[X6M50i]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

That is an X6 and they by and large do not have the wrinkles or at least not in the pattern shown in the X5.

I guess where it could be relevant is that it would be another argument (not that any others are needed since no one really believes they are a defect but rather just like to keep this thread going) for the wrinkles in the X5 to be by design. If the seats were supposed to be the same it would be impossible for them to make the X5's all bad and the X6's all fine.

I've also seen a few X6 with rear seats wrinkles, so I guess not so much of a design if there are also X6 with perfect "smooth" seats like these shown in the video

Here are some video examples:

4:17 - 4:22 wrinkles, then 4:23 - 4:25 (stock video grab) shows no wrinkles (not sure what the bottom half looks like tho)

1:08 is the stock video

18:38 no wrinkles:

and Scott BMW Smith got a good one at 12:37

then we go back to wrinkles again at 22:59

and 18:09

As for the X5, I'm more inclined to think it's a design, I have yet to see a perfectly smooth rear seats, and I've seen lots

[BMPHIL]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

That is an X6 and they by and large do not have the wrinkles or at least not in the pattern shown in the X5.

I guess where it could be relevant is that it would be another argument (not that any others are needed since no one really believes they are a defect but rather just like to keep this thread going) for the wrinkles in the X5 to be by design. If the seats were supposed to be the same it would be impossible for them to make the X5's all bad and the X6's all fine.

You totally miss the point, the X5's are NOT all bad, the point is in these days of mass production all the seats should be the same and they are not. If you really believe the wrinkles are by design your standards are not very high and can you please explain why the front seats don't have wrinkles.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BMPHIL

You totally miss the point, the X5's are NOT all bad, the point is in these days of mass production all the seats should be the same and they are not. If you really believe the wrinkles are by design your standards are not very high and can you please explain why the front seats don't have wrinkles.

No, you are missing the point and working off of facts that do not exist. The rear seats of all X5s that have been produced have wrinkles. I would think there may be a handful or so out there without them but those would not matter in the scheme of things.

No one is arguing as to whether the amount of wrinkles are different from vehicle to vehicle, that is not what we are discussing.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Ninefourteener

But, I absolutely 100% do NOT believe it is "intentional". All their "clean-seated" promotional photos and videos, the online builder, and the fact that many dealerships have acknowledged it????

Nope.... "something" in their manufacturing process is causing it.

The wrinkles being caused by something in the manufacturing process would not result in the wrinkles being in every X5 produced. There would need to be a whole chain of very unlikely events for that to happen and so far no one in the "not by design" camp has been able to come up with that situation.

[polychromatic]

Originally Posted by Ninefourteener

Nope.... "something" in their manufacturing process is causing it.

As said earlier, it is likely the seat production is speed dependent. If you sew materials at a rate faster than the feed rate (minute difference) the material can bunch up and you get the wrinkle effect. I also believe that the frictional properties of the different materials play a role. If you were to sew Vernasca, which is a coated leather, then switch to Merino, they’re going to sew differently. I’m sure the vendors know that and probably have different lines for each, dunno!
Of course this is all conjecture, but personally I do not think the wrinkles are intentional, they are a byproduct of production speed and QC. There is too much variation from car to car for it to be intentional.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by polychromatic

Of course this is all conjecture, but personally I do not think the wrinkles are intentional, they are a byproduct of production speed and QC. There is too much variation from car to car for it to be intentional.

Actually there is no variation from car to car in regards to having wrinkles. That is a binary question and since every one has wrinkles the answer would be yes and they are intentional.

What you are addressing is the difference in the wrinkles from vehicle to vehicle and even from left to right in the same vehicle. Of course that is not intentional and no one in this thread has ever argued it was as far as I can remember. As was discussed last week, the difference in wrinkles can be affected by a number of factors with the biggest being the manufacturing process itself.

As I said earlier this year, I think a lack of written wrinkle specs is evident since the QC departments of both Magna and BMW do not seem to know when to reject a seat due to excessive wrinkles as well as substantial differences in appearance.

[BMPHIL]

Originally Posted by turtleboy

actually there is no variation from car to car in regards to having wrinkles. That is a binary question and since every one has wrinkles the answer would be yes and they are intentional.

What you are addressing is the difference in the wrinkles from vehicle to vehicle and even from left to right in the same vehicle. Of course that is not intentional and no one in this thread has ever argued it was as far as i can remember. As was discussed last week, the difference in wrinkles can be affected by a number of factors with the biggest being the manufacturing process itself.

As i said earlier this year, i think a lack of written wrinkle specs is evident since the qc departments of both magna and bmw do not seem to know when to reject a seat due to excessive wrinkles as well as substantial differences in appearance.

unbelievable - answer the question - why none in front seats?. MIGHT TAKE MY GLE BACK AND ASK THEM TO UNSMOOTH THE REAR SEATS.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BMPHIL

unbelievable - answer the question - why none in front seats?.

LOL I know you want to keep this thread going but obviously you are not being serious by asking that question since the front and back seats are not the same type seats.

Besides, the front seats not having wrinkles would only bolster the argument of the back seats wrinkles being by design, not that it needs it. If the manufacturing process, QC departments and host of other departments are so inept when it comes to the back seats why are they so perfect when it comes to the front seats?

[BMPHIL]

Like I said UNBELIEVABLE

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BMPHIL

Like I said UNBELIEVABLE

We all understand that you are not interested in a serious discussion on this topic and are playing the part of a troll in order to try and get people to react but you will need to be much better at it than you are in order to succeed. I would suggest just going into the background and enjoying the information than this forum provides. Cheers.

[homerrr]

Can we at some point start a discussion on why the body panels don't align perfectly?

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by homerrr

Can we at some point start a discussion on why the body panels don't align perfectly?

There seems to be a few that got past QC with misaligned panels. Some were discussed here: https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1620539

[Ninefourteener]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

The wrinkles being caused by something in the manufacturing process would not result in the wrinkles being in every X5 produced. There would need to be a whole chain of very unlikely events for that to happen and so far no one in the "not by design" camp has been able to come up with that situation.

Agreed, but my argument is that they are NOT in "every" X5 produced. I have seen plenty of pictures of X5s with smooth or near-smooth seats. And, considering their promotional photos show them smooth.... I believe that is the way they are intended.

Possible explanations:

1) leather is either too hot or too cold when they are sewn together.
2) Seats are sewn together, and then left to "sit" for too long awaiting installation, so the natural "forming" process is disrupted.
3) Same as #2, but they are not left to sit long enough.
4) Something in the seat requires manipulation of some sort, AFTER the seats have been installed (because no seats ever look the same after you've removed and re-installed them). Wiring harness installation? Seat heaters? Carpet tucking, Etc.
5) Seats are sewn too quickly, causing bunching.
6) Same as #5, but too slowly.
7) The installation robots are compressing the seat when handling.
8) new chemicals used when they switched leather providers, which cause the leather to shrink/expand differently that the previous supplier's.
9) Someone heavy is sitting in the seats while installing something else.... before the seats have had time to "cure".
10) Seats are made in "bulk", and then stacked on one another, causing the ones on the bottom to be compressed.

I can probably think of a few more possible explanations..... But without performing an assessment of the process itself (this is what I do for a living), I would just continue speculating.

In any case, I stand by my argument: "Something" in the manufacturing process is causing this. It is absolutely NOT intentional.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Ninefourteener

Agreed, but my argument is that they are NOT in "every" X5 produced. I have seen plenty of pictures of X5s with smooth or near-smooth seats. And, considering their promotional photos show them smooth.... I believe that is the way they are intended.

Possible explanations:

1) leather is either too hot or too cold when they are sewn together.
2) Seats are sewn together, and then left to "sit" for too long awaiting installation, so the natural "forming" process is disrupted.
3) Same as #2, but they are not left to sit long enough.
4) Something in the seat requires manipulation of some sort, AFTER the seats have been installed (because no seats ever look the same after you've removed and re-installed them). Wiring harness installation? Seat heaters? Etc.
5) Seats are sewn too quickly, causing bunching.
6) Same as #5, but too slowly.
7) The installation robots are compressing the seat when handling.
8) new chemicals used when they switched leather providers, which cause the leather to shrink/expand differently that the previous supplier's.
9) Someone heavy is sitting in the seats while installing something else.... before the seats have had time to "cure".

I can probably think of a few more possible explanations..... But without performing an assessment of the process itself (this is what I do for a living), I would just continue speculating.

In any case, I stand by my argument: "Something" in the manufacturing process is causing this. It is absolutely NOT intentional.

You are basing your position on false data. There have been no production G05's with smooth rear seats when using Vernasca or Merino and no G05s with wrinkles when using Sensatec. It seems like you may have been looking at the retouched photos that were used in some cases. Not a one member here has rear seats without wrinkles and even if 20 did it would not be statistically relevant.


You are missing a huge point in your argument concerning how the wrinkles show up in every seat in two different model years. That would take much more than a flaw in the production process. It would have to include at a minimum the procurement, legal/contract, QC, Design, dealer support, and media relations departments. All of them would have to be working together in ignoring the fact that the seats are not being produced according to the specs that were in the bid. It is just not a plausible theory.

[homerrr]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

There seems to be a few that got past QC with misaligned panels. Some were discussed here: https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1620539

That's about lights...easier fix, but thx

[BMPHIL]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

We all understand that you are not interested in a serious discussion on this topic and are playing the part of a troll in order to try and get people to react but you will need to be much better at it than you are in order to succeed. I would suggest just going into the background and enjoying the information than this forum provides. Cheers.

Apologies Turtle boy, the only person I have issues with on this forum is you and I am not the only one. Your posts are nonsense and you don't read what other people say, it is all about you. It is not just the wrinkly seat posts that you have upset people, to say I am not interested in a serious discussion is rich coming from you, take a look at the insults you have put in your posts and see what I mean.

[amphiprion]

comfort wrinkles

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by BMPHIL

Apologies Turtle boy, the only person I have issues with on this forum is you and I am not the only one. Your posts are nonsense and you don't read what other people say, it is all about you. It is not just the wrinkly seat posts that you have upset people, to say I am not interested in a serious discussion is rich coming from you, take a look at the insults you have put in your posts and see what I mean.

At least you are getting a little more creative in trying to provoke a reaction. Since you have been trying in this thread for almost a year and failing almost consistently, perhaps give a teen forum a go, you might be a bit more successful.

[BMPHIL]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

At least you are getting a little more creative in trying to provoke a reaction. Since you have been trying in this thread for almost a year and failing almost consistently, perhaps give a teen forum a go, you might be a bit more successful.

[LexxM3]

Originally Posted by BMPHIL

Apologies Turtle boy, the only person I have issues with on this forum is you and I am not the only one. Your posts are nonsense and you don't read what other people say, it is all about you. It is not just the wrinkly seat posts that you have upset people, to say I am not interested in a serious discussion is rich coming from you, take a look at the insults you have put in your posts and see what I mean.

I haven't given up on a lot in life, but this is just a forum — I gave up on TurtleBoy long ago. I had him on ignore for a while, but missed the entertainment, so off ignore now. Carry on ...

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by LexxM3

I haven't given up on a lot in life, but this is just a forum — I gave up on TurtleBoy long ago. I had him on ignore for a while, but missed the entertainment, so off ignore now. Carry on ...

And you also came around to agreeing that the wrinkles are there by design.

Originally Posted by LexxM3

Nice. But I think you're right about intent.

[LexxM3]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

And you also came around to agreeing that the wrinkles are there by design.

I don't know if I really agree, but it doesn't matter to me — intentional "design" or manufacturing, it is a defect regardless.