, but like on the i3, they actually use two 3700W devices. I do not know if the design of the one in the X5 was taken from one of those, but it likely is. With a full-blown I6 ICE in there with a decently sized gas tank, and the fact that the thing is pretty heavy, my guess is that given it's a PHEV, it was not cost and mission essential to use a larger AC-DC converter...this is in their sales documentation as to the size of the thing and how long it takes to charge it, so an astute buyer should not be surprised...you bought it...live with it. It should continue to work as designed for a long time. At the end of this decade, should you keep it that long, if you can't sell it, it should still have some salvage value, but parts should still be available if it's not legislated out in some countries. While you may no longer be able to buy a new one, I expect you can still own and drive one, but they may make the costs start to get high. Right now, in the USA, until or if the tax credits change, it's cheaper to buy and own a 45e versus a 40i. There will be a time when you won't be able to buy a 40i, or whatever ends up replacing it. IN some countries, that will come sooner. Gasoline will continue to get more expensive with various dips and peaks, but the slope over time will go up, some of which may be from taxation.

Thx for excellent analysis. When I posed my question that is exactly what I was hoping to hear. Instead we went into rabbit holes.

Appreciate your response.

[kingmonkeyjr]

So after about 2 weeks with the range extender the displayed value seems to be lining up correctly. Note when I was driving it would say 17 miles then jump to 27 at times. Alex at mission said it would happen until the car responded to the new values. So at 42 degrees out with 60 miles is pretty awesome. Keep everyone updated but things are great. No codes or faults.

[nerv101]

Thanks for the update.

[javapro]

Originally Posted by kingmonkeyjr

So after about 2 weeks with the range extender the displayed value seems to be lining up correctly. Note when I was driving it would say 17 miles then jump to 27 at times. Alex at mission said it would happen until the car responded to the new values. So at 42 degrees out with 60 miles is pretty awesome. Keep everyone updated but things are great. No codes or faults.

kingmonkeyjr How did you connect the ENET cable to your laptop? I called Mission Performance and they told me that I have to get a USB to Ethernet adapter even though my laptop has an Ethernet port.

[taybo20]

Originally Posted by kingmonkeyjr

So after about 2 weeks with the range extender the displayed value seems to be lining up correctly. Note when I was driving it would say 17 miles then jump to 27 at times. Alex at mission said it would happen until the car responded to the new values. So at 42 degrees out with 60 miles is pretty awesome. Keep everyone updated but things are great. No codes or faults.

This is the content I’m here for! Please keep us up to date!