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      01-11-2020, 04:48 PM   #23
F32Fleet
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This always makes me think of the JD power aware commercials Chevy runs. Initially quality is such a worthless measurement IMO. Who cares if it's initially good if it turns to crap after 2-3 years or less.
My thought's exactly. Initial quality isn't "quality" at all, it's spray-painting a turd with pretty colors.


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the people who lease
The useless ones, got it. I mean, if you always lease you're either too rich to care or too stupid to know better, and neither is a good representation of the general public. Cars should be made to last at least 100K without significant issues.
Which is almost every new luxury vehicle owner.
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      01-11-2020, 06:38 PM   #24
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Which is almost every new luxury vehicle owner.
Which in no way represents the vast majority of buyers.
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      01-11-2020, 11:40 PM   #25
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I've own a 2013 Porsche Boxster, 3 BMWs including my current 440i, 3 Audis and too many Mercedes to count. None of them has ever left me stranded. All of them had several electronic glitches and sensor failure that were repaired under warranty.

To me, Mercedes feels the most robust followed by Audi, then Porsche and BMW.
If you want flawless electronic, try Japanese. They make the best electronic components.

But comparing the interior of a 20 year old Lexus to a 20 year old Mercedes, Audi, or BMW and you can see how much better the German car's interior withstood time. Every old Lexus interior I see looks worn down and beaten while the German just looks boring.

Step back 40 years to a Mercedes 450SL or SEL and their interior looks as modern as today. Many of them are still in excellent condition now.

The problem is that modern German cars are $40K car and $60K electronics and we know how much resale value are for electronics.

At this point, I don't think the Mercedes or Porsche electronics are any better than each other. They both share components made by Bosch so these 2 brands are not any better than the other.
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      01-12-2020, 12:05 AM   #26
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I’ve never owned a Mercedes but I’ve heard enough friends complain about theirs. One guy used to drive Cadillacs, decided to “step up” to Mercedes and after 2.5 years went back to a Cadillac. That’s just one data point of course.

We have a Macan and a 718 Boxster. I am not sure how many miles a typical Porsche owner drives but I’ve put 21,000 miles on the Macan in one year and 12,000 miles on the 718 in the same period of time. The 718 has had two minor recalls but no mechanical/electrical/electronic issues. I am not an SUV guy but really love the Macan. I looked at the Q5 which is its cousin, so maybe the quality identical.

Anyway, both my Porsche’s have so far been impeccable and has sort of turned me into a fanboy. I feel very fortunate to be able to afford them, but I think even if I could only afford older Porsche’s, I think I’d have no problem buying one.

Check this video out on how the Macan is built. It’s a nice blend of automation and hand building a vehicle plus a high level of quality control. The Macan has the lowest base price of any Porsche and you can see other Porsche’s built at the factory, so I’m certain the same rigor is applied across the board.

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      01-12-2020, 02:16 AM   #27
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This really shouldn't even be a question -- primarily because of scale.

M-B's lower-than-average long-term reliability averages should tell you all you need to know. They simply don't age well, and never have.
Thatís simply for false. They may have lower than average reliability now (though my family has had excellent experiences with them) but in the 80s and 90s they were built like tanks and had a reputation for rock solid reliability.
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      01-17-2020, 04:50 PM   #28
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Thatís simply for false. They may have lower than average reliability now (though my family has had excellent experiences with them) but in the 80s and 90s they were built like tanks and had a reputation for rock solid reliability.
Ummm ... no, they didn't. See Post #9 by yours truly. During that time I actually lived in Germany.

Mercedes, BMW, and Audi were all fighting uphill battles to make their vehicles more 'premium' because in the home country, all three were (and were considered) mid-grade 'commoner' vehicles with some high-line variants. Not only was the perception of each different than in the U.S., but the reality was different because that perception was largely based on actual, real history using a sample size that was far, far larger than the U.S. had at the time.

The U.S. almost always only had premium trims of the smaller models exported to it, and the high-line variants were, frankly, created to fulfill U.S. market demands more so than home-market demands. Example: The primary reason large German GT coupes came to be in the 1970s and 80s -- the BMW 6 series, the Mercedes W116 and W126 variants, and the Porsche 928 (Audi never really dabbled since it had its own set of issues that nearly killed it) was the U.S. market's appetite for them. (We all know how that turned out.)

The U.S. also never saw many Mercedes Turbodiesels. 'Nuff said. (I did, back then. They were horrific.)

I also saw -- regularly -- broken-down home-market M-Bs, BMWs, and Audis on roadsides, in driveways, and elsewhere. I made a mental note of them because of what my previous perception of those cars was. I also remember it vividly because of that.

Finally, I lived in a small German town. My neighbor's son was a gearhead who souped up Honda CB street bikes and had all manner of pals come by with serious two-wheel and four-wheel hardware. I asked him, one day, about how BMW and Mercedes are perceived vs. the U.S. I remember him laughing and basically saying 'To Germans, Mercedes are your Chryslers. BMWs are your Pontiacs. I don't like either because they break and are too hard to fix.'

That's one man's opinion ... but that opinion was formed based on a lot of firsthand and secondhand observation in the place where they were built and used the most.
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      01-17-2020, 05:52 PM   #29
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My personal experience with both brands is that Porsche far more bullet-proof than Mercedes. had transmission and air suspension failures which left me stranded. Went to BMW for the superior warranty and never been back. The Porsche's I had were pretty much unkillable and had only one stranding in a 911 turbo but it was 1/4 mile from my house.
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      01-19-2020, 06:42 PM   #30
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But comparing the interior of a 20 year old Lexus to a 20 year old Mercedes, Audi, or BMW and you can see how much better the German car's interior withstood time. Every old Lexus interior I see looks worn down and beaten while the German just looks boring.

Step back 40 years to a Mercedes 450SL or SEL and their interior looks as modern as today. Many of them are still in excellent condition now.
Interesting take. I personally feel the old Japanese interiors have aged better. Their designs in the 90s were so plain that they didn't even look that old in the '00s and early '10s. To add to that, the materials seemed to have held up better.

When I sit in an old Bimmer or Merc a lot of the plastics have gone to hell, stuff is chipping and creaking, etc.
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      01-19-2020, 08:13 PM   #31
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Interesting take. I personally feel the old Japanese interiors have aged better. Their designs in the 90s were so plain that they didn't even look that old in the '00s and early '10s. To add to that, the materials seemed to have held up better.

When I sit in an old Bimmer or Merc a lot of the plastics have gone to hell, stuff is chipping and creaking, etc.
Maybe it's only in the midwest but old Japanese car interior looks like hell.

But here's a typical 11 year old BMW in my neck of the woods.

https://www.usedcarsplymouthmi.com/a...ymouth-MI-1322
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