[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by slicky

ECU controls torque output via boost, afr and timing, not rpm. Thats why it's not controling hp output but torque. Yes, it absolutely records torque output as this is what is being regulated. The only way it can exceed the set torque limit is by a modified calibration instructing it to do so. But, if the piggyback is telling the ecu that it is hitting the torque target while it is exceeding it then perhaps all is good.

Google the subject on how the ecu controls power (torque really) output. There are numerous sources for tuning concepts.
Here is first one that popped up on b58
http://https://ecutek.atlassian.net/wiki/sp...8+Tuning+Guide

You really mean ecu “calculate” what the torque should be. It is a open loop calculation or estimation. This sure can be done, but actual output may not be the same. Knowing bmw underestimates the factory output, this calculation unless way off, it probably won’t be a good justification of warranties void. Even tuner do dyno after adjusting ECU for confirmation.

I am not say bmw cannot be nasty. But really proof ist there. The output range ecu parameters can as well be software bug

[cobramite]

The subject of tuning ususally evokes lectures where the finger of wisdom is wagged directly at those of us who dare to even discuss the possibility using these devices. God forbid and "you better not do that or you will lose your almighty warranty because I said so!".
How about you do you, I'll do me as I have yet to have a single problem doing it my way over several decades.

[Higgs Boson]

guys there is a torque model in modern ecms, they are all torque based, used to be airflow based. this means the driver demands a torque value with the pedal and the ecm picks the air, spark, and fuel it takes to acheive that torque request.

if the factory calibration max demanded torque is, let's say, 500 ft lbs, at WOT and the torque model calls for 18psi of boost (more typically mg of air or cylinder charge), 15 degrees of spark lead, and an AFR of 12.0 to get there and someone is running a piggyback that pushes boost (or some other criteria for combustion) higher than the factory calibration calls for BMW will absolutely deny the warranty claim as the vehicle was operating outside of it's intent.

yes, if there is no problem and the engine hasn't blown already, you can remove the piggyback and get your oil changed. if the engine is blown and won't run, it doesn't matter if you're running a flash or a p/back, you're toast.

so what I am saying is, if the engine hasn't blown already and you have a flash, BMW can notate your flash but there is no claim to deny anyways. if you are running a PB and the engine hasn't blown already you have to go through the trouble of removing it when you take the car in so you feel better about your pretend powertrain warranty which doesn't even do anything until you break it and when you do it won't matter anyways because it will be too late.

it doesn't matter what BMW rates the car at vs what it dynos at, that has zero to do with how a torque based ECM functions and records data.

[eelnoraa]

The way I read it, correct me if I misunderstood, bmw log parameter such as boost, spark timing, AFR …. And compare to max torque generation parameters, then determine which one exceed?

But then boost is really the key, right? Stock b58 run max boost 8-10psi?? If ecu log see 15 or 18, sure some turning has happened. Spark timing and AFR are not a good indication of engine exceeding torque spec.

Yes if engine blown, and log says max boost is 18, bmw will definitely deny engine/turbo warranty, maybe transmission too.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

The way I read it, correct me if I misunderstood, bmw log parameter such as boost, spark timing, AFR …. And compare to max torque generation parameters, then determine which one exceed?

But then boost is really the key, right? Stock b58 run max boost 8-10psi?? If ecu log see 15 or 18, sure some turning has happened. Spark timing and AFR are not a good indication of engine exceeding torque spec.

Yes if engine blown, and log says max boost is 18, bmw will definitely deny engine/turbo warranty, maybe transmission too.

Forgive me for not knowing, the way you read what? Not sure what you read.

Anyways, yes on these cars, more boost is the most obvious and easiest way to increase power but spark lead and AFR dialed in is also important for increasing torque and if the signs of a lean mixture and/or preignition are evident you will be in the same boat.

Let's face it, modern cars and calibrations are built well and calibrated well. If you maintain them they are not going to lean out, preignite the mixture or overboost the mechanical limitations of the powertrain without a non factory calibration or at least many miles of abuse and lack of maintenance.

<--- All my cars are tuned (no piggybacks, lol) and modded except for the X5M50 my wife dailys, I don't think she has ever had it over 3000 RPMs. I am not expecting free parts or labor if anything pops. That's on me.

[AusX3]

Absolutely.

Noticed a diff whine at about 5000kms but didn’t repot it to dealer - my stupidity.

Femto unlock BM3, turbo blah blah.

Diff now sounds like an old taxi and BMW won’t honour warranty (replacement diff) because it is flagged as modified.

Now have lawyers looking into it. Considerable more cost than new diff. It’s the principle.

Before all the keyboard warriors pipe in read your warranty papers. I’m sure different in many countries. I’m in Australia

[swainbmw]

Originally Posted by tbolts1010

I've tuned every car i've ever owned and never had an issue with getting warranty work done.

I’ve done the same and never had an issue. I’m one that never returns to the dealership for any service work. It’s either done by myself or by a local shop. I don’t even get the free oil changes I prefer to do myself.

[kfer]

Since I also own a few tuned vehicles, I had the dealer explain how it works and what the warranty is about.
Determining whether the vehicle is tuned actually has 2 stages. If it has been flashed, you will see it immediately when the diagnostic device is connected (number of flashes, checksum, etc.) -> the car will be flagged. With a PiggyBox you don't see it directly, so this is where "suspicion" first arises. According to the service manager, over 20 parameters are logged and if these deviate significantly from expectations, then it becomes suspicious (regardless of whether it is a box or flash). He mentioned the simplest ones, such as: exhaust gas temperature, or deviation between air mass and turbo pressure (this is especially true for piggy, where the boost pressure is faked but the MAF sensor shows the real values).
The guarantee is more interesting. They can reject any warranty for the affected parts (engine, transmission, differential, etc.) because of the tuning. From this point on, you have to prove that the damage has nothing to do with the tuning, but that will be difficult. He said it could only work if it affects parts that have been replaced under warranty on several cars, but no one will give out this information voluntarily.
By the way, he recommended to block the OBD connection (e.g. Theft protection) so that you can't connect the diagnostic device. It worked fine and they were able to update the service history via OTA and my car is not flagged (yet).

[Alan l.]

Originally Posted by kfer

Since I also own a few tuned vehicles, I had the dealer explain how it works and what the warranty is about.
Determining whether the vehicle is tuned actually has 2 stages. If it has been flashed, you will see it immediately when the diagnostic device is connected (number of flashes, checksum, etc.) -> the car will be flagged. With a PiggyBox you don't see it directly, so this is where "suspicion" first arises. According to the service manager, over 20 parameters are logged and if these deviate significantly from expectations, then it becomes suspicious (regardless of whether it is a box or flash). He mentioned the simplest ones, such as: exhaust gas temperature, or deviation between air mass and turbo pressure (this is especially true for piggy, where the boost pressure is faked but the MAF sensor shows the real values).
The guarantee is more interesting. They can reject any warranty for the affected parts (engine, transmission, differential, etc.) because of the tuning. From this point on, you have to prove that the damage has nothing to do with the tuning, but that will be difficult. He said it could only work if it affects parts that have been replaced under warranty on several cars, but no one will give out this information voluntarily.
By the way, he recommended to block the OBD connection (e.g. Theft protection) so that you can't connect the diagnostic device. It worked fine and they were able to update the service history via OTA and my car is not flagged (yet).

Well said and that is my understanding of how it works. While it is harder to detect even piggyback boxes leaves traces behind. Also one thing people need to realize is that when BMW denies your warranty its not on BMW to prove the tune didn't cause the issue. It will be on YOU to do that and that not realistically possible. Hate when these tuners comes out saying they can't deny warranty without proving it yada yada when meanwhile its your car sitting in the service bay non operational while you are going to try to argue with BMW.

If you tune the car you have to be prepared to pay when you break it instead of trying to commit fraud.

[cobramite]

I know someone who has run a JB4 with very aggressive maps on a late model BMW and had a tranmission replaced under warranty with no questions or problems what so ever.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by cobramite

I know someone who has run a JB4 with very aggressive maps on a late model BMW and had a tranmission replaced under warranty with no questions or problems what so ever.

I know someone who ran a JB4 with aggressive maps on a late model BMW and had a transmission claim denied.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by cobramite

I know someone who has run a JB4 with very aggressive maps on a late model BMW and had a tranmission replaced under warranty with no questions or problems what so ever.

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

I know someone who ran a JB4 with aggressive maps on a late model BMW and had a transmission claim denied.

I know someone who ran a JB4 with aggressive maps on a late model BMW and never had a transmission fail.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I know someone who ran a JB4 with aggressive maps on a late model BMW and never had a transmission fail.

Yeah, and that is probably 99.999% of those who use them.

[eelnoraa]

I kind of agree, if BMW can prove you run tune, and you have an engine/turbo or related components issues, they are entitled to deny warranty on these components. It is almost impossible to prove the tune isn't related to the problem. I guess the minutes you mod certain components, do expect warranty is gone for that components. If BMW still honor warranty, call it luck.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I know someone who ran a JB4 with aggressive maps on a late model BMW and never had a transmission fail.

Aren't anecdotes fun? And statistically meaningless!

I've done some dirty dirty things to about 300 various engines and none of them failed. But tunes vs failure isn't the thread. It's failure with a tune vs warranty.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

Aren't anecdotes fun? And statistically meaningless!

I've done some dirty dirty things to about 300 various engines and none of them failed. But tunes vs failure isn't the thread. It's failure with a tune vs warranty.

I was just having fun with my response

if you tune the car and break the engine, expect to pay for it. If you tune the car and your dashboard stops working, BMW will fix it under warranty.

The odds of damaging the engine with a proven tune and the recommended maps are nearly zero. You probably have a higher odds of dying of a car accident on your way to the dealership.

To me, the entire conversation about it is useless since its an endless back and forth on a scenario that will not happen.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I was just having fun with my response

if you tune the car and break the engine, expect to pay for it. If you tune the car and your dashboard stops working, BMW will fix it under warranty.

The odds of damaging the engine with a proven tune and the recommended maps are nearly zero. You probably have a higher odds of dying of a car accident on your way to the dealership.

To me, the entire conversation about it is useless since its an endless back and forth on a scenario that will not happen.

This is extremely well stated.
The subject of tuning invariably brings out the gang who has no intention of ever utilizing an after market power enhancer of any kind but paint a dire picture of blown engines, warranty denials etc. Most of these guys have never changed a tire and posses little to no understanding of how current a ECM/PCM controls the engine and transmission.
"OMG, you are going to lose your warranty", how many times does that need to be said and most often by guys who never get their hands dirty and don't have a clue.

[Alan l.]

Pretty interesting read. There are way more guys that tune the M5 platform so they know a thing or two about blown tuned motors.

https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...t=blown+engine

[swainbmw]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I was just having fun with my response

if you tune the car and break the engine, expect to pay for it. If you tune the car and your dashboard stops working, BMW will fix it under warranty.

The odds of damaging the engine with a proven tune and the recommended maps are nearly zero. You probably have a higher odds of dying of a car accident on your way to the dealership.

To me, the entire conversation about it is useless since its an endless back and forth on a scenario that will not happen.

I have tuned every BMW I’ve ever owned. I never take it off when I go to the dealer they don’t even say anything. I don’t worry about it anymore. If it breaks and they deny me warranty service I guess I’ll have to eat the consequences but it just depends on what dealership you have a relationship with that’s what I have found

[eelnoraa]

Me too. Everyone of mine has a bit of something. Never other to take off when visiting dealer either. I wonder they even know or check unless related components have issue. I also fully prepared to eat consequences.

[swainbmw]

Originally Posted by swainbmw

I have tuned every BMW I’ve ever owned. I never take it off when I go to the dealer they don’t even say anything. I don’t worry about it anymore. If it breaks and they deny me warranty service I guess I’ll have to eat the consequences but it just depends on what dealership you have a relationship with that’s what I have found

Does anybody know what the current charge for the unlock on the ECM from Furmto or is the 22 x5 already unlocked? I believe you have to send it to Finland.

[cobramite]

Originally Posted by swainbmw

Does anybody know what the current charge for the unlock on the ECM from Furmto or is the 22 x5 already unlocked? I believe you have to send it to Finland.

There is supposed to be somebody here in the US who can do this also. Possibly in Texas?