[eluded]

I can't wait to get mine delivered and to drive in the carpool lane. I'll probably drive it slower than Prius owners so I can save electricities.

[wdb]

I'm pretty sure I recall folks test driving Model 3's in the announcement video. Not sure why it would be impossible for someone to say they've driven one.

[Fundguy1]

My beef with teslas are
1. They're electric
2. They're loaded down with gadgets and technojunk
3. They look cheap and plain
4. Overpriced like crazy
5. Poor handling
6. No balls at speed, only at launch
7. Most importantly, they're bought with my money

Beef with electrics
1. Long charge times
2. Poor range
3.They cause a ton of heavy metal polution
4. Quiet to the point of being dangerous to pedestrians

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by catskillclimber

Where are people who don't have a garage or at least own a home going to charge an "affordable" vehicle like this. Plenty of condo, town home, apt dwellers with no easy way to charge at home.

Most can get something installed. Not expensive nor difficult. Condos in my city have had chargers for years.

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by FC4

I assure you he was lying. He was just swinging his dick because he knew he could get away with it since you think he is a "big shot."

Outlining in detail why I am positive he hasn't driven a Model 3 would require dick swinging of my own. Take my word for it.

Oh ok if you say so .. sheesh

[RM7]

Some people irrationally hate electric vehicles. I remember back when it was kind of a pie-in-the-sky idea that we'd have any electric vehicles on the road. Now to see them out there and actually doing it is pretty neat. To me, it's kind of like space travel or one of any other technical achievements. For a while it was talked about and imagined, and now it's common place.

[Fundguy1]

Why do people use the word achievement for electric cars? They've been around longer than ICE cars. The term golf cart comes to mind. Please list the advantages that make it an achievement. Only benefit I can think of that isn't offset by one or several equal opposite detractions is instant torque. Even then, loss of torque happens rapidly. Describing it as the latest gizmo like the 8-track, cassete player, vcr, etc seems more appropriate. People bought these because the lastest gadget only to fade out as they were replaced by something else. To me its just the latest brag gadget because i can't see any other reason they're better. Maybe, maybe if the technology can and does progress they will become viable mainstream competitors to ICE but that's a long way off.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Why do people use the word achievement for electric cars? They've been around longer than ICE cars.

As a viable transportation system within the city and highway with the practicality and range at least comparable to ICE, no, they have not. Mentioning golf carts just makes you look ridiculous.

The advantage that makes it an achievement:

1. can use any fuel source transmitted through power lines, so fossil fuels, hydroeletric, wind, nuclear, geothermal, solar, etc.

2. more efficient than a ICE, even with transmission losses and you no longer need a huge infrastructure of tractor trailers, gas stations, storage tanks, etc, to store the fuel in hundreds of thousands of remote locations. Then there's the fuel that all of these things burn just to deliver the fuel. There might be more infrastructure needed to support electric fully, but it's at least partly there already (unlike hydrogen).

3. it works. These cars (telsas) are on the highway and in the cities and driving every day. Maybe this pisses you off, but I like seeing new technology actually working. If they were on the side of the road dead or blowing up everywhere, then maybe you'd have a point, but they are working well for the most part. It's not a dream anymore, it's reality.

4. to start up a car company from zero and make this work is quite an achievement in and of itself, in a world dominated by the major automotive manufacturers. It's not as simple as just bolting and welding some stuff together, lots of engineering, testing, certification, and hoops to jump through that make this an even greater achievement.

Like I said, for some reason this really seems to piss people off, that the cars are out there driving every day and working and that it's no longer a pipe dream or article in Popular Mechanics about how one day there will be electric cars driving around.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

As a viable transportation system within the city and highway with the practicality and range at least comparable to ICE, no, they have not. Mentioning golf carts just makes you look ridiculous.

The advantage that makes it an achievement:

1. can use any fuel source transmitted through power lines, so fossil fuels, hydroeletric, wind, nuclear, geothermal, solar, etc.

2. more efficient than a ICE, even with transmission losses and you no longer need a huge infrastructure of tractor trailers, gas stations, storage tanks, etc, to store the fuel in hundreds of thousands of remote locations. Then there's the fuel that all of these things burn just to deliver the fuel. There might be more infrastructure needed to support electric fully, but it's at least partly there already (unlike hydrogen).

3. it works. These cars (telsas) are on the highway and in the cities and driving every day. Maybe this pisses you off, but I like seeing new technology actually working. If they were on the side of the road dead or blowing up everywhere, then maybe you'd have a point, but they are working well for the most part. It's not a dream anymore, it's reality.

4. to start up a car company from zero and make this work is quite an achievement in of itself, in a world dominated by the major automotive manufacturers. It's not as simple as just bolting and welding some stuff together, lots of engineering, testing, certification, and hoops to jump through that make this an even greater achievement.

Like I said, for some reason this really seems to piss people off, that the cars are out there driving every day and working and that it's no longer a pipe dream or article in Popular Mechanics about how one day there will be electric cars driving around.

Well said, add to that, most Tesla owners never have to go to a filling station (read supercharger/plug in location), they can simply charge the car at home at night and go about their business, that is a big deal for some people.

Oil change? Nope

Transmission service/clutch replacement? Negative

I would like to have a Tesla for DD (and may in a couple years when new car time comes around again) and something fun for weekend/track days.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Why do people use the word achievement for electric cars?

Kind of like professional basketball too, right? I can go to my local church gym on a Sunday and watch (or even join) them running up and down the court. It's the same thing - there's a hoop and you throw a ball in to get points. So what's the big F-ing deal about Steph Curry and LaBron James?

Then, hell - I get hungry so I go grab a burger at McDonalds. Tastes fantastic, amirite? Hell yes I am. And it's not just me, millions of people love them - they print money for god's sake. So what's all the hype about "clean eating" - STU-pid! For that matter, what's up a with paying $50 for a dinner at a steak house even? F-that. Those chefs are hacks - don't know a thing.

And on the way home I am thinking randomly to myself, "China - are you kidding me?" What's going on there? Shut up with all this talk about China. Bunch-a commies making all kinds of cheap plastic toys. They'll never amount to jack SH*T.

I know, I know. I am going OT, but sometimes the only way to do get anything done these days is to rant about why everyone else is doing it wrong and then go watch Mecum's Auto Auctions on Speed TV with a Bud Light in your hand in your broken recliner.

[fr240]

Additional things people don't consider when shitting on EVs.

1. No warm up time, just go, and go hard right away (how crappy is it to have to wait like 10 mins to get your oil temps up before actually "driving" the car and not hurting it.....even worse for REAL performance cars with really thick oil *ahem* M3s)
2. Even in crazy winter, the car interior can be at whatever temp you want when you get in, no coolant to heat up to deliver heat. Also, same thing applies to air conditioning in advance. No stupid remote starters and all that crap.
3. Crumple zones and energy dissipation without having the engine/transmission in front of you.
4. Low CoG with the battery setup largely in the floor.
5. Ridiculous torque, instantly available (no ICE can ever match this).
6. No lost time from gear changes, ever.
7. Traction control systems can work much faster, and for future models, there may be separate motors for each wheel, meaning true torque vectoring without any of the clunky electromechanical systems and stupid differentials.
8. Regen braking, which takes time to adjust to, but in the end is better than using brake pads, unless you really need to brake hard.
9. NVH characteristics of having an EV drivetrain are better in every way, except for that high pitch noise from what I think is the inverter (not 100% sure).
10. No sloshing gasoline, no gasoline lines, no fuel pump, no belt driven accessories from the ICE, etc.
11. Improved aerodynamics from not having an open nose for a big radiator and no stupid exhaust systems to route (ruining the flat underbody ideal design, which EVs can easily be designed to achieve)
12. No catalytic convertors, turbos, EGR system, vacuum lines, or any of that bullshit

That was a messy brain dump which obviously doesn't cover everything, but shows that there's a lot that's not considered, and as battery technology improves and the infrastructure for charging improves, EVs are the future, not hydrogen. Have you seen the "performance hybrids" in the pipeline? Maybe some of you will be okay with those......

[Alfisti]

Right but none of that matters because a) subsidies are still needed to make them even remotely affordable and b) range anxiety is a real thing. You cannot just fill up, you need to take a lot of time if you run low which is super, super annoying and what is holding electric back.

[PandaM3]

My gateway drug to electric cars has been my leased ugly little Chevy Spark EV. Even though it's only an 80+ mile range it's a pretty a pretty fun little hot hatch for commuting m-f.
- 327 lb/ft of torque
- low center of gravity
- handles great and shoots out of corners
- more than enough range for my commute
- one pedal driving is great for the stop and go traffic when the HOV lane slows down
- I get to use my M3 for the weekends when there is no traffic which keeps costs way down
- I get to drive a car that I don't care about washing... I think I have 6 mos worth of commuting grime on the car now since I last washed it as well as some marks on the rear bumper from getting rear ended which I just shrug off since it wasn't my M3 that got rear ended
- my Magnus Walker/ Urban Outlaw stickers on the front fenders of the EV to give it some street cred

That being said I've got a deposit down on the Model 3 for when my Spark Lease is over. This means I'll have two M3's... (one with a V8 and another with batteries). I just need to decide if I want to order a stripper Model 3 just for commuting and use the rest of my budget for another fun car like a used 911 or used R8 or get a higher spec Model 3 with a nicer interior, 20 inch wheels, and autopilot... don't know if I need a top spec one that would have awd and ludicrous modes.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

As a viable transportation system within the city and highway with the practicality and range at least comparable to ICE, no, they have not. Mentioning golf carts just makes you look ridiculous.

The advantage that makes it an achievement:

1. can use any fuel source transmitted through power lines, so fossil fuels, hydroeletric, wind, nuclear, geothermal, solar, etc.

2. more efficient than a ICE, even with transmission losses and you no longer need a huge infrastructure of tractor trailers, gas stations, storage tanks, etc, to store the fuel in hundreds of thousands of remote locations. Then there's the fuel that all of these things burn just to deliver the fuel. There might be more infrastructure needed to support electric fully, but it's at least partly there already (unlike hydrogen).

3. it works. These cars (telsas) are on the highway and in the cities and driving every day. Maybe this pisses you off, but I like seeing new technology actually working. If they were on the side of the road dead or blowing up everywhere, then maybe you'd have a point, but they are working well for the most part. It's not a dream anymore, it's reality.

4. to start up a car company from zero and make this work is quite an achievement in and of itself, in a world dominated by the major automotive manufacturers. It's not as simple as just bolting and welding some stuff together, lots of engineering, testing, certification, and hoops to jump through that make this an even greater achievement.

Like I said, for some reason this really seems to piss people off, that the cars are out there driving every day and working and that it's no longer a pipe dream or article in Popular Mechanics about how one day there will be electric cars driving around.

Doesn't bother me a bit they are there. It does bother me that my money is buying them.
Let me check off the counter points to your points

1. It uses electrical power. Problem here is the grid is not prepared for a significant increase in useage.

2. Maybe overall it is including the transport of fuels etc. Not sure of that though as I have seen studies where the amount of energy required to generate and deliver the electricity uses more fossil fuels than the current ICE way. And the gas infrastructure must remain now as all gas cannot be replaced by electrics. The gas infrastructure is there already. The electric is not. Finding a charge station can be daunting and inconvenient comparitively.

3. Its works for some, definitely not all. What about trucking, towing, or soneone like ne who drives over 500 miles a day a dozen or more times a month? Good for city commuters but not for a large subset of the population.

4. He did do a good job at this. But that's not an argument to buy his product.

So again, maybe in 20 years when we have 3 min charge times, ability to have level torque amounts at speed, towing, charging stations as prevalent as gas stations, 400+ mile range, a grid that can handle the power, and competitive pricing without subsidies and I'd change my mind.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Kind of like professional basketball too, right? I can go to my local church gym on a Sunday and watch (or even join) them running up and down the court. It's the same thing - there's a hoop and you throw a ball in to get points. So what's the big F-ing deal about Steph Curry and LaBron James?

Then, hell - I get hungry so I go grab a burger at McDonalds. Tastes fantastic, amirite? Hell yes I am. And it's not just me, millions of people love them - they print money for god's sake. So what's all the hype about "clean eating" - STU-pid! For that matter, what's up a with paying $50 for a dinner at a steak house even? F-that. Those chefs are hacks - don't know a thing.

And on the way home I am thinking randomly to myself, "China - are you kidding me." What's going on there? Shut up with all this talk about China. Bunch-a commies making all kinds of cheap plastic toys. They'll never amount to jack SH*T.

I know, I know. I am going OT, but sometimes the only way to do get anything done these days is to rant about why everyone else is doing it wrong and then go watch Mecum's Auto Auctions on Speed TV with a Bud Light in your hand in your broken recliner.

Nothing at all what i was saying. An achievement to me in this context would to be to create something vastly superior, not something that is equivalent or subpar vs what is already in place.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

1. It uses electrical power. Problem here is the grid is not prepared for a significant increase in useage.

The grid has been an embarassment for decades. Obama wanted to throw money at it but the Party of No stomped their feet. Maybe Dumbkopf will have better luck.

2. Maybe overall it is including the transport of fuels etc. Not sure of that though as I have seen studies where the amount of energy required to generate and deliver the electricity uses more fossil fuels than the current ICE way. And the gas infrastructure must remain now as all gas cannot be replaced by electrics. The gas infrastructure is there already. The electric is not. Finding a charge station can be daunting and inconvenient comparitively.

Tesla is building its own infrastructure. I mean, holy sh*t. Think about that for a couple of minutes.

3. Its works for some, definitely not all.

But for those for whom it does work, it works very very well. Adoption will engender growth. There wasn't a gas station every 1/2 mile in 1903.

Good for city commuters but not for a large subset of the population.

There's this guy, moneyed, who lives in the wilds of Pennsylvania and works in NYC. He commutes in a Tesla. "City commuters" myth exploded.

4. He did do a good job at this. But that's not an argument to buy his product.

It's a good product.

So again, maybe in 20 years [...]

In 20 years you will hardly recognize the place, there will be so much electric this and solar that. Or those of us who survive will all be holed up in caves fighting a zombie apocalypse. I suppose we'll see.

[xQx]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Doesn't bother me a bit they are there. It does bother me that my money is buying them.
Let me check off the counter points to your points

1. It uses electrical power. Problem here is the grid is not prepared for a significant increase in useage.

2. Maybe overall it is including the transport of fuels etc. Not sure of that though as I have seen studies where the amount of energy required to generate and deliver the electricity uses more fossil fuels than the current ICE way. And the gas infrastructure must remain now as all gas cannot be replaced by electrics. The gas infrastructure is there already. The electric is not. Finding a charge station can be daunting and inconvenient comparitively.

3. Its works for some, definitely not all. What about trucking, towing, or soneone like ne who drives over 500 miles a day a dozen or more times a month? Good for city commuters but not for a large subset of the population.

So again, maybe in 20 years when we have 3 min charge times, ability to have level torque amounts at speed, towing, charging stations as prevalent as gas stations, 400+ mile range, a grid that can handle the power, and competitive pricing without subsidies and I'd change my mind.

Okay, 1) you're most likely 100% correct. Depends from country to country. However, in some countries (like Australia) rooftop solar has put pressure on the grid because we're now _generating_ more than the grid can handle during the day. It's now reached the point where there are no government subsidies, and people still buy rooftop solar. Energy storage is a problem - Nobody is charging their Tesla's during the day. For most countries, this isn't actually a concern, they're upgrading the grid bit-by-bit, and the decentralization of energy generation and migration of generation towards the end of the grid where it's previously just been consumption is actually a good thing. Our energy companies are upgrading the 'last mile' of the grid, for a more 'neighbourhood' centric generate/consume capability, rather than the old city-wide generate miles and miles from the consumption design.

tl;dr: Thanks to the rapid uptake of solar, this is less of an issue than you'd think. Energy storage from day to night, and having 'base-load' generators which can be turned up at night and down during the day are the real issues here, but ones that electricity companies have more than enough money and time to deal with.

2) Two parts. 1, Environment:

If you live in a country which burns dirty, dirty coal, it's lineball. If you're country invests in renewable energy, battery powered cars (yes, even with their lithium batteries) are better for the environment. Gas is always going to be a fossil feul. Grid energy is not.

2) cost: I'm Australian, so forgive the metric. Google tells me you pay 85c for a litre of gas and 12c for one kWh of electricity. The tesla gets 426km out of 85kWh. A similar car driven by a normal driver gets 426km out of 32 litres of gas.
32 litres x 0.85 = $27.20 for 400km.
85kWh x 0.12 = $10.20.

Thus, it's far cheaper to fill up your Tesla.

2.5) Charging: most people don't travel more than 400km in a day. Most people don't travel anywhere near that. This is a critical point: To most Tesla owners, charge stations are a non-issue. They never need them. They plug their car in overnight to charge at home. So for the one trip every month or three where you need to go inconveniently out of your way to find a charge station, you've saved having to stop in at the local gas station at least four times.

Charging can be done in 3 minutes. You swap the battery. Just because the company that pioneered this technology went bankrupt, don't blame the technology. The key issue for battery-swap is the point above: Before buying an EV, you think this is a must-have technology. As soon as you own one, you charge your car every night and never think about battery swap again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

However, when you scale up to Electric trucks, this technology becomes more viable. Think dedicated solar energy properties along the interstate with a truck battery-swap bay. Your truck batteries are swapped in and out in the same way we now get our BBQ gas bottles filled.

3) Absolutely, yes. 100%. For quite some time, you will still have gas powered cars on the road. It'll be a gentle transition. Consumer battery-swap might become popular again, but only once the price of EV cars come down. Until it's as popular as gas stations, a percentage of the population will have a gas powered car. But for many, it will be their _second_ car.

[Fundguy1]

1. The us mostly isnt a solar friendly environment. You'd need to cover the state if Nevada to cover our power requirements too.
2. I'm in the camp that electrics are far worse for the environment than gasoline powered. Carbon emmissions global warming is a 100% myth hoax. Deal with it. However heavy metals for lithium batteries isn't. They create enviromental catastrophes in their manufacturing.
2. Again lol. The cost I'm quoting is total cist if the vehicle and operation. Right now you pay more for an electric and electricity than an equivalent gas powered and gasoline. The only thing that makes electrics and hybrids affordable is subsidies. My money buying someone else's car. That's bs.
2.5 For an average commuter car ok. For someine like me who covers half the state of Floridaas a territory, or someone who uses a truck to tow, etc, they suck.
3. A second car maybe. Just
-make it handle
-get the charging problem fixed
-give it a pair if balls over 60 mph
-make them pleasing to the eye inside and out. Right now they're boring outside and hideous inside
-get your liberal snowflake tree hugging hand out of my pocket and kill the subsidies. If they survive then so be it.

Then maybe.

[Red Bread]

Wait, ICE cars aren't subsidized? Sure feels like every manufacturer gets sizable bailouts, tax incentives, labor concessions and similar handouts to keep an ancient, dirty product viable so we can continue to suck down OPEC's source of cash.

[Red Bread]

Pretty sure this is more than Tesla has received to date. And this is just a single list of US payments.

http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/14...plants-netted-$36b-in-subsidies

Your argument is tired, wrong and so oft repeated I bet we could get a bot to just continue your posts. Even the response to this.

[xQx]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

2. I'm in the camp that electrics are far worse for the environment than gasoline powered. Carbon emmissions global warming is a 100% myth hoax. Deal with it. However heavy metals for lithium batteries isn't. They create enviromental catastrophes in their manufacturing.

Nope. Just Nope.

Look, if the world's international body of scientists have come to a certain conclusion, but you still believe it's a hoax, there ain't nothing anybody on an Internet forum is going to be able to do you to convince you.

I'm out.

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

2.5 For an average commuter car ok. For someine like me who covers half the state of Floridaas a territory, or someone who uses a truck to tow, etc, they suck.

Did I mention battery swap? Which fixes the charging problem by swapping the battery. Brings charge times down to three minutes. ... pretty sure I mentioned battery swap.

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

3. A second car maybe. Just
-make it handle
-get the charging problem fixed
-give it a pair if balls over 60 mph
-make them pleasing to the eye inside and out. Right now they're boring outside and hideous inside
-get your liberal snowflake tree hugging hand out of my pocket and kill the subsidies. If they survive then so be it.

Then maybe.

[fr240]

LMAO this thread is so entertaining.