[FredBa]

I can see the logic in going to a fifth wheel. From an engineering perspective, the hitch location over the axle and higher pin weight makes it inherently very stable. It's a game changer.

Personally, aside from the size and low mpg of such a combo, I just don't like driving a 3/4 ton. If I ever go big, I think I would look at a class A diesel pusher, towing a small car to drive around when camping.

However, I'm currently looking at upgrading to the xDrive50e, for which I would get extensive BMW coverage that covers drivetrain etc. (towing is wearing down, no matter what car), to tow an Airstream 23FB. The plan is for my wife and I to work from the road for a while, seeing Montana, Washington, Oregon, ...

[bono]

I am using Propride hitch (https://store.propridehitch.com/), which is a pivot point projection hitch. In other words, it "projects" the pivot point forward to the rear axle of the tow vehicle. It basically feels like a 5th wheel towing. Sway is not possible with this hitch.

Anyway, anybody who is interested in towing without trucks should visit Can-am website. A lot of blog post about proper hitch setup, what are the real towing capabilities of the vehicles, etc. Andy Thomson is the expert. When Porsche wanted to set up Cayenne with Airstream, they asked him to do it, even though Porsche has buildings full of engineers.

https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/

https://www.canamrv.ca/towing-expertise/videos/

[FredBa]

Looks perfect but did I read it right that the Propride is a 200lbs hitch? To make that work with an airstream either the factory tow bar would have to be reinforced or on the Airstream end I'd have to get aluminum propane tanks, Lithium batteries and travel with the spare wheel in the dinette at a minimum.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by FredBa

Looks perfect but did I read it right that the Propride is a 200lbs hitch? To make that work with an airstream either the factory tow bar would have to be reinforced or on the Airstream end I'd have to get aluminum propane tanks, Lithium batteries and travel with the spare wheel in the dinette at a minimum.

The total weight of the ProPride 3P® hitch is 195 lbs. That is remarkably high, especially for use on a vehicle with a total payload of 996 lb.

IOW, if you attach this hitch to a 45e and put four 200 lb adults in the car, you have exactly 1 lb of payload capacity remaining without even hooking up a trailer.

[FredBa]

My math would work out as:

xDrive50e payload: 1,300lbs (to be verified, but e.g. https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/x5/2024/...eatures-specs/)

passengers: 320lbs - I'm a marathon runner and my wife is 5'
stuff in the car: 100lbs
hitch: 200lbs

Net: 680lbs available tongue weight left

Anyway, I think for a small-ish trailer like the 23FB the Propride would be overkill

[bono]

This is not how it works. ProPride is longer than a regular hitch. When the weight distribution is engaged, it transfers more weight back to the trailer. Even without engaging, the additional length compensate a lot of the added weight of PP.

This was verified by many PP users. If you are using Facebook, join Propride group. You can see a number of real life examples when people reported that the PP adds ca. 40-50 lbs to the tongue weight (generally less than a typical WDH).

Making a tongue weight lighter can be beneficial regardless whether you are using PP or any other WDH. I installed lithium batteries inside the trailer and I am using 20 lbs propane cylinders instead of 30 lbs to keep the TW around 11-12%.

Originally Posted by FredBa

Looks perfect but did I read it right that the Propride is a 200lbs hitch? To make that work with an airstream either the factory tow bar would have to be reinforced or on the Airstream end I'd have to get aluminum propane tanks, Lithium batteries and travel with the spare wheel in the dinette at a minimum.

[bono]

- actual payload of 50e should be higher, verify at CAT scale. Anyway, payload is not important when using WDH. Tires and axles limits are important.

- PP is not adding 200 lbs to tongue weight.

- true that for 23FB you don't need PP for stability when towing with X5. I mentioned PP in response to somebody who mentioned 5th wheel stability. PP is just providing this without hitching up a 5th wheel.

Originally Posted by FredBa

My math would work out as:

xDrive50e payload: 1,300lbs (to be verified, but e.g. https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/x5/2024/...eatures-specs/)

passengers: 320lbs - I'm a marathon runner and my wife is 5'
stuff in the car: 100lbs
hitch: 200lbs

Net: 680lbs available tongue weight left

Anyway, I think for a small-ish trailer like the 23FB the Propride would be overkill

[FredBa]

I have to admit that the video ProPride features on their website of a psycho in a semi hitting someone's trailer equipped with their hitch is impressive (

).

[ScaldedDog]

Originally Posted by bono

Anyway, payload is not important when using WDH.

Of course it is. Post up your per axle CAT scale numbers empty for both your X5 and trailer, and hooked up.

Mark

[bono]

I know, I know... There are people who do not know what payload is. Then there are people who discover payload category and will say that you can't go beyond payload (otherwise something will explode). Some even put their limitations (e.g. 80%) what they want to use of the payload. Usually, I see this as a way to convince wife to buy a bigger truck. Then, you have people who can connect the dots between payload which is (subjective) number that manufacturer gives for the worst case scenario (a heavy cargo hauled in the vehicle) and not really reflecting forces applied on the axles when using WDH. Gross weight of the vehicle, axles and tires limits should not be exceeded.

Anyway, payload should not be a problem in case of 50e as it has over 1,700 lbs (780 kg) payload. (https://www.bmw.de/de/neufahrzeuge/x...n.html#tab-5-0)

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

Of course it is. Post up your per axle CAT scale numbers empty for both your X5 and trailer, and hooked up.

Mark

[ScaldedDog]

Originally Posted by bono

I know, I know... There are people who do not know what payload is. Then there are people who discover payload category and will say that you can't go beyond payload (otherwise something will explode). Some even put their limitations (e.g. 80%) what they want to use of the payload. Usually, I see this as a way to convince wife to buy a bigger truck. Then, you have people who can connect the dots between payload which is (subjective) number that manufacturer gives for the worst case scenario (a heavy cargo hauled in the vehicle) and not really reflecting forces applied on the axles when using WDH. Gross weight of the vehicle, axles and tires limits should not be exceeded.

Anyway, payload should not be a problem in case of 50e as it has over 1,700 lbs (780 kg) payload. (https://www.bmw.de/de/neufahrzeuge/x...n.html#tab-5-0)

Sooo...., I didn't see any numbers in there. What are they?

Mark

[bono]

Sooo, are you payload police? Why would I bother to try to find CAT scale ticket from 2016 or 2017?

I provided you with information about 50e payload (BMW source, so should be reliable). As a payload policeman, do you see any issue with payload when towing with a 50e?

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

Sooo...., I didn't see any numbers in there. What are they?

Mark

[streborx]

WDH = weight distribution hitch. If this was capable of augmenting the payload or tongue weight specs, it would be called a WAH for weight augmentation hitch.

WDH equalizes the weight distribution between the axles. It can't magically reinforce the strength of the vehicle's frame or lessen the weight of the towed vehicle.

[jad03060]

To force more weight on the front axle, the lever arms apply torque to the chassis. IF the chassis is designed for that, it should be fine. BMW has not indicated the X5 chassis in the G05 was designed for that torque as evidenced by the tow rating sticker and user's manual. What may work for previous versions of the X5 or the X7 today, does not mean that it works reliably UNDER ALL CONDITIONS on the X5 G05. Cross a big dip or an angle change, and the torque could start to bend things. The shear stresses are one thing, twisting is an entirely different thing. Worst case, the flexing back and forth fractures something like a weld, or glue joint, or the metal involved.

A big thing with a WDH is to help the tow vehicle sit level so the brakes, lights, steering work as designed. There are other ways to achieve that than a WDH. Stay within the stated specs and you won't overload an axle, tires, or chassis. Exceed that and all bets are off.

[ScaldedDog]

Originally Posted by bono

Sooo, are you payload police? Why would I bother to try to find CAT scale ticket from 2016 or 2017?

I provided you with information about 50e payload (BMW source, so should be reliable). As a payload policeman, do you see any issue with payload when towing with a 50e?

So you don't know, or don't want to fess up to being overweight on the internet. That's cool. Without data, though, yours is just another opinion, albeit a shrill and verbose one.

For the adults still in the room, the 45e will tow pretty well, *for what it is*. It's relatively heavy, has a long wheelbase for its size, good brakes and lots of power. Stay within its limits and it'll do fine. It's not a truck, though, so it's going to suck at things a truck would do well. For example, and as a guy on here discovered, backing much of a trailer up a grade will cause problems. Low range in a truck makes that a non-issue.

Knowing how much your stuff weighs is just part of the deal if you want tow near your vehicle's limits reliably, legally and safely, and it's easy to do. Truck stops have CAT scales you can use for cheap, and a lot of rock yards will let you use theirs for free if you don't need a report. It's an hour well spent, and requires zero specialized knowledge. Just weigh all three axles (front, rear and trailer (even if tandem)), then dump the trailer in the yard and weigh your tow vehicle. A little simple math will tell you your trailer's actual weight, your tongue weight, your tow vehicle's actual weight with the trailer hooked up, and each axle's share of that weight. If you use a WDH (I wouldn't with an X5, but you do you), you'll know if you have it setup correctly. The hardest part will be reaching the button on a CAT scale, as most are setup for semi drivers to reach from their window.

Have fun and enjoy your trips! If you'll excuse me, I have a trailer to load. Mine will be dangling off the back of my Excursion, though.

Mark

[bono]

Let's take step back. I said that payload is not that important limitation when towing with WDH and one should follow tires and axles limits. You didn't agree with this saying that payload is obviously important. Ok, we can agree to disagree. I shared link showing payload of 50e (over 1,700 lbs) and asking whether you expected any issue with payload when towing with 50e. You didn't answer, but instead you are chasing me about my CAT scale ticket. What my CAT scale ticket from 2016 or 2017 when I was towing with E70 would bring into the conversation or what kind of argument would it be for whether or not payload is important when towing? Some "adults" are using strange logic. Again, 50e which is focus of the discussion has massive payload and it should not matter whether or not you agree with my statement about importance of payload.

I've spent hundreds if not thousands hours researching the topic of towing a large trailer with X5. I read thousands FUD posts about "issues" when towing a large trailer with X5. Fortunately, I didn't stop with listening to arm chair engineers. If I did, probably I would buy half ton truck. After 3 months I would come to the conclusion that it was too small to tow my trailer. I would switch to 3/4 ton which I would hate for poor handling and everything else that makes driving a torture.

I contacted people who have actual experience with this topic. One of them is Andy Thomson from Can-Am. He set up hundreds of German SUV for towing large trailers. His opinion is that porsche cayenne and X5 are the best SUVs for towing. He sends his daughter with his Jaguar (sedan, don't remember the model) with 27' Airstream for camping, as he thinks that Jags handles towing better than trucks (he has trucks in his fleet). It is eye opening when you watch videos on this website and read his posts. I know, this may be shocking for people repeating "only trucks can tow" mantra.

Apart from Andy, I suggest reading posts withidl who did over 100k towing miles with his X5 and 33' Airsteam (8,000 lbs). I talked with a few X5 owners from Airstream forum.

If somebody gets through the FUD noise, it would be very rewarding to use X5 as tow vehicle.

Please do focus on loading your trailer. We don't want you to forget a ything for your trip. I just went through the unloading process after nice camping in Mammoth Lakes. Bimmer did great as always.

Originally Posted by ScaldedDog

So you don't know, or don't want to fess up to being overweight on the internet. That's cool. Without data, though, yours is just another opinion, albeit a shrill and verbose one.

For the adults still in the room, the 45e will tow pretty well, *for what it is*. It's relatively heavy, has a long wheelbase for its size, good brakes and lots of power. Stay within its limits and it'll do fine. It's not a truck, though, so it's going to suck at things a truck would do well. For example, and as a guy on here discovered, backing much of a trailer up a grade will cause problems. Low range in a truck makes that a non-issue.

Knowing how much your stuff weighs is just part of the deal if you want tow near your vehicle's limits reliably, legally and safely, and it's easy to do. Truck stops have CAT scales you can use for cheap, and a lot of rock yards will let you use theirs for free if you don't need a report. It's an hour well spent, and requires zero specialized knowledge. Just weigh all three axles (front, rear and trailer (even if tandem)), then dump the trailer in the yard and weigh your tow vehicle. A little simple math will tell you your trailer's actual weight, your tongue weight, your tow vehicle's actual weight with the trailer hooked up, and each axle's share of that weight. If you use a WDH (I wouldn't with an X5, but you do you), you'll know if you have it setup correctly. The hardest part will be reaching the button on a CAT scale, as most are setup for semi drivers to reach from their window.

Have fun and enjoy your trips! If you'll excuse me, I have a trailer to load. Mine will be dangling off the back of my Excursion, though.

Mark

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by bono

- actual payload of 50e should be higher, verify at CAT scale. Anyway, payload is not important when using WDH. Tires and axles limits are important.

There's a huge disconnect here on the payload. My '23 45e shows a total of 996 lbs on the door sticker, which is a far cry from what you've been claiming. There's no way they doubled the payload from '23 to '24.

- PP is not adding 200 lbs to tongue weight.

The website literally says that it weighs 195 lbs. This weight needs to be subtracted from the payload rating to be within the operating limits of the vehicle.

[bono]

This is not what "I am claiming". I provided a link to BMW website.

Originally Posted by tooloud10

There's a huge disconnect here on the payload. My '23 45e shows a total of 996 lbs on the door sticker, which is a far cry from what you've been claiming. There's no way they doubled the payload from '23 to '24.

You are wrong - the weight on the website is the shipping weight. I already mentioned how much ProPride adds to the tongue weight based on actual measurements of various users. Please understand how the tongue weight depends on the distance from the trailer axles. We can have a follow up discussion then.

Originally Posted by tooloud10

The website literally says that it weighs 195 lbs. This weight needs to be subtracted from the payload rating to be within the operating limits of the vehicle.

[jad03060]

For a particular trailer, the tongue weight is what it is. You can manipulate it by how you load the trailer's contents YOU add, but the factory listed tongue weight is the basic trailer as delivered. Throw cargo into the trailer, depending on whether it is ahead of the trailer's axle(s) or behind will vary the tongue weight. Load it evenly, ahead and behind that axle, and the tongue weight remains the same.

A WDH transfers some weight by making the vehicle:trailer connection more rigid via the lever arms. This puts torque onto the chassis, that, if it is designed for it, should be fine. If it isn't, can be problematic.

One would think that BMW would certify the X5 for use with a WDH if it was possible, as it would make it more desirable to the market. They haven't. They did on the X7, so one can assume they understand what it takes. Over engineering may mask that deficiency in some cases, but maybe not all.

[bono]

Are you sharing general Sunday thoughts about tongue weight or are you commenting about any particular posts? The most recent posts are about adding weight distribution and how it affects tongue weight. PP is a specific design WDH. It adds significant lengths to the tongue of the trailer. This affect tongue weight.

I will not even comment (again) about using WDH with X5. I prefer to discuss this with people having actual experience than people sharing FUD.

Originally Posted by jad03060

For a particular trailer, the tongue
weight is what it is. You can manipulate it by how you load the trailer's contents YOU add, but the factory listed tongue weight is the basic trailer as delivered. Throw cargo into the trailer, depending on whether it is ahead of the trailer's axle(s) or behind will vary the tongue weight. Load it evenly, ahead and behind that axle, and the tongue weight remains the same.

A WDH transfers some weight by making the vehicle:trailer connection more rigid via the lever arms. This puts torque onto the chassis, that, if it is designed for it, should be fine. If it isn't, can be problematic.

One would think that BMW would certify the X5 for use with a WDH if it was possible, as it would make it more desirable to the market. They haven't. They did on the X7, so one can assume they understand what it takes. Over engineering may mask that deficiency in some cases, but maybe not all.

[aaaaaaaaaz]

U.S. owner manual, 45e vs 50e.

Payload did increase quite a lot, decomposition of the reason

1) 50e curb weight is slightly lower than 45e (5573 vs 5646 lb)
2) 50e front axle allowed weight does not change meaningfully (3153 vs 3142)
3) 50e rear axle allowed weight increased significantly (4233 vs 3968)

Thus payload increased from 937lb in 45e to 1323lb in 50e

So, did BMW beefed up the rear axle for 50e by quite a bit? Did they change the rear air suspension set up?

[FredBa]

Another data point: the xDrive30e (X3) had 903lbs payload and no air suspension. Tow limit with factory hitch was not derated versus other X3s (4,400lbs / 441lbs).

It seems strange the xDrive45e's payload is barely higher compared to the X3 hybrid. In Europe its payload (zuladung in German) is always showing above 1,400lbs, I've seen it quoted from 640kg to 715kg, likely depending on the definition.

You really have to wonder what the issue is/was.