[reli]

Originally Posted by GS2019

Totally agree and have no doubt that Tesla has taken over the car market. Look at their stock price in a short time. Most people nowadays want a Tesla (although many who wants it can't afford one). Amazing vision and strategy on their part as even BMW, MB, Lexus and other major automakers could never figure anything innovate as Tesla did.

You really pay for the technology.
I really wish the quality was better, you don't see BMW or MB drivers when they go to pick up the car have a massive check list https://github.com/polymorphic/tesla-model-y-checklist

As a current Model Y owner who picked up the car when they transitioned to the vision only and removed the radar it was very limited but improved overtime with over the air updates you can't beat constant updates OTA. At the end of the day the Model Y is getting traded in the quality really shows after 7k miles that luxury feeling is not there for the MY and poor material quality. As for the Model X talk about a out of reach price for most consumers.

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by reli

I guss I'm one of the odd ones I am trading in my Model Y for the 45e this Friday.... Its a love hate relaitonship with the Model Y. At the end of the day the ride and suspesnion is terriable feels like I'm in my STi again not sutiable for a family car. Quailty and that luxry feel is not there. I sold my x3 m40i much regret but baby number two in the house the X5 45e was the way to go. Tesla tech is top noch and so is the super charging and auto pilot if you have the latest FSD with a 100 score it is ahead for sure but man you really pay for the "software" the hardware is terriable basically

Wow, we're in a similar boat. I have a Model Y, have a 45e M Sport on order, will sell the MY when it gets here. Interesting—I thought I'd never buy an ICE car again, but here I am.

[jad03060]

Tesla is a s/w tech company...they have a long ways to go to catch up to companies that have been making integrated chassis products. If you like their implementation, and go at them with an open mind, and where they are good, it's not a bad vehicle. Their build quality, fit and finish, and materials choices along with ergonomics isn't up to snuff at their price point, but that doesn't seem to matter for many people that seem to overlook them, at least for awhile. If you go watch some of Munro's Tesla MY teardown videos, you'll see that Tesla IS improving, but still has a ways to go.

[GS2019]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Wow, we're in a similar boat. I have a Model Y, have a 45e M Sport on order, will sell the MY when it gets here. Interesting—I thought I'd never buy an ICE car again, but here I am.

synchronicityii Why did you decide to sell your MY? Since you already have Level 2 charger, can you simply use the 45e charger or do you need to buy some additional adapters?

[reli]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Wow, we're in a similar boat. I have a Model Y, have a 45e M Sport on order, will sell the MY when it gets here. Interesting—I thought I'd never buy an ICE car again, but here I am.

Hey i'm not the only one! I pick up mine Friday so excited.
Its a love hate relationship with the model Y !!

[Wait What?]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

Wow, we're in a similar boat. I have a Model Y, have a 45e M Sport on order, will sell the MY when it gets here. Interesting—I thought I'd never buy an ICE car again, but here I am.

Even though I have never driven or been in a MY, I think you're going to love your 45e: IMO it is such a wonderfully conceived and flexible car, which is going to give you a silent, comfortable and emission-free ride for all your local trips as well as the peace of mind, sportiness and pure enjoyment of an ICE (supplemented by the motor for extra torque) for longer trips. All this in an appealing exterior and a luxurious and comfortable interior.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jad03060

Tesla is a s/w tech company...they have a long ways to go to catch up to companies that have been making integrated chassis products.

The problem with this story is, it's 3 years old ...
We've all been conditioned to think change in the auto industry takes 5-10 years, but Tesla is pushing industry change in 5-10 months

No legacy auto company that's seen Tesla's Berlin plant isn't shitting their pants. It's why Herbert Diess called Elon into a 200 manager panic meeting and said VW has to completely rebuild their Wolfburg plant:

We need a new mindset at Volkswagen AG to take on the new competition! After three days with 200 top managers from around the world I am confident: We have everything we need to tackle the challenges. Right strategy, right competencies, right management team. We can do it – but we have to deliver now.

Was great to meet the colleagues in person & to discuss how we transform the Group as fast as possible. One big topic: Our headquarter Wolfsburg, our biggest and most traditional site. With Trinity we will revolutionize it to compete with Tesla in Grünheide where they will build cars with an impressive speed and productivity. Ralf Brandstätter has already many ideas how to build a new factory within the old one.

Tesla's engineering has always been #1, but their manufacturing hasn't been ... Now not only is their manufacturing prowess matching their engineering, it's staged to be world-class & Diess knows it because he's seen it.

The thing is, Tesla's manufacturing is improving EXPONENTIALLY AND Tesla is building two new plants! That means:

(1.) Tesla is an engineering company & auto designs improve *monthly*
(2.) Tesla is a learning company: they capture & catalog improvements *monthly*
(3.) Tesla's manufacturing is fearless & w/o bureaucracy: assembly line process is updated *monthly*
(4.) Tesla is building new plants WITH NEW MACHINES capable of automating every Tesla lesson to-date into single processes
(5.) Tesla's Berlin production metrics are off-the-charts

The reason VW is shitting their pants is because, when your competitor can build a vehicle engineered 10x better, 3x faster, with the same quality as you, unless you adapt to match you're fucked.

Tesla's Berlin production start will go down in history as an industry turning point and many legacies will fail within 3-5 years because of it.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The thing is, Tesla's manufacturing is improving EXPONENTIALLY AND Tesla is building two new plants! That means:...

It doesn't really matter if their car manufacturing philosophy remains at "Build Fast, Fix Later".

Yes, they would improve, but all emphasis is on building faster and more efficiently.

And I think you are giving Tesla more credit than they deserve. They may excel in certain aspect, but some others like headlight tech (lack of anti-dazzle high beam) is like 15 years behind BMW. Lack of HUD, 360 degree surround view, cross traffic alerts, blind spot indicators, basic features like setting way-points in their navigation system etc are inexcusable. And the deletion of radar before their vision system is anywhere near capable of FSD is premature. And calling their cruise control as "Autopilot" is probably one of the most irresponsible act - and it probably contributed to many deaths and injuries.

Tesla may win in raw acceleration and range, but their engineers cannot match BMW's in the area of suspension and refinement.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

'

Tesla may win in raw acceleration and range, but their engineers cannot match BMW's in terms of suspension and refinement.

BMW's suspension tuning has trailed competitors for 5 years now and they've been lapped by Porsche, not to mention giving up DCTs to go backwards to torque converters.

That said, BMW is niche luxury product, not a volume seller - I'm not sure Tesla's volume sellers, the Model 3/Y, are exactly targeting the same customer segment as BMW's ... and on the luxury side, i.e, Model S/X where BMW is putting out the i4 & iX, again, I don't think it's the same customer and there's also plenty of room there.

All of that said, BEVs are about the car AND the chargers, not just the car ... and assuming Tesla licenses its chargers to BMW, then Tesla will simply earn an annuity for every BMW sold.

Net-Net
There plenty of room in the luxury BEV space for lots of product, but Tesla is positioned to profit from all of it.

[jad03060]

The way I look at Tesla is that their vehicles are the ultimate example of a beta, with a newer attempt coming out regularly. If you enjoy that, fine by me...

I agree on calling autopilot wrong...it's killed both some drivers and innocent bystanders...I wouldn't want to be that beta tester!

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

That said, BMW is niche luxury product, not a volume seller - I'm not sure Tesla's volume sellers, the Model 3/Y, are exactly targeting the same customer segment as BMW's ... and on the luxury side, i.e, Model S/X where BMW is putting out the i4 & iX, again, I don't think it's the same customer and there's also plenty of room there.

BMW literally is locked in an annual death match with its peers to be the sales volume leader every year. I would classify Porsche as the niche manuf that doesn't chase volume and their sales numbers illustrate that fact

Moreover, one of the top traded in vehicles of Model 3 owners was a BMW 3 series. Heck...you can pretty much draw a straight line in the nomenclature of Model 3 to see what Tesla was targeting as its customer (same can possibly be said for Model S and MB's S-Class)...yes different style and size of car but still i think you can make some connections here.

And yes...i know Elon's master plan was to have his car lineup spell out S-3-X-Y where as the E was already trademarked by another so he had to settled on 1990's pager digit messages instead

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by goobies818

Moreover, one of the top traded in vehicles of Model 3 owners was a BMW 3 series. Heck...you can pretty much draw a straight line in the nomenclature of Model 3 to see what Tesla was targeting as its customer (same can possibly be said for Model S and MB's S-Class)...yes different style and size of car but still i think you can make some connections here.

Good points, though I would still argue for future sales BMW should be targeting its own customer segment who'd be looking to BMW for at least their primary vehicle with a Tesla as secondary.

If this ISN'T true, then

(a.) BMW is fucked, and
(b.) Tesla, at least with the model 3, isn't targeting their volume customer yet ... and they should be.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

BMW's suspension tuning has trailed competitors for 5 years now and they've been lapped by Porsche, not to mention giving up DCTs to go backwards to torque converters.

That said, BMW is niche luxury product, not a volume seller - I'm not sure Tesla's volume sellers, the Model 3/Y, are exactly targeting the same customer segment as BMW's ... and on the luxury side, i.e, Model S/X where BMW is putting out the i4 & iX, again, I don't think it's the same customer and there's also plenty of room there.

All of that said, BEVs are about the car AND the chargers, not just the car ... and assuming Tesla licenses its chargers to BMW, then Tesla will simply earn an annuity for every BMW sold.

Net-Net
There plenty of room in the luxury BEV space for lots of product, but Tesla is positioned to profit from all of it.

One of the analysts said something to that effect, that Tesla's stock price reflected the value of their supercharger network that can be licensed to other brands and cars. So Tesla wins just by EVs taking off in general. I bet they do a deal with VW at some point...

Tesla for instance built their own audio system by hiring engineers from B&O, they are likely doing that in other areas like Chassis design. Look as how far Genesis has come so quickly with talent they got from BMW etc.

The industry is at an inflection point. BMW, apart from some polarizing design, IMHO is putting out some well engineered stuff. JMHO.

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by GS2019

synchronicityii Why did you decide to sell your MY? Since you already have Level 2 charger, can you simply use the 45e charger or do you need to buy some additional adapters?

After buying the MY, I decided to move states and am building a house. Four months of being in an apartment with no charging solution, and with the nearest Supercharger 17 miles away, has convinced me I don't want to do this for another year. With the 45e, I can run on gas now, then charge it up every night in the new house and do most of my local driving on battery power.

[jad03060]

Until there are fast chargers on every corner as it seems there are gas stations, to drive a BEV requires changing your thought process and losing some flexibility.

FWIW, though, you could have charged your Tesla at your new house. If you didn't drive huge distances, it would be recharged overnight or sooner, just like the X5 45e is. The X5 is more flexible in how you may want to use it. Until that isn't a choice any more, I'll probably stay with a PHEV.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

After buying the MY, I decided to move states and am building a house. Four months of being in an apartment with no charging solution, and with the nearest Supercharger 17 miles away, has convinced me I don't want to do this for another year. With the 45e, I can run on gas now, then charge it up every night in the new house and do most of my local driving on battery power.

I agree. For most people PHEV is the way to go for a family car/SUV until charging is easy and common. We will likely have an EV going forward as 1 of our cars since we have good enough infrastructure around us for easy 200 mile trips in any direction. One reason why there are so many EVs around where I live.

[jad03060]

The I95 corridor isn't bad, but the problems exist with any EV when you go off the beaten path. There, you can probably find a gas station, but may not find a CCS or even EVSE spot, and may be stuck sitting overnight at your hotel using your own, if you can find a place to plug it in. This situation will change, and using an EV will become easier...some places, it's not a big deal, but they tend to be in the minority.

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by FCX5

I agree. For most people PHEV is the way to go for a family car/SUV until charging is easy and common. We will likely have an EV going forward as 1 of our cars since we have good enough infrastructure around us for easy 200 mile trips in any direction. One reason why there are so many EVs around where I live.

That’s exactly the route my wife and I are planning.

We have my X5 as the ICE car and eventually we’ll swap out her 3-series for BEV

Ideally….her desired vehicle if it came as a BEV would be a CX-5…that would be a sweet spot BEV compact crossover (not gonna lie…I really dig what Mazda has in their offerings)

[tartraspberry]

Originally Posted by reli

I guss I'm one of the odd ones I am trading in my Model Y for the 45e this Friday.... Its a love hate relaitonship with the Model Y. At the end of the day the ride and suspesnion is terriable feels like I'm in my STi again not sutiable for a family car. Quailty and that luxry feel is not there. I sold my x3 m40i much regret but baby number two in the house the X5 45e was the way to go. Tesla tech is top noch and so is the super charging and auto pilot if you have the latest FSD with a 100 score it is ahead for sure but man you really pay for the "software" the hardware is terriable basically

Interesting! I’ve been debated Y and X5 and the suspension is a big deal for me.. I get car sick if I’m not driving..how is the cabin noise between the two in your opinion?

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by tartraspberry

Interesting! I’ve been debated Y and X5 and the suspension is a big deal for me.. I get car sick if I’m not driving..how is the cabin noise between the two in your opinion?

The Model Y is very quiet. The windows are all acoustic. The suspension is harder on the MY and more sporty. The MY has more legroom, but the X5 is much more comfortable overall.

[tartraspberry]

Originally Posted by FCX5

The Model Y is very quiet. The windows are all acoustic. The suspension is harder on the MY and more sporty. The MY has more legroom, but the X5 is much more comfortable overall.

Thanks!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by tartraspberry

Thanks!

We have a pre order for the iX. To get the best of X5 and MY. Looking forward to the cutting edge B&W audio system in the iX. The audio system on the MY is really good, so the iX having a great one was important. LOL.

It will have the diamond dome tweeters that the X5/X7 B&W systems have (similar to the $35K Diamond 800 series) but also Nautilus swirls (similar to their $65K Nautilus speakers). Clearly there is marketing hype here, but no doubt it will be amazing. 😊

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/09/07/b...ound-in-a-car/

Ok.. the front is polarizing, but to me, it looks better than X or Y! Can't wait for June 🤞