BMW X5
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-30-2020, 08:22 AM   #45
dkerr
Enlisted Member
United_States
5
Rep
31
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40, '15 X3, '16 Mini
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc.bmw View Post
Oversimplified math (no interest / fees / etc):
45% of 75k = $33,750 (3y cost of depreciation) = $937.50 / month
With $7500 tax credit = $26,250 (3y cost of depreciation) = $729 / month
There are (at least) two problems with lease/buy math. One is the assumption that you can trade in a car for the same amount that BMW FS use as residual value. I have never seen that, at least not on a trade, maybe on a private sale (but then you lose sales tax benefit of a trade). I rather suspect that would wipe out the tax credit.

The second is the lost opportunity value of all the money you have tied up in a depreciating asset. That $40K cash down could be invested somewhere.

If I was looking at a $35K car then yes, I would buy. But for a $70K+ I think leasing makes more sense (unless you plan to keep for 6+years).
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 08:27 AM   #46
dkerr
Enlisted Member
United_States
5
Rep
31
Posts

Drives: '18 X3 M40, '15 X3, '16 Mini
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by codex57 View Post
Of course, it also helps that I have a X3 so I can feel what the weight difference does and I'm familiar with the electric motor punch cuz I have a Model 3.
Yup, I am coming off a X3 M40 so already I am looking at lower power in a heavier vehicle. I owned a 2nd gen X5 back in the naught's and it felt under powered, so I went to a 5-series for the lighter weight. Now I am back looking at 540 and X5 again... engine power is up considerably since the mid-2000's so it doesn't feel under powered anymore -- but it is surely quite a bit different than the X3 M40.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 08:31 AM   #47
RocketGoBoom
Private
85
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 xDrive45e
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GolfR17 View Post
I went back and forth a few times deciding between 45e and 40i. Leasing so no tax credit.
The lease cost per month should reflect the $7,500 tax credit. The leasing bank is acting very shady if they do not. The tax credit is very well known in the industry already.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 11:15 AM   #48
jc.bmw
Private
10
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 45e
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

iTrader: (0)

BMW financial services is not currently adding the tax credit as a credit towards a lease.

I went for a purchase instead and got 0.9 APR. So I financed the full amount thinking I can do better than 0.9% yearly with my own investments.

The question is really if I can get back 55% of the original value in 3 years on a trade in deal. It seems tentative.. I do expect some loss there but not a $7500 loss. What will happen is probably that I’ll be keeping the car for longer.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 11:23 AM   #49
regCT
Private
10
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: G05 X5 M Sport; E92 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjak92 View Post
I'm sorry that's just a stupid way of thinking things through, this isn't a small track car where lb/kg makes any difference. A 45e is bought for economy, not weight savings
With all due respect I think your way of rationalizing an extra 800 lbs is pretty stupid. An X5 is a fairly agile mid size SUV and that is a primary reason while many people buy it. If you're ok with always driving around with the equivalent of four 200 lb people inside that's fine. But don't act like it has no affect on handling and agility.

Last edited by regCT; 11-11-2020 at 04:55 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 11:52 AM   #50
moodyhank82
Private First Class
55
Rep
147
Posts

Drives: G05 45e
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketGoBoom View Post
The lease cost per month should reflect the $7,500 tax credit. The leasing bank is acting very shady if they do not. The tax credit is very well known in the industry already.
Outside of the i3, BMW FS is not passing any of the tax credit savings to the customers on PHEV leases. Lease money factor is also higher than the interest that they charge on the financing option. I don't think that is being shady, BMW FS is clearly favoring financing over leasing (perhaps they do not want to carry the residual risk) and indirectly telling the customers not to lease if they want the best financing terms.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 01:32 PM   #51
Spencer518
Private First Class
Spencer518's Avatar
United_States
66
Rep
157
Posts

Drives: 2021 X5 45e
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by regCT View Post
With all due respect I think your way of rationalizing an extra 800 lbs is pretty stupid. An X5 is a fairly agile mid size SUV and that is a primary reason while many people buy it. If you're ok with always driving around with the equivalent of four 200 lb people inside that's fine. Bur don't act like it has no affect on handling and agility.
It's more like the equivalent of 4 people strapped to the underside, resulting in more weight, but also a lower center of gravity than the other X5 variants.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 01:36 PM   #52
sahajesh
Colonel
sahajesh's Avatar
United Kingdom
903
Rep
2,614
Posts

Drives: 340i Grigio Minerale
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Sheffield, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer518 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by regCT View Post
With all due respect I think your way of rationalizing an extra 800 lbs is pretty stupid. An X5 is a fairly agile mid size SUV and that is a primary reason while many people buy it. If you're ok with always driving around with the equivalent of four 200 lb people inside that's fine. Bur don't act like it has no affect on handling and agility.
It's more like the equivalent of 4 people strapped to the underside, resulting in more weight, but also a lower center of gravity than the other X5 variants.
But still 4 people - that's the point. Where they are strapped to affects handling when you are throwing the car around.

Why carry the extra weight - that's the problem with PHEVs.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 02:00 PM   #53
sjak92
First Lieutenant
sjak92's Avatar
United Kingdom
112
Rep
329
Posts

Drives: G05 30d M Sport MY2020
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by regCT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjak92 View Post
I'm sorry that's just a stupid way of thinking things through, this isn't a small track car where lb/kg makes any difference. A 45e is bought for economy, not weight savings
With all due respect I think your way of rationalizing an extra 800 lbs is pretty stupid. An X5 is a fairly agile mid size SUV and that is a primary reason while many people buy it. If you're ok with always driving around with the equivalent of four 200 lb people inside that's fine. Bur don't act like it has no affect on handling and agility.
You must be joking, X5 and "agile" don't belong in the same paragraph, yet alone sentence.

If you are concerned about 800lbs worth of weight, get a smaller car and in all fairness, the 45e feels far more brisk on acceleration than a 40i. If you require agility in cornering, you're genuinely in the wrong car
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 02:03 PM   #54
codex57
Second Lieutenant
69
Rep
200
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 30i (sold), Tesla 3
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahajesh View Post
But still 4 people - that's the point. Where they are strapped to affects handling when you are throwing the car around.

Why carry the extra weight - that's the problem with PHEVs.
That's the common, but easily dispelled, complaint against EVs. Drive a Tesla or Taycan and you'll understand. Or if you're into motorsports, just look at the arguments over the rules on ballast. Where you stick that weight becomes far more important than the weight itself. Sure, in an ideal world, cars would all be made like Lotus and be super lightweight. It's currently not possible, but if you place it correctly, the increase in power you can get from electric motors allows you to use that weight to your advantage.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 05:34 PM   #55
jc.bmw
Private
10
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 45e
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

iTrader: (0)

Bad language aside, 800lbs extra is a bit of a concern, particularly in the depleted battery scenario. Basically in any trip longer than 30 miles the 45e is a heavier vehicle with a less powerful engine.

After many test drives, I opted for the 45e. The drive experience is great with the electric engine's torque and quiet ride in the city. I’m getting a better ride for 80% of my driving experience. I can happily live with more weight and less HP for the other 20%, specially given that the torque from the ICE is the same as in the 40i.

A feature I wish the 45e had is “Use ICE-only above X mph” and I’d choose 50mph for ICE to kick in and disable the electric motor. I want to preserve the battery for when I get on to local roads.

That battery management option doesn’t work seamlessly for this, as I don’t want to have to activate it manually and I don’t want ICE to actively charge the battery.

Last edited by jc.bmw; 10-30-2020 at 06:28 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 06:36 PM   #56
TXSchnee
Lieutenant
297
Rep
489
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc.bmw View Post
Bad language aside, 800lbs extra is a bit of a concern, particularly in the depleted battery scenario. Basically in any trip longer than 30 miles the 45e is a heavier vehicle with a less powerful engine.

After many test drives, I opted for the 45e. The drive experience is great with the electric engine's torque and quiet ride in the city. I'm getting a better ride for 80% of my driving experience. I can happily live with more weight and less HP for the other 20%, specially given that the torque from the ICE is the same as in the 40i.

A feature I wish the 45e had is "Use ICE-only above X mph" and I'd choose 50mph for ICE to kick in and disable the electric motor. I want to preserve the battery for when I get on to local roads.

That battery management option doesn't work seamlessly for this, as I don't want to have to activate it manually and I don't want ICE to actively charge the battery.
All PHEV run better, and are more economical if you drive in hybrid setting instead of pure electric. If you have a city center that requires electric only, that is when you shift to electric. If you want as much all electric driving as possible, you have to go full BEV. If you drive the most efficient way (hybrid setting) then you shouldn't run out of charge on normal trips and the weight penalty of the batteries is negligible.
__________________
2020 Porsche Cayenne E Hybrid
2018 X3 M40i
2017 Audi S6 (sold)
2015 BMW X5 xDrive35i (sold)
2015 BMW X3 xDrive28i (sold)
Appreciate 1
X5 45e666.50

      10-30-2020, 09:33 PM   #57
jc.bmw
Private
10
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 45e
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

iTrader: (0)

Basically I wanted a setting that optimizes for ride quality and torque. I don’t care much for fuel economy in this context.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2020, 11:45 PM   #58
TXSchnee
Lieutenant
297
Rep
489
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc.bmw View Post
Basically I wanted a setting that optimizes for ride quality and torque. I don't care much for fuel economy in this context.
That would still be hybrid. Instant electric torque and fill in with ICE when you need more power.
__________________
2020 Porsche Cayenne E Hybrid
2018 X3 M40i
2017 Audi S6 (sold)
2015 BMW X5 xDrive35i (sold)
2015 BMW X3 xDrive28i (sold)
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2020, 01:17 AM   #59
X5 45e
Lieutenant Colonel
667
Rep
1,741
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 45e
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW X5 45e  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc.bmw View Post
Bad language aside, 800lbs extra is a bit of a concern, particularly in the depleted battery scenario. Basically in any trip longer than 30 miles the 45e is a heavier vehicle with a less powerful engine.

After many test drives, I opted for the 45e. The drive experience is great with the electric engine's torque and quiet ride in the city. I'm getting a better ride for 80% of my driving experience. I can happily live with more weight and less HP for the other 20%, specially given that the torque from the ICE is the same as in the 40i.

A feature I wish the 45e had is "Use ICE-only above X mph" and I'd choose 50mph for ICE to kick in and disable the electric motor. I want to preserve the battery for when I get on to local roads.

That battery management option doesn't work seamlessly for this, as I don't want to have to activate it manually and I don't want ICE to actively charge the battery.
All PHEV run better, and are more economical if you drive in hybrid setting instead of pure electric. If you have a city center that requires electric only, that is when you shift to electric. If you want as much all electric driving as possible, you have to go full BEV. If you drive the most efficient way (hybrid setting) then you shouldn't run out of charge on normal trips and the weight penalty of the batteries is negligible.
I don't know if this available in the the US but in Europe the 45e switches to all electric automatically in major city centers with the edrive zones app and geofencing.

If the trip is planned in Idrive battery level is controlled and if necessary charged to be able to drive all electric.

Because of the large electric range and the length of my daily commute my default is electric individual and I stay in EI most of the time. I only switch to adaptive mode for longer trips.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2020, 10:53 AM   #60
TXSchnee
Lieutenant
297
Rep
489
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Blank

I don't believe any major city here has an electric only mandate. So I doubt BMW put resources into the edrive zones app or geofencing in the US. Battery management is still active if you have your destination entered in iDrive though. I am driving my E Hybrid in hybrid mode about 95 % of the time, Sport maybe 2% and Electric 3%, still averaging 41% of my current total miles as all electric. I don't think I will go back to an ICE only vehicle, there have been no downsides to the PHEV (I have a level 2 charger installed at my house and charge nightly).
__________________
2020 Porsche Cayenne E Hybrid
2018 X3 M40i
2017 Audi S6 (sold)
2015 BMW X5 xDrive35i (sold)
2015 BMW X3 xDrive28i (sold)
Appreciate 1
X5 45e666.50

      10-31-2020, 02:15 PM   #61
X5 45e
Lieutenant Colonel
667
Rep
1,741
Posts

Drives: BMW X5 45e
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW X5 45e  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
I don't believe any major city here has an electric only mandate. So I doubt BMW put resources into the edrive zones app or geofencing in the US. Battery management is still active if you have your destination entered in iDrive though. I am driving my E Hybrid in hybrid mode about 95 % of the time, Sport maybe 2% and Electric 3%, still averaging 41% of my current total miles as all electric. I don't think I will go back to an ICE only vehicle, there have been no downsides to the PHEV (I have a level 2 charger installed at my house and charge nightly).
It is not a mandate by the city (yet). It just a functionality introduced by BMW on PHEV.

Although my choice for the 45e was tax based I must admit I like the electric drive combined with ICE too like you mentioned.
Appreciate 1
TXSchnee297.00

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:23 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST