[allinon72]

In my mind, if you're in the market for an EV, Tesla is the only choice given their charging network. Even then, while expansive, you still have to think about and plan when you're going to charge. This is a hard sell for people who are used to simply pulling into the gas station.

Until an alternative charging network is introduced, we're quite a ways away from EVs going mainstream. Take the new electric F150 - very popular truck with a lot of enthusiasm, but where will these hundreds of thousands of electric trucks (based on preorders) charge other than at home? The 2 charging stations at a 1000 space parking lot in the industrial park?

[BMWFLYNN]

Originally Posted by taek

Do people actually cross shop the two?
A Model X with 5 seats is $113k, no federal rebate.

A 45e loaded out is around $75k, $67k with fed tax credit, $64k with the PenFed incentive. And you can always knock out the msport, merino leather, and other packages since a Tesla is pretty bare bones.

This is a pretty big gap, normally cars $50k apart aren't compared.

Originally Posted by taek

Do people actually cross shop the two?
A Model X with 5 seats is $113k, no federal rebate.

A 45e loaded out is around $75k, $67k with fed tax credit, $64k with the PenFed incentive. And you can always knock out the msport, merino leather, and other packages since a Tesla is pretty bare bones.

This is a pretty big gap, normally cars $50k apart aren't compared.

Maybe not in the US, fully loaded X5 45e in Ireland is €107k, long range Tesla Model X is €111k, so I definitely cross shopped between these and the Volvo XC90.

[BAO_72]

Same here in Norway. Loaded X plaid same as loaded 45e. 40i is abt. 200K so definitely cross shopped. Model Y is less than 2/3 of the price, same as a Toyota RAV 4 hybrid, (60K) so completely different situation over here

[BAO_72]

Sorry not that bad.... 40i is about 140K Euro

[goobies818]

Originally Posted by BMWFLYNN

Maybe not in the US, fully loaded X5 45e in Ireland is €107k, long range Tesla Model X is €111k, so I definitely cross shopped between these and the Volvo XC90.

Is that Including VAT?

I think many Americans when they discuss price of a car talk in terms of pre-tax price as our sales tax system can differ dramatically from state to state…some can be tax free while others can be an arm and a leg

[BMWFLYNN]

Originally Posted by goobies818

Is that Including VAT?

I think many Americans when they discuss price of a car talk in terms of pre-tax price as our sales tax system can differ dramatically from state to state…some can be tax free while others can be an arm and a leg

Yes all taxes and rebates included in those prices

[jad03060]

State and local vehicle taxes in the US rarely get over about 10%, and many are less than that, if they exist. NH doesn't have a general state sales tax, but they treat vehicles like property, and you pay a depreciating scale tax on it based on the retail cost (the first year where I live is about 1.5%), but that is often on just the base price of the vehicle, not the as-sold cost.

IMHO, you have to look at the as first registered cost if you want to be fair, as you can't own and drive the thing until you've paid all of the costs/fees. Insurance is a different portion, as those costs can vary considerably, too.

VAT tends to run about 20%, and then you have import taxes that can be as much as 100%! Import taxes on vehicles (not pickups) in the USA is 3%. Many pickups sold in the USA are now made here to offset the 25% import tax that was applied years ago to protect the local truck industry, as trucks were the largest single category of sales.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by reli

You really pay for the technology.
I really wish the quality was better, you don't see BMW or MB drivers when they go to pick up the car have a massive check list https://github.com/polymorphic/tesla-model-y-checklist

As a current Model Y owner who picked up the car when they transitioned to the vision only and removed the radar it was very limited but improved overtime with over the air updates you can't beat constant updates OTA. At the end of the day the Model Y is getting traded in the quality really shows after 7k miles that luxury feeling is not there for the MY and poor material quality. As for the Model X talk about a out of reach price for most consumers.

I concur based on our MY Performance ownership as well. I think the new BMW XM will be another competitor in that it is supped to have insane performance and a PHEV engine. The interior should be amazing as well.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Until an alternative charging network is introduced, we're quite a ways away from EVs going mainstream.

Maybe, but I don't think so because we've seen this movie too many times before and it's never happened that way ...

For one, that's not how ICE worked in the first place when it displaced EVs!! (Ford's wife had a Detroit Electric!). It's not like there were gas stations or freeways all across the US; in fact many rural rich people in the 20s/30s would keep their own fuel supplies for guests because otherwise people driving out from the cities had no way to fill up to return.

My 2 cents is, the supply chains will all start converting to EVs (see recent chip & gas shortages) which will then tip the inconvenience scales enough that 10,000 investors will pile in to win infrastructure.

We're watching a TV show from 2011 (on Netflix which used to not exist because no high speed internet infrastructure which blockbuster said would take decades) & everyone had blackberrys on 3g and no Amazon Prime free home delivery.

Infrastructure has a way catching up fast once consistent demand becomes obvious, it just hasn't been obvious yet ...

But I think Tesla's Q4 results will be that harbinger ... assuming regulatory risk doesn't kill them.

[jad03060]

CCS charging is only a need when you're traveling longer distances, or if you do not have the opportunity to recharge overnight at home. The average commuter can usually fully recharge at home overnight. For those that cannot get access to charging at home, say those living in an apartment or other place that does not have a place to install an EVSE, then a CCS unit, hopefully, near their home can recharge things during a stop on the way home, or during an errand along the way there, or maybe while at work.

Eventually, we'll have CCS chargers in more places. Battery tech will allow even more rapid recharging, so a few minutes may top off.

We'll get there. I still thing the 45e is a good interim choice, and if some of the green energy solutions come on line fast enough, FCEV may also act as a bridge.

Tesla will get better, but others have a much deeper depth of engineering and manufacturing expertise. Lucid's vehicle, while pricey, along with MB's and BMW's will pull some sales from Tesla.

The whole vehicle sales/service philosophy is evolving. EVs don't generally require anywhere near as much maintenance, so while today, that service department is a major source of income for dealerships, how to best handle that, and still stay in business will become a learning experience, and not everyone will adapt. EVs lend themselves to customization, similar to how the coachbuilders did things about 100-years ago...a chassis that got customized. Decide you don't like the look, modular bits may allow quick changes, and trade in your old parts.

I had a GE box fan I bought in the 1960's that died after almost 60-years! It got used regularly. The circulating fan on my air handler has been running nearly constantly (multi-speed, run on low unless it needs to run faster) since about 1987. I bought a replacement, but so far, have not needed to use it. Electric motors can last a very long time...

It's going to be interesting...and, traumatic for some.

[jps3b]

I say yes. I have a good friend who bought a Tesla X. The range quoted is 320. He said he doesn't even get half of that. Of course if you drive the speed limit everywhere and don't use the air conditioner, don't drive any hills you may get close to 320. But in the real world in SoCal where you drive thru the Sepulveda pass and have to use the air conditioner in 90+ degree weather you aren't getting half of that. I was hellbent on getting a Tesla. But after talking with him, I bought an X5 M50i instead. I don't think we are there yet when it comes to electric cars. 30-40 minutes refuel as opposed to 5 minutes at a gas station.

[45e21]

Originally Posted by jps3b

I don't think we are there yet when it comes to electric cars. 30-40 minutes refuel as opposed to 5 minutes at a gas station.

On 45e, all my “refueling” (charging) happens while I am sleeping

[jad03060]

My gas tank has been full since about mid-August, but I leave each time with both a full battery and fuel tank most of the time, but can drive, pretty much non-stop except for a piss stop and to put fuel in the thing, if I need to.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by jps3b

I don't think we are there yet when it comes to electric cars. 30-40 minutes refuel as opposed to 5 minutes at a gas station.

If your X50i auto-refueled in your garage every night how often would you go to a gas station?

Unless your daily commute is > 150 miles / day why would you give a shit?

[yanger24]

30-40 min? Lol. I love my 45e and love my Tesla. This has not Been my experience.

[Eternalthinker]

My experience with Tesla (after owning 6 and still have the MS, MX, and Model 3) is not glowing like many cultish fanboys. My 1st MS was a 2013 and came with 245 miles on a 100% charge. In 4 yrs, that range dropped down to 190s. I overlooked the quality issues, but Tesla had to buy back my 2018 MX because of it being in the shop for over 3 months due to sensor issues and the falcon wings locking out (not closing or opening when hot - 90+ degree weather). Model 3's list is even longer, but I no longer cared.

Picked up a 2020 X7 and the quality is just there. Fine German build quality. On the software side and intuitiveness, it is behind Tesla. However quality really edges over the techie side of Tesla. My X5 45e is inbound and interesting thing about it is I will not have to worry about paint issues, panel gaps, misaligned parts, etc.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Eternalthinker

My experience with Tesla (after owning 6 and still have the MS, MX, and Model 3) is not glowing like many cultish fanboys. My 1st MS was a 2013 and came with 245 miles on a 100% charge. In 4 yrs, that range dropped down to 190s. I overlooked the quality issues, but Tesla had to buy back my 2018 MX because of it being in the shop for over 3 months due to sensor issues and the falcon wings locking out (not closing or opening when hot - 90+ degree weather). Model 3's list is even longer, but I no longer cared.

Picked up a 2020 X7 and the quality is just there. Fine German build quality. On the software side and intuitiveness, it is behind Tesla. However quality really edges over the techie side of Tesla. My X5 45e is inbound and interesting thing about it is I will not have to worry about paint issues, panel gaps, misaligned parts, etc.

Awesome garage. Hopefully you can add a Nivera and Chiron to that collection soon.

My experience with the MY is that the autopilot works very well. The interior is very simple, but the seats and audio are very good and performance for the price is excellent. It is also very quiet. Tesla's Supercharger station is another advantage and my wife is addicted to the idea of never needing to go to a gas station or oil change etc. But then my experience is much more mundane that yours.

I have also been on a couple of short trips on a new Model S Plaid and the interior is quite nice. The person who drives it as a DD now used to have a BMW 750i FWIW and was considering the Taycan. He likes the Plaid a lot. The yoke is not my thing, but I have no problems with the interior or drive train or handling.

[synchronicityii]

Originally Posted by FCX5

My experience with the MY is that the autopilot works very well. The interior is very simple, but the seats and audio are very good and performance for the price is excellent. It is also very quiet. Tesla's Supercharger station is another advantage and my wife is addicted to the idea of never needing to go to a gas station or oil change etc.

I'm with you on the performance. My Model Y Performance accelerates 0–60 in 3.5 seconds, which is just silly. I drove an X3M Competition over the weekend, and it was fast, but 0.2 seconds slower than the Tesla—and thanks to the EV drivetrain, the Tesla's acceleration is absolutely smooth, a quick but steady pull to 60 mph and beyond.

I appreciate the Supercharger network very much and don't understand why other manufacturers continue to leave such a critical aspect of their success to third-party firms. Tesla gets this, and so does Rivian, but the legacy ICE firms transitioning to EVs seem mostly content to simply refer their drivers to third-party networks. I don't get it.

Where I differ is on Autopilot. I loved it at first, but I've had too many phantom braking episodes to fully trust it anymore. When I drove cross-country, without a lot of traffic, in the middle of nowhere, it was great. In urban/suburban/exurban freeway driving, with traffic allowing little margin for error, I've mostly given up on it. Nothing like doing 75 down the interstate in moderate traffic when suddenly the MY says, "Oh no, the pavement changed color, must brake!"

[jps3b]

Originally Posted by Eternalthinker

My experience with Tesla (after owning 6 and still have the MS, MX, and Model 3) is not glowing like many cultish fanboys. My 1st MS was a 2013 and came with 245 miles on a 100% charge. In 4 yrs, that range dropped down to 190s. I overlooked the quality issues, but Tesla had to buy back my 2018 MX because of it being in the shop for over 3 months due to sensor issues and the falcon wings locking out (not closing or opening when hot - 90+ degree weather). Model 3's list is even longer, but I no longer cared.

Picked up a 2020 X7 and the quality is just there. Fine German build quality. On the software side and intuitiveness, it is behind Tesla. However quality really edges over the techie side of Tesla. My X5 45e is inbound and interesting thing about it is I will not have to worry about paint issues, panel gaps, misaligned parts, etc.

Very interesting insight from a subject matter expert. Or at least that's what I would call you after owning six of them. I was convinced that my next car would be a Model X but after sitting in one it just felt soul less. A very sterile interior with no wow factor. On the flip side, look at the inside of my X5 and it's a place I want to spend hours in…

[jps3b]

Originally Posted by synchronicityii

I'm with you on the performance. My Model Y Performance accelerates 0–60 in 3.5 seconds, which is just silly. I drove an X3M Competition over the weekend, and it was fast, but 0.2 seconds slower than the Tesla—and thanks to the EV drivetrain, the Tesla's acceleration is absolutely smooth, a quick but steady pull to 60 mph and beyond.

I appreciate the Supercharger network very much and don't understand why other manufacturers continue to leave such a critical aspect of their success to third-party firms. Tesla gets this, and so does Rivian, but the legacy ICE firms transitioning to EVs seem mostly content to simply refer their drivers to third-party networks. I don't get it.

Where I differ is on Autopilot. I loved it at first, but I've had too many phantom braking episodes to fully trust it anymore. When I drove cross-country, without a lot of traffic, in the middle of nowhere, it was great. In urban/suburban/exurban freeway driving, with traffic allowing little margin for error, I've mostly given up on it. Nothing like doing 75 down the interstate in moderate traffic when suddenly the MY says, "Oh no, the pavement changed color, must brake!"

I think that autonomous driving will forever be riddled with problems so long as they use the asphalt for guidance. Those little lines are just to inconsistent when it comes to the cameras or sensors for it to work right. I have the driver assist package on my X5 and it works well enough, but there is no way I'm ever gonna stop paying attention to the road because as soon as those little lines disappear for a second, the car doesn't know what to do

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by jps3b

Very interesting insight from a subject matter expert. Or at least that's what I would call you after owning six of them. I was convinced that my next car would be a Model X but after sitting in one it just felt soul less. A very sterile interior with no wow factor. On the flip side, look at the inside of my X5 and it's a place I want to spend hours in…

You nailed it with your X5! I love it. The BMW interior is one reason we pre-ordered the iX and hoping to get it by June next year.

The comment that caught my attention from the previous poster with the dream garage and 6 Teslas is where he mentions the Tesla cult. I know of a lot of people who love their Teslas (including the President of my company) who are anything but cultish...but it is what it is. The luxury in a BMW can't be matched by a Tesla for connoisseurs of fine leather and interior appointments. I also love the X5/X7 interiors A LOT. But I would never buy them with the base HiFi. LOL.

[jps3b]

Originally Posted by FCX5

You nailed it with your X5! I love it. The BMW interior is one reason we pre-ordered the iX and hoping to get it by June next year.

The comment that caught my attention from the previous poster with the dream garage and 6 Teslas is where he mentions the Tesla cult. I know of a lot of people who love their Teslas (including the President of my company) who are anything but cultish...but it is what it is. The luxury in a BMW can't be matched by a Tesla for connoisseurs of fine leather and interior appointments. I also love the X5/X7 interiors A LOT. But I would never buy them with the base HiFi. LOL.

You can't blame people who become infatuated with any given product. I know guys who have a cult following of cars, watches, places to live. It's okay. That's what we work so hard for. I love BMW's because they have been good to me and my family. My 2022 X5 is my third one. I had a 2009 X6 before that and a 2000 M Roadster before that. Both my previous Bimmers had minimal problems and I kept my X6 for almost 13 years. If guys want to be fan boys of Tesla or any other car for that matter, it's okay. I understand the draw. It's just not for me. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I have a good friend with a Model X. He said he doesn't get half the mileage they claim because he drives real world miles. I'm sure there will be a time where technology will make batteries that can out last fossil fuels. But until then, I'm going to stick with the car maker who has shown itself to be reliable.