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      01-03-2020, 06:27 AM   #23
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      01-03-2020, 07:17 AM   #24
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Bmw is Like Apple now. They dont bring nothing new to the Market, lost Their way. I had e46, e39,e53 and i was So proud because they were the best in class.
Not sure what it means when we read "BMW have lost their way".

Is it a few enthusiasts, lamenting a changing world? Which BMW have to keep in their sights for future sales. Or is it BMW appear to be slow to respond to the future, like "where are the EV models?"

From my observation, the whole motor industry is in a very difficult and fluid place at the moment, and it will take a while to clear the fog, see what course really should be pursued.

The motor car as we knew it is never coming back, user expectations have changed. Maybe, just maybe, BMW do have their finger on the pulse.
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      01-03-2020, 07:39 AM   #25
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Just my opinion. But the way I see it, BMW is having an identity crisis. They built their reputation and heritage on being enthusiast oriented. Then wanted to broaden their market to encompass more of the masses. Doing this is extremely difficult and even more so being successful at it.

Different industry, but I saw this with the niche A/V market. There were brands that got their start catering to the audiophile/videophile what have you. Once they started to set their market goals to encompass the mass market, those companies got into serious trouble. Many went bankrupt. Many had to be absorbed by a larger conglomerate. And others are only a shell of what they once were.

In my opinion, BMW needs to stick to a specific market segment and be good at that instead of being mediocre across different market segments. At the M Car Control Clinic last year, I had a conversation with one of the instructors about current M cars. It's pretty telling that he said he didn't like any of them except the M2.
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      01-03-2020, 08:25 AM   #26
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Being a former lexus owner, I can understand why people prefer them over the German brands. Aside from the bullet-proof reliability, there's a level of fit and finish and comfort that the German brands can't compete with at the same price point. You have to really get up into the higher priced German models to get that same level of comfort.

So if you take a look at the type of vehicles typically associated with comfort, i.e. SUV's, Lexus dominates in that segment because they cater to what the typical SUV driver looks for. Most SUV drivers couldn't care less about performance or advanced technology. They want a vehicle that is comfortable, quiet, and reliable at a reasonable price.

On the opposite end of that spectrum, if you look at compact/mid-size sport sedans, Lexus struggles, because buyers from that segment are more inclined to look for performance and technology. Although lexus has made strides in the performance category (relative to their older models), the technology is just not up to par yet, and that hearkens back their pursuit of being at the top of reliability charts. The more tech you pack into a car, the greater probability for things to go wrong.
There's no excuse for a company like Lexus to build such slow, heavy, thirsty and poor handling cars today. There's more to the strive for perfection in a car than reliability, much, much more and these dinosaurs just aren't cutting it in 2020.
Loyal Toyota customers want a reliable, functional appliance that's relatively easy and inexpensive to maintain. Their cars are still fuel efficient enough, and those buying a truck or large suv are willing to accept poor fuel economy for the increased functionality.

The main draw to Toyota, though, is in the reliability, and many consumers consider this to be one of, if not, the most important factor in buying a car. Reputed reliability also, largely, drives value in the used market, and favorable depreciation rates for their models.

Toyota already nailed the reliability formula decades ago, and they've stuck with that formula. If they were to compete at the forefront of modern automotive technology like forced induction, autonomous driving features, high tech infotainment, etc, there would experience inevitable growing pains, and similar bugs and issues that brands like bmw experience, which would tarnish their reputation among their customer base. Toyota drivers don't understand why we spend more to buy a car with shaky reliability and technology that works ok, only sometimes. Bmw enthusiasts strike loyal Toyota drivers as odd, or exercising poor judgement in choosing a car, or as badge snobs who are only concerned with impressing people. Of course I don't agree with this, but it's the type of reception I generally get from those who drive Toyota models.

Currently Toyota sells more automobiles than anyone else by a wide margin. I'd imagine that eventually they will have to evolve. In the meantime, for anyone complaining that they can no longer get a luxury sport sedan/coupe with a na, high-strung v8, look no further than the Lexus RCF and LSF.
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      01-03-2020, 08:57 AM   #27
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Just my opinion. But the way I see it, BMW is having an identity crisis. They built their reputation and heritage on being enthusiast oriented. Then wanted to broaden their market to encompass more of the masses. Doing this is extremely difficult and even more so being successful at it.

Different industry, but I saw this with the niche A/V market. There were brands that got their start catering to the audiophile/videophile what have you. Once they started to set their market goals to encompass the mass market, those companies got into serious trouble. Many went bankrupt. Many had to be absorbed by a larger conglomerate. And others are only a shell of what they once were.

In my opinion, BMW needs to stick to a specific market segment and be good at that instead of being mediocre across different market segments. At the M Car Control Clinic last year, I had a conversation with one of the instructors about current M cars. It's pretty telling that he said he didn't like any of them except the M2.

You are certainly echoing my opinion, but, I'm not the person car makers are looking at as I keep cars for a long time and don't care too much about technology and gadgetry. I think the bulk of the car market doesn't care about driving dynamics and are more into the 'stuff' in the car. I recently had a Toyota Rav4 as a rental. Drives fine, quite comfortable seating and more features on the touch screen than my laptop. So if I'm looking for a car and driving good is good enough (and I'm not status conscious) why get a finnicky expensive and expensive to keep running BMW?
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      01-03-2020, 09:33 AM   #28
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I must be very odd then because for decades I’ve owned a BMW AND a 4R. They both do exactly as they were designed to do perfectly for me.

The day CNBC can accurately predict the stock market is the day I may consider what they have to say about cars.
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      01-03-2020, 10:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Thereís no excuse for a company like Lexus to build such slow, heavy, thirsty and poor handling cars today.
Of course there is - because they still sell all of them and spent nothing in R&D
Toyota likes to make money and stay dominant, their corporate culture is they will change nothing or as little as possible in order not to alienate their core, and only add what is required by legislation (or being shamed into it).
They are looking at the super long term and don't get stuck in fads only refine refine refine.

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      01-03-2020, 11:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Just my opinion. But the way I see it, BMW is having an identity crisis. They built their reputation and heritage on being enthusiast oriented. Then wanted to broaden their market to encompass more of the masses. Doing this is extremely difficult and even more so being successful at it.

Different industry, but I saw this with the niche A/V market. There were brands that got their start catering to the audiophile/videophile what have you. Once they started to set their market goals to encompass the mass market, those companies got into serious trouble. Many went bankrupt. Many had to be absorbed by a larger conglomerate. And others are only a shell of what they once were.

In my opinion, BMW needs to stick to a specific market segment and be good at that instead of being mediocre across different market segments. At the M Car Control Clinic last year, I had a conversation with one of the instructors about current M cars. It's pretty telling that he said he didn't like any of them except the M2.
good analogy, but do you expect them to really shrink their product line and niches they helped create? the enthusiast in me says they should, but from a business perspective, as one of the only independent manufacturers, that could be the kiss of death.

unfortunately, car enthusiasts are a small sector of the market and the more we complain, the smaller we get and become an afterthought to BMW. this has been happening over several years now and you see where it's going...
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      01-03-2020, 11:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ThatKrazyPolak View Post
I always have a problem with such brands being labeled as "luxury" brands. Sure, BMW's cost a premium because it is a luxury brand, but you are ultimately paying for a better handling vehicle.

I was born in the states, but being of European descent, I was brought up with the mindset that European brands, although pricier, are of better quality. Although our world is changing, I still believe this is relatively true. Just go to Europe and taste the food for gods sake.

Infuriating how CNBC follows the quintessential American tropes of your paying for a luxury vehicle when you are in essence, paying for better engineering.

If you don't have " f you" money and are buying these cars just for the badge or to keep up with the joneses, your an idiot.
Depends on your definition of quality.

Does it relate to
Maintenance intervals?
Durability?
Reliability?

For example compared to a Toyota V6 it costs about the same to replace the valve cover gasket on a N55. The difference is that the gasket on the Toyota will fail at 2x-3x the mileage that it typically fails on the N55. This has not changed in decades.

BMW simply refuses to use gasket material which can last over 100k miles. So in the eyes of many this is a sign of poor quality.
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      01-03-2020, 11:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Just my opinion. But the way I see it, BMW is having an identity crisis. They built their reputation and heritage on being enthusiast oriented. Then wanted to broaden their market to encompass more of the masses. Doing this is extremely difficult and even more so being successful at it.

Different industry, but I saw this with the niche A/V market. There were brands that got their start catering to the audiophile/videophile what have you. Once they started to set their market goals to encompass the mass market, those companies got into serious trouble. Many went bankrupt. Many had to be absorbed by a larger conglomerate. And others are only a shell of what they once were.

In my opinion, BMW needs to stick to a specific market segment and be good at that instead of being mediocre across different market segments. At the M Car Control Clinic last year, I had a conversation with one of the instructors about current M cars. It's pretty telling that he said he didn't like any of them except the M2.
The emotional side of me agrees entirely, but the logical side knows this is a sure way to tank sales.
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      01-03-2020, 11:28 AM   #33
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unfortunately, car enthusiasts are a small sector of the market and the more we complain, the smaller we get and become an afterthought to BMW. this has been happening over several years now and you see where it's going...
Agree.

As I see it, the enthusiast group is shrinking all the time, motoring is changing, we change, or get left behind. When we make threats like, "this will be my last BMW", "I'm off to Porsche" or the like, BMW may lose a few sales, but many more will choose a BMW, because the models are changing with the times and current demands.

We must remember even Porsche enthusiasts are making similar complaints about their brand, as Porsche are also moving with the times.

Just a side note, being around the forums for a few years, even some users and enthusiasts on here are not really wanting to go back to the BMW's of old. But that's for another topic and much wider discussion.
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      01-03-2020, 06:28 PM   #34
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Agree.

As I see it, the enthusiast group is shrinking all the time, motoring is changing, we change, or get left behind. When we make threats like, "this will be my last BMW", "I'm off to Porsche" or the like, BMW may lose a few sales, but many more will choose a BMW, because the models are changing with the times and current demands.

We must remember even Porsche enthusiasts are making similar complaints about their brand, as Porsche are also moving with the times.

Just a side note, being around the forums for a few years, even some users and enthusiasts on here are not really wanting to go back to the BMW's of old. But that's for another topic and much wider discussion.


I've been pining over the E46/E90 days for as long as i can remember but BMW even has me double guessing now with the G20. It's an all around perfect little package. It's not going to please die hard enthusiasts and it's also not going to please the Lexus comfort crowd that BMW tried to cater to with the F30. (although the latter will be more forgiving and many will buy it). It's a great balance. Very well engineered car that can easily be driven fast but is also effortless to drive in this exceedingly populated and traffic filled world.

There is no going back to those days. Cars are changing. It's no longer a market where the E90 stood out just based on driving dynamics and nothing else to show for it. (ok materials, halogens, leatherette, manual seats, etc.) Now even entry level cars come with so many gimmicks and tech that driving dynamics are an after thought.

And BMW has to sell cars to those masses that eat that stuff up and can't solely cater to 1-5% of their enthusiast customer base that just values driving dynamics. Quite frankly, we should consider ourselves lucky that BMW even improved the steering/handling and listened to us. The F30 outsold the E90 by a considerable margin. The formula worked for them. Yet they still listened and that might cost them more sales than if they had continued on the same path.
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      01-03-2020, 07:09 PM   #35
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https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1682638

So is CNBC going to release an updated video?
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      01-03-2020, 10:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1682638

So is CNBC going to release an updated video?
Lol, I was going to ask the same thing. I think that makes sense given that G20 3 series turned out to be very good.
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      01-03-2020, 10:32 PM   #37
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The article completely missed the pivot bmw made toward profit per unit by reducing lease incentives and inflated residuals. That was a primary driver of the mix shift between the brands.
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      01-04-2020, 01:30 AM   #38
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https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1682638

So is CNBC going to release an updated video?
There you go, problem solved.
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      01-04-2020, 06:18 AM   #39
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Garbage reporting. Showing photos and videos of decade old and discontinued BMWs.
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      01-04-2020, 12:11 PM   #40
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The article completely missed the pivot bmw made toward profit per unit by reducing lease incentives and inflated residuals. That was a primary driver of the mix shift between the brands.
It's easier to push a false narrative by just looking at statistics on the surface. Seems par for the course for the media today.

And the average onlooker just eats it all up.
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      01-04-2020, 03:41 PM   #41
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Not sure what it means when we read "BMW have lost their way".

Is it a few enthusiasts, lamenting a changing world? Which BMW have to keep in their sights for future sales. Or is it BMW appear to be slow to respond to the future, like "where are the EV models?"

From my observation, the whole motor industry is in a very difficult and fluid place at the moment, and it will take a while to clear the fog, see what course really should be pursued.

The motor car as we knew it is never coming back, user expectations have changed. Maybe, just maybe, BMW do have their finger on the pulse.
I think you are on the right track there Highland Pete and here's why. BMW has several outstanding new products but they've just recently upgraded the 3 series which is their bread and butter sedan. Purchased a new m340i for my wife before Christmas and it truly is an impressive car. Upgraded from a 4 series 440i gran coupe and its much faster and a lot more fun. 382 HP with similar performance (a tick or two slower) to an M3 competition according to Car and Driver. I love it and I'm driving an M6 comp as my daily. All new electronics and everything to do with the motor's and suspension settings individually adjustable...Feels like a great value for the price!
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      01-04-2020, 04:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by phillyd2 View Post
I must be very odd then because for decades Iíve owned a BMW AND a 4R. They both do exactly as they were designed to do perfectly for me.

The day CNBC can accurately predict the stock market is the day I may consider what they have to say about cars.
The same experience here - 3 4Runners and 3 BMWs of ownership in the recent history. Both cars were purchased for different reasons.

Global company cannot grow profitably within one market segment. It has to grow profitably in other market segments. Diluting 3 series spirit with F30 was a questionable decision. I owned 2013 BMW 335i sedan and still enjoyed it immensely - albeit with KW Street Comfort coilovers. X5 was a success and still is. X7 is selling very well.

While nothing is perfect, the recent departure of BWM CEO is evidence of leadership change long overdue.
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      01-04-2020, 04:15 PM   #43
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I think you are on the right track there Highland Pete and here's why. BMW has several outstanding new products but they've just recently upgraded the 3 series which is their bread and butter sedan. Purchased a new m340i for my wife before Christmas and it truly is an impressive car. Upgraded from a 4 series 440i gran coupe and its much faster and a lot more fun. 382 HP with similar performance (a tick or two slower) to an M3 competition according to Car and Driver. I love it and I'm driving an M6 comp as my daily. All new electronics and everything to do with the motor's and suspension settings individually adjustable...Feels like a great value for the price!
I can only really appreciate the motor industry from the UK (European) perspective. I sense from reading over here, that BMW are not far off the mark for supplying user needs. Perhaps BMW missed a trick, by not supplying an F3x model as an M340i/440i. Now filling a gap in the range, which they clearly see is more important than a straight G20 340i.

As to knowing the market and keeping abreast of user demands, BMW appear to be doing well. We have a lot of company and fleet users over here, which is a big part of the motor market in the UK. (Not sure of the latest figures, but was something like 50% of UK BMW's go to the Company car user and Fleet markets). In 2019 BMW was voted "Fleet Manufacturer of the Year" by FleetNews. FleetNews has its finger on the pulse for what users value and require, particularly high mileage users.

For the second consecutive year, the BMW 5 Series has remained at the top of its class – having won the same FleetNews award as in 2018, "Executive Car of the year". Their comment, really says it all.

Quote:
Driveability was the key reason for its success. Judges felt that nothing else in the segment offered the same combination of engagement and refinement, making it a favourite with drivers.
I'm sure the new G2x models will do well in the coming months, certainly back to top of the class in most UK comparisons and reviews.
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      01-04-2020, 07:17 PM   #44
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BMW beat Mercedes in sales 2019

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1683038
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