[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by SwissBeemer

There is a reason for the M being an F95, not G05. There's a set of AG cars and M cars with a huge distinction between them. I know people like to cope saying "Well my car is basically an M car." because they have the "M-Performance" model but the truth is those M-Performance models are closer to the base model than the actual M car.

Maybe I missed it but didn’t realize anyone was trying to say the M60i was as good as the X5M. There is a huge difference between the two. The M60i is an M model but it is not what we traditionally think of as an M car. You are oversimplifying /ignoring the differences between the 40i/50e and the M60i. It is not just a matter of a different engine or just a suspension difference like all others. Those differences obviously don’t matter to you so they aren’t important but to others they are.

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Maybe I missed it but didn’t realize anyone was trying to say the M60i was as good as the X5M. There is a huge difference between the two. The M60i is an M model but it is not what we traditionally think of as an M car. You are oversimplifying /ignoring the differences between the 40i/50e and the M60i. It is not just a matter of a different engine or just a suspension difference like all others. Those differences obviously don’t matter to you so they aren’t important but to others they are.

I think SwissBeemer is just trying to say the delta from an m60 to an M is greater than the delta from a 50e to an m60. Which I don’t think anyone would be in disagreement about? He goes on to subjectively say the delta btw the 50e and m60i in the performance category was not worth it for him. He also did say the m60 is a better performer so no disagreement here. But, that benefit is small enough or not important enough to him. The benefits of the 50e outweigh these..

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I think SwissBeemer is just trying to say the delta from an m60 to an M is greater than the delta from a 50e to an m60. Which I don’t think anyone would be in disagreement about? He goes on to subjectively say the delta btw the 50e and m60i in the performance category was not worth it for him. He also did say the m60 is a better performer so no disagreement here. But, that benefit is small enough or not important enough to him. The benefits of the 50e outweigh these..

That's exactly how I read it too. I happen to agree in the sense that if I was looking for an SUV that performed better than a 50e, I would skip the rest of the X5 lineup above it and head over to the Porsche dealer.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I think SwissBeemer is just trying to say the delta from an m60 to an M is greater than the delta from a 50e to an m60. Which I don’t think anyone would be in disagreement about? He goes on to subjectively say the delta btw the 50e and m60i in the performance category was not worth it for him. He also did say the m60 is a better performer so no disagreement here. But, that benefit is small enough or not important enough to him. The benefits of the 50e outweigh these..

The guy is on a futile mission to convince somebody here other than himself that the line is blurry between the 50e and M60i which anyone here who understands this stuff knows is an untenable notion.

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by cobramite

The guy is on a futile mission to convince somebody here other than himself that the line is blurry between the 50e and M60i which anyone here who understands this stuff knows is an untenable notion.

That might be true and I am absolutely not qualified to opine on that besides my own subjective feelings. But his opinion is that they are close enough to justify the other benefits of 50e.

But around a track I’m sure the 50e gets smoked.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I think SwissBeemer is just trying to say the delta from an m60 to an M is greater than the delta from a 50e to an m60. Which I don’t think anyone would be in disagreement about? He goes on to subjectively say the delta btw the 50e and m60i in the performance category was not worth it for him. He also did say the m60 is a better performer so no disagreement here. But, that benefit is small enough or not important enough to him. The benefits of the 50e outweigh these..

The guy is on a futile mission to convince somebody here other than himself that the line is blurry between the 50e and M60i which anyone here who understands this stuff knows is an untenable notion.
The 50e is a great vehicle that serves those who desire the PHEV capability quite well but is cleary not an "M light" or full boat X5M.
These are all very defineable steps up the ladder.

[Mattl0806]

EOD trying to keep the peace .

The differences of these vehicles are objectively undeniable and measurable.

The perceived value of these differences is sooooo individually biased it’s hard to ever come to agreeement.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

That might be true and I am absolutely not qualified to opine on that besides my own subjective feelings. But his opinion is that they are close enough to justify the other benefits of 50e.

But around a track I’m sure the 50e gets smoked.

all X5 get smoke after first couple of laps, maybe 2. Approaching 5 laps, smoked by Miata. . X5 is a family hauler.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

EOD trying to keep the peace .

The differences of these vehicles are objectively undeniable and measurable.

The perceived value of these differences is sooooo individually biased it’s hard to ever come to agreeement.

I get what you are saying Man. You seem like a good guy.

[roamio]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

Maybe I missed it but didn’t realize anyone was trying to say the M60i was as good as the X5M. There is a huge difference between the two. The M60i is an M model but it is not what we traditionally think of as an M car. You are oversimplifying /ignoring the differences between the 40i/50e and the M60i. It is not just a matter of a different engine or just a suspension difference like all others. Those differences obviously don’t matter to you so they aren’t important but to others they are.

No, you didn't miss anything. Unlike most you are 100% right. Some people simply read magazines and post "oh it's simply M badge marketing". Oh well....

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by cobramite

I get what you are saying Man. You seem like a good guy.

Please tell my wife

[roamio]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

Please tell my wife

OK, it's official - Matt from NY is a nice guy (at least according to bimmerpost forums).

*** Please take a screenshot and show it to her.

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by roamio

OK, it's official - Matt from NY is a nice guy (at least according to bimmerpost forums).

*** Please take a screenshot and show it to her.

Hahah Ty !!

[kfresh]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

all X5 get smoke after first couple of laps, maybe 2. Approaching 5 laps, smoked by Miata. . X5 is a family hauler.

Surely the family hauler should be slower then a Miata gt3

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by kfresh

Surely the family hauler should be slower then a Miata gt3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coEA618Qfxo&t=570s

That is one lap. I agree one hot lap can be fast. Tire is fresh, brake is cool, the weight defect doesn’t become obvious. After 5 laps, I am not so sure the hp advantage will still dominate. For PHEV, or non M models, the degradation should be more obvious.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Mattl0806

I think SwissBeemer is just trying to say the delta from an m60 to an M is greater than the delta from a 50e to an m60. Which I don’t think anyone would be in disagreement about? He goes on to subjectively say the delta btw the 50e and m60i in the performance category was not worth it for him. He also did say the m60 is a better performer so no disagreement here. But, that benefit is small enough or not important enough to him. The benefits of the 50e outweigh these..

I would absolutely disagree. The M to M60 is a fairly modest set of changes. The 50e to M60 is a completely different drivetrain, completely different character, they're worlds apart.

The M60i certainly is more like an X5M than it is a 50e. To say the opposite is insanity. The M60i is so close to the X5M that they literally killed off the X5M (at least for the US), and only make X5MCs now, because the M60i and X5M overlap too much.

[kfresh]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

That is one lap. I agree one hot lap can be fast. Tire is fresh, brake is cool, the weight defect doesn’t become obvious. After 5 laps, I am not so sure the hp advantage will still dominate. For PHEV, or non M models, the degradation should be more obvious.

Agreed, non M models and PHEV will suffer significantly after the 1st lap but for true M cars, cooling is a priority.

Not that 99.99% of people that own an X5M car would ever track it but if they DID, that is where the money is spent

[Mattl0806]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I would absolutely disagree. The M to M60 is a fairly modest set of changes. The 50e to M60 is a completely different drivetrain, completely different character, they're worlds apart.

The M60i certainly is more like an X5M than it is a 50e. To say the opposite is insanity. The M60i is so close to the X5M that they literally killed off the X5M (at least for the US), and only make X5MCs now, because the M60i and X5M overlap too much.

I am never right! I’ve got to stop trying.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by kfresh

Agreed, non M models and PHEV will suffer significantly after the 1st lap but for true M cars, cooling is a priority.

Not that 99.99% of people that own an X5M car would ever track it but if they DID, that is where the money is spent

Pet peeve of mine.

When testing cars for lap times, usually we talk about "beat single lap". Often times that's after a warmup lap, then maybe 2-3 hot laps. Most tracks, this is maybe 7-8 minutes in. Most tracks day sessions are 20-30 minutes. The cooling needed to keep a car cool for a full session isn't free, it adds weight and lowers that max time. But you take that car that sets a hot lap out for another 10 minutes and it falls on its face or overheats. The C7 Corvette Z06 was a great example. It would.overheat like crazy, but if you could run a hot lap before the heat soaked in, it was crazy fast. It was on paper fast, but in reality, guys with c6 Z06s could run a faster session.

I watched a track test of the RS3 and the new M2 the other night. The RS3 was very close on its hot lap, but there's little doubt in my mind it couldn't keep up that pace for a 20 minute session. I suspect the M2 absolutely could.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I would absolutely disagree. The M to M60 is a fairly modest set of changes. The 50e to M60 is a completely different drivetrain, completely different character, they're worlds apart.

The M60i certainly is more like an X5M than it is a 50e. To say the opposite is insanity. The M60i is so close to the X5M that they literally killed off the X5M (at least for the US), and only make X5MCs now, because the M60i and X5M overlap too much.

This is not true at all, the differences between the M60i and the X5M are vast. Other than the engine, there is very little in common between them.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I would absolutely disagree. The M to M60 is a fairly modest set of changes. The 50e to M60 is a completely different drivetrain, completely different character, they're worlds apart.

The M60i certainly is more like an X5M than it is a 50e. To say the opposite is insanity. The M60i is so close to the X5M that they literally killed off the X5M (at least for the US), and only make X5MCs now, because the M60i and X5M overlap too much.

You are absolutely, 100% correct. M60i is much closer to the X5M than the PHEV base model 50e although there is a noteable step between the two. Thank You.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

This is not true at all, the differences between the M60i and the X5M are vast. Other than the engine, there is very little in common between them.

I've got a fair amount of driver's seat time in a friends '21 X5MC and can tell you that it is a handfull to the point that it almost defies the laws of physics. The thing that draws people to these vehicles is that they make no sense at all. Absolutely no logical reason for an SUV to handle and pin the driver in the seat the way these full boat "M" rides do.