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      03-13-2019, 05:58 PM   #45
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Well you can't just turn off levels of software and keep flying them. The aircraft is certified to have all levels operating and obviously still be flyable in lesser modes of operation.

However, the aircraft can not be dispatched (released for flight) unless it is operating per its certification.
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      03-13-2019, 06:08 PM   #46
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Fortunes to be made for narrow body dry and wet lease companies during this time.
I buy aircraft for a living and without the reports being completed Iím always hesitant to comment on my thoughts, that said I do believe this is a manufacturer defect rather than poor pilot or maintenance practices.
Thoughts go out to those that have lost their lives and for those having to now rectify the issues if any, itís one hell of a job to put your name against thatís for sure.
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      03-13-2019, 06:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Well you can't just turn off levels of software and keep flying them. The aircraft is certified to have all levels operating and obviously still be flyable in lesser modes of operation.

However, the aircraft can not be dispatched (released for flight) unless it is operating per its certification.
Unless you litter it with a huge MEL stack...
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      03-13-2019, 06:24 PM   #48
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Unless you litter it with a huge MEL stack...
Which I've done.

4 leg days which no autothrottles makes for a very, very long day.
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      03-13-2019, 08:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
I think 346 victims for half a year - it is a valid reason for suspension of all flights of this type aircraft
TU-154 hass killed many many thousands of passengers. Make sure your life insurance is paid up before you board one..or better yet..don't
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      03-13-2019, 08:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
TU-154
Be afraid, be very afraid...
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      03-13-2019, 09:11 PM   #51
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I had no idea these were being built at a rate of 1/day. They had a goal to bump that up!
https://www.boeing.com/company/about...-07-28-17.page
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      03-14-2019, 12:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I'm no pilot, and I DIDN'T stay at Holiday Inn Express last night, but who TF takes off on auto-pilot????

And with such a program in place, how do you put it in A-P and NOT know how to disable it in an emergency?

Curious also about the maintenance records. Not positive that the criteria in some countries beside first-world are quite as stringent.
I have a close friend who is a pilot, he explained it to me so I'll try to relay it, but I'm no expert.

The issue sounds like it could be with the software that prevents tail strikes. A tail strike is when a plane lands or takes off at too steep of an angle and the rear of the plane makes contact with the runway. The max 8 is longer so it apparently can't get as aggressive with approach/departure angles as other 737s. To avoid this some software was put in to automatically level the plane out if the sensor determines a tail strike is likely to occur. The thought is the system is flawed or perhaps the sensor is flawed which results in the plane automatically nosing down to avoid the tail strike. So if the plane is actually level, but the system takes over, it'll attempt to point the nose down.

This is of course still theories, but sounds like it could be a cause or potential cause.
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      03-14-2019, 02:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pz619 View Post
To avoid this some software was put in to automatically level the plane out if the sensor determines a tail strike is likely to occur. The thought is the system is flawed or perhaps the sensor is flawed which results in the plane automatically nosing down to avoid the tail strike. So if the plane is actually level, but the system takes over, it'll attempt to point the nose down.
Maybe right after take off, or the technical term is "right after rotate", but does it make sense for the software to continue to intervene long after the airplane has taken off? Obviously the pilot was still struggling with the controls long after taken off.

By the way, is there like a button that the pilot can turn off the software? Or it's more like Boeing Idrive that you have to scroll through a bunch of windows lols?
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      03-14-2019, 03:02 PM   #54
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I suspect that the typical commercial passenger airline has dozens if not hundreds of electronic nannies that to dedicate an ďon/offĒ switch for each one would result in a veritable wall of override switches. I could be wrong though.
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      03-14-2019, 04:28 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
I suspect that the typical commercial passenger airline has dozens if not hundreds of electronic nannies that to dedicate an “on/off” switch for each one would result in a veritable wall of override switches. I could be wrong though.
You would be correct
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      03-14-2019, 04:53 PM   #56
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Weren't some of the anonymous reports to Boeing, from pilots, that they didn't know how to turn said tail strike sensor?
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      03-14-2019, 06:06 PM   #57
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This could get very expensive for BA...
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      03-14-2019, 06:31 PM   #58
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If this proves to be software related, I’d be curious how the public will react to further software intervention with automobile automation, as well as airplanes.
We seem to be absolutely fixated on removing the human equation and have a unjustified faith in technology.

The immediate grounding of the jet in Europe was no surprise, as its home fir airbus.
The last grounding of Boeing was no surprise, as Boeing is based in the US.
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      03-14-2019, 06:34 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pz619 View Post
To avoid this some software was put in to automatically level the plane out if the sensor determines a tail strike is likely to occur. The thought is the system is flawed or perhaps the sensor is flawed which results in the plane automatically nosing down to avoid the tail strike. So if the plane is actually level, but the system takes over, it'll attempt to point the nose down.
Maybe right after take off, or the technical term is "right after rotate", but does it make sense for the software to continue to intervene long after the airplane has taken off? Obviously the pilot was still struggling with the controls long after taken off.

By the way, is there like a button that the pilot can turn off the software? Or it's more like Boeing Idrive that you have to scroll through a bunch of windows lols?
I don't think so. I believe this is the same size as the 737 400, and the 737 800 advanced.
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      03-14-2019, 07:25 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .2pdk View Post
This could get very expensive for BA...
For the airliners who have to ground the 737's, can they sue Boeing for the financial loses? Also I assume it will take quite a few months to certify the new software updates since it's not like downloading a bunch of software updates to your laptops from your kitchen lols. Yup, this could prove very costly for Boeing. When can I buy the stocks :-)
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      03-14-2019, 08:01 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
For the airliners who have to ground the 737's, can they sue Boeing for the financial loses? Also I assume it will take quite a few months to certify the new software updates since it's not like downloading a bunch of software updates to your laptops from your kitchen lols. Yup, this could prove very costly for Boeing. When can I buy the stocks :-)
Impossible to tell if mkt has discounted the unknowns here, still early.

737 order book is strong.

For now...
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      03-15-2019, 10:07 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I'm no pilot, and I DIDN'T stay at Holiday Inn Express last night, but who TF takes off on auto-pilot????

And with such a program in place, how do you put it in A-P and NOT know how to disable it in an emergency?

Curious also about the maintenance records. Not positive that the criteria in some countries beside first-world are quite as stringent.
Let's not rush to judgement and wait for the facts.

Auto pilots in commercial aircrafts cannot be used for take offs, however, they can be used for landings if:
1. The company has received special authorization.
2. The aircraft is certified for auto landings.
3. The crew is specifically trained and certified for such operation.

Most airlines/operators have mandatory autopilot engagement altitude; this is to reduce the pilot's workload during critical phases of flight. Aircrafts also have specific limitation on autopilot engagement and disengagement altitudes. Additional regulatory limitations are imposed depending on the operation of the aircraft.

Auto-pilot disengagement is relatively simply and can be done several ways; the simplest and most convenient is usually done by pressing a trigger on the yoke.

It is alway better to error on the side of caution than be sorry; the devastation from a single commercial plane crash can and will impact many lives and generations. I think Boeing dropped the ball on this one, hence the backlash. It is possible that the a/c is/was safe to fly, and that the accidents, though similar are unrelated, however, Boeing's response was inadequate at best. After the Lion Air crash Boeing should have been more proactive to assist and quickly conclude/rule out and or address the issue, however, their response was simply too causal. After the second crash especially with reports of control issues similar to that of the previous crash, Boeing should have immediately sent their brightest minds to the scene to quickly assist while reassuring operators and passengers with data that the aircraft was and still is safe to operate. The casual post/tweet was insensitive.

The documentary below gives and example of compounding failures/issues and highlights software/computer issues and limitations.

Qantas Flight 32

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x546g0c

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...e-blow-350487/

Last edited by Animal Farm; 03-18-2019 at 01:44 PM.. Reason: typo (scene)
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      03-15-2019, 11:09 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
The seats smelled like urine and fear.
You sat in multiple seats on a single flight?
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      03-15-2019, 11:15 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
You sat in multiple seats on a single flight?
I've seen people who have had to buy multiple seats. They are not the thin people.......
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      03-15-2019, 11:19 AM   #65
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Oh PenGwan, you so funny
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      03-15-2019, 11:24 AM   #66
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I hate you.
I've been waiting


Now I must go clean coffee from keyboard
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