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      10-13-2020, 11:39 AM   #1
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2021 Cloud Navigation cost?

My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
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      10-13-2020, 12:01 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
It is not really cloud navigation. The map is on the cars hard disk. The latest map you downloaded will stil be on your hard disk so I think you will be able to use that anyway "off line" but you won't be able to search online, traffic and parking info, connected drive app, ...

In Europe Connected packages are from 70 - 250 euro a year depending on the chosen services.

I think they are included for 3 years.
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      10-13-2020, 07:46 PM   #3
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As X5 45e noted you'll always have navigation from the system on the HDD.

The "cloud" features are stuff like being able to suggest a route to you that takes into account traffic conditions, parking availability, etc.

You get the "cloud" stuff free for 4 years and if you see it as worthy you can subscribe for $200/year afterwards.

The more interesting one that may go away in 4 years without a subscription is the Voice Controls. The Intelligent Personal Assistant is only included for 4 years, but they don't do a good job of showing you what voice support would exist without that sub in place...
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      10-13-2020, 08:19 PM   #4
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To further complicate this question, as of 2021 MY there is no longer hard drive in the car. At least in the USA and in the X5 45e
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      10-13-2020, 09:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Frankj9000 View Post
To further complicate this question, as of 2021 MY there is no longer hard drive in the car. At least in the USA and in the X5 45e
Interesting. Do elaborate much further on this, please, perhaps in its own thread. For example, no HDD or no system storage at all? Seems unlikely ...
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      10-13-2020, 09:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
It is not really cloud navigation. The map is on the cars hard disk. The latest map you downloaded will stil be on your hard disk so I think you will be able to use that anyway "off line" but you won't be able to search online, traffic and parking info, connected drive app, ...

In Europe Connected packages are from 70 - 250 euro a year depending on the chosen services.

I think they are included for 3 years.
This seems partially correct, but in USA at least (and I suppose other "large geographies"), the entire country detailed map is not stored in the car and gets downloaded dynamically as you travel. So if no connectivity, one might not be able to navigate outside your local dome.
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      10-13-2020, 09:52 PM   #7
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My spidy sense tells me ... no HHD in the MY2021 X5 and now navigation is cloud based and BMW is introducing "subscription" products ... that some how my brand new 2021 BMW X5 will not have a navigation system in a few years without me paying BMW.
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      10-14-2020, 12:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My spidy sense tells me ... no HHD in the MY2021 X5 and now navigation is cloud based and BMW is introducing "subscription" products ... that some how my brand new 2021 BMW X5 will not have a navigation system in a few years without me paying BMW.
Do you have any additional info your spidy sense? Maybe they are introducing an SSD?

Taking away the HHD would change how of Idrive 7 navigation works.

Or is it just the possibility to store music that is deleted? I don't think lots of owners use that anymore and will navigation still have a smaller HHD for the maps.

Interesting to know what will be happening.

You can be sure that every company will try to make money out of subscriptions. If they find a way to get you dependent on a certain service you will stay within a brand in the future.
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      10-14-2020, 02:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
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      10-14-2020, 06:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portocale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
Thanks for posting.

It is not completely clear to me if it is the destination search / point of interest / favorite destinations that are cloud based and the maps are still on the HDD.

If this service expires you will be left with a static system just being able to navigate to an adress in the stored maps. Or if indeed everything is in the cloud including the maps there won't be anything at all.

The cloud based navigation Sounds like a good upgrade for destination search and navigating.

I have read some others articles and with idrive cloud based navigation, navigating should be more like using google maps and Waze. The difference was the traffic info etc was not update a frequently so GM and Waze worked better. So no routes should be optimized more frequently.
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      10-14-2020, 08:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Thanks for posting.

It is not completely clear to me if it is the destination search / point of interest / favorite destinations that are cloud based and the maps are still on the HDD.

If this service expires you will be left with a static system just being able to navigate to an adress in the stored maps. Or if indeed everything is in the cloud including the maps there won't be anything at all.

The cloud based navigation Sounds like a good upgrade for destination search and navigating.

I have read some others articles and with idrive cloud based navigation, navigating should be more like using google maps and Waze. The difference was the traffic info etc was not update a frequently so GM and Waze worked better. So no routes should be optimized more frequently.
If the "new" cloud based navigation system works like Goggle Maps and Waze then I would expect it to stop working all together once the free time period expires. Try and use GM and Waze while your LTE is turned off...
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      10-14-2020, 08:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portocale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
Ok, cool, according to that "genius" there is no "HDD" in MY2021 onwards and the navigation is "cloud-based" in 07/2020.xx. Now I wouldn't put it past BMW to have screwed it up, but "cloud-based" doesn't mean lack of local storage. All connected navigation systems at least cache detailed map data for when there is poor or no connectivity, which happens on the road much more often than sitting at home. And most systems allow direct or indirect ways of storing maps for complete offline usage. For example, Google Maps allows you to explicitly store maps locally for offline usage. Even Waze, the most connected navigation app there is, has an unofficial way to store offline maps (https://mygpstools.com/waze-gps-navi...e-offline-maps).

Hopefully BMW didn't screw that up as a car environment is much harsher and more limited communication environment than a smartphone environment (example: smartphones can all connect to local wifi to grab maps and updates, iDrive 7 cannot). But as has been demonstrated with other features, BMW UX design often misses completely obvious design issues, so who knows right now.

To the OPs topic: I now agree with the assertion: connected systems including navigation should now be considered a brick if you stop paying BMW or BMW decides to stop offering a compatible service in the future. And of course BMW WILL "do that to you" — wanna try unlocking you car on 07/2020.xx with Android Digital Key that you could do beforehand? Access Office 365 in UK? ParkNow in US? Good luck.

Just another reason to never own a modern BMW out of warranty.
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      10-14-2020, 10:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portocale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
Ok, cool, according to that "genius" there is no "HDD" in MY2021 onwards and the navigation is "cloud-based" in 07/2020.xx. Now I wouldn't put it past BMW to have screwed it up, but "cloud-based" doesn't mean lack of local storage. All connected navigation systems at least cache detailed map data for when there is poor or no connectivity, which happens on the road much more often than sitting at home. And most systems allow direct or indirect ways of storing maps for complete offline usage. For example, Google Maps allows you to explicitly store maps locally for offline usage. Even Waze, the most connected navigation app there is, has an unofficial way to store offline maps (https://mygpstools.com/waze-gps-navi...e-offline-maps).

Hopefully BMW didn't screw that up as a car environment is much harsher and more limited communication environment than a smartphone environment (example: smartphones can all connect to local wifi to grab maps and updates, iDrive 7 cannot). But as has been demonstrated with other features, BMW UX design often misses completely obvious design issues, so who knows right now.

To the OPs topic: I now agree with the assertion: connected systems including navigation should now be considered a brick if you stop paying BMW or BMW decides to stop offering a compatible service in the future. And of course BMW WILL "do that to you" — wanna try unlocking you car on 07/2020.xx with Android Digital Key that you could do beforehand? Access Office 365 in UK? ParkNow in US? Good luck.

Just another reason to never own a modern BMW out of warranty.
Maybe I didn't listen well enough but he mentions that navigation preferences and POI etc are not stored on the hard disk. It didn't hear him say there is no hard disk. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

My favorite navigation app is Tom Tom. The maps are downloaded on my iPhone but navigation info, traffic info etc is online.
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      10-14-2020, 11:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Thanks for posting.

It is not completely clear to me if it is the destination search / point of interest / favorite destinations that are cloud based and the maps are still on the HDD.

If this service expires you will be left with a static system just being able to navigate to an adress in the stored maps. Or if indeed everything is in the cloud including the maps there won't be anything at all.

The cloud based navigation Sounds like a good upgrade for destination search and navigating.

I have read some others articles and with idrive cloud based navigation, navigating should be more like using google maps and Waze. The difference was the traffic info etc was not update a frequently so GM and Waze worked better. So no routes should be optimized more frequently.
If the "new" cloud based navigation system works like Goggle Maps and Waze then I would expect it to stop working all together once the free time period expires. Try and use GM and Waze while your LTE is turned off...
That sounds correct. If you don't pay you will have a rather useless non dynamic navigation

You can still use Waze or GM on CarPlay. If you payed for that service of course.
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      10-14-2020, 03:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portocale View Post
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
I think there is a lot being lost between the engineers and the Genius and then down to the forum here. Sort of like a game of telephone.

They removed the HDD from the MY2021 and later cars, but my understanding there is that the moved from a HDD to a SSD of some kind to increase performance and reliability. Removing the maps entirely wouldn't make a lot of sense in a car where data connectively may be spotty or non-existent. Surely, you'll be able to start navigation deep in a garage without any signal. I'd also expect that you wouldn't be waiting days for a "map download" if your system was reset (such as a total loss of power).

The connected portions are limited to POIs and route based navigation with additional data points. Prior to "BMW Cloud Maps" your on car navigation system would have to calculate the optimal route then overlay that with downloaded traffic data long the route and recalculate an optimal route with those adjusted parameters. BMW has moved that server side so you can get a really fast route back that accurately account for traffic, closures, etc. During your drive it will also recalculate server side and send updates if needed. Without a subscription this would go away. Meaning you'd be left with POIs in the base Map + Last OTA update and route calculations done on the system itself without traffic adjustments.

You won't end up without any maps period.

Maps are too important to modern cars to not have on-board at all times. Even when you have it turned off and you're using something else the car is using the maps for a variety of functions, including safety functions such as Speed Limits and other features.
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      10-14-2020, 05:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X5 45e View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexxM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portocale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonefive1 View Post
My question is... what will happen to my cloud navigation some time in the future when BMW no longer allows unpaid data to stream through the LTE network? I'm assuming they will offer me a "subscription" to keep using my navigation system. Every other car navigation system keeps working long after updates stop and most of the time it's still very useful. If I don't want to pay the "subscription" price, will I have a $70K car with no navigation?
More information here.

No HDD on 2021 models. Probably will go on subscription after 3 years, BUT with Android Auto you ca use a variety of applications for navigation. In the mean time, I presume that full capacity of the automated driving will be aloud ONLY with BMW based navi cloud, a great way to take money from clients.
Ok, cool, according to that "genius" there is no "HDD" in MY2021 onwards and the navigation is "cloud-based" in 07/2020.xx. Now I wouldn't put it past BMW to have screwed it up, but "cloud-based" doesn't mean lack of local storage. All connected navigation systems at least cache detailed map data for when there is poor or no connectivity, which happens on the road much more often than sitting at home. And most systems allow direct or indirect ways of storing maps for complete offline usage. For example, Google Maps allows you to explicitly store maps locally for offline usage. Even Waze, the most connected navigation app there is, has an unofficial way to store offline maps (https://mygpstools.com/waze-gps-navi...e-offline-maps).

Hopefully BMW didn't screw that up as a car environment is much harsher and more limited communication environment than a smartphone environment (example: smartphones can all connect to local wifi to grab maps and updates, iDrive 7 cannot). But as has been demonstrated with other features, BMW UX design often misses completely obvious design issues, so who knows right now.

To the OPs topic: I now agree with the assertion: connected systems including navigation should now be considered a brick if you stop paying BMW or BMW decides to stop offering a compatible service in the future. And of course BMW WILL "do that to you" — wanna try unlocking you car on 07/2020.xx with Android Digital Key that you could do beforehand? Access Office 365 in UK? ParkNow in US? Good luck.

Just another reason to never own a modern BMW out of warranty.
Maybe I didn't listen well enough but he mentions that navigation preferences and POI etc are not stored on the hard disk. It didn't hear him say there is no hard disk. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

My favorite navigation app is Tom Tom. The maps are downloaded on my iPhone but navigation info, traffic info etc is online.
The two statements of interest in the video are at 5:24 and 10:20. It is, of course, ambiguous and hence why I use "quotes" around "genius" and other assertions.

But when I've assumed an obviously "right way" and "no way would BMW screw that up" situations in the past, I've often been disappointed — my "obvious" and my "good design" often don't match BMW's when it comes to user systems (mechanics is a different story, BMW rocks there). The design assumption for this could easily have been "car is always connected", as wrong as that assumption would be in reality. So I wouldn't just assume they got the stored offline maps design right, it would need to be either explicitly and clearly documented or explicitly and clearly tested.
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