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      02-24-2020, 08:07 PM   #111
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Backdoor Roth process:

1. Make a non deductible contribution to a traditional IRA
2. Convert the contribution to Roth

Just that simple. You can do this for both you and a spouse.

Some gotchas:

1. If you have any money anywhere in a traditional IRA, you will be subject to the pro rata rule and that can create some serious reporting and tax headaches. So, if you already have money in tIRAs, then get really smart or find a CPA that is really smart (most are clueless when it comes to backdoor Roths). If you do have tIRAs and a 401k, you could see if you can roll the tIRAs into your 401k if your 401k allows it and your 401k has good funds. 401k balances are not subject to the pro rata rule.
2. If you have ANY earnings on the tIRA contributions when you do the conversion, you can leave them in the tIRA and pay no taxes. But that will create headaches if you want to do another backdoor Roth next year. What I do is just convert the earnings to Roth and pay the taxes at the time. Since I only wait a week between contributing to the tIRA and converting to Roth, I usually have no earnings. Makes life easier.

3. Filling out the 8606 tax form is a must and can be baffling. I keep very careful track of all of my Roth conversions as well as filing the 8606.

Withdrawing from a Roth is fairly complex if you have contributions, conversions and/or earnings. If you are over 59 1/2, withdraw away. No taxes, no penalties. If you are under 59 1/2, you can always withdraw contributions tax and penalty free. But a backdoor Roth is NOT a contribution, it is a conversion and that has special rules for withdrawals. Here are the Roth withdrawal rules:

ORDER OF DISTRIBUTIONS
Regular contributions
Taxable portion of first conversion
Nontaxable portion of first conversion
Each subsequent conversion, in order, with the taxable portion coming out first for each conversion
Earnings (any increase in value occurring inside the Roth IRA)

TAXES AND PENALTIES

UNDER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEAR CONVERSION HOLDING PERIOD NOT MET
Contributions: Tax-No; Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-Yes (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No ;Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-Yes

UNDER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEAR CONVERSION HOLDING PERIOD MET
Contributions: Tax-No; Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-Yes

OVER AGE 59.5
LESS THAN FIVE YEARS SINCE OPENING FIRST ROTH IRA
Contributions: Tax-No ;Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-No

OVER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEARS OR MORE SINCE OPENING FIRST ROTH IRA
All Distributions Are Qualified
No Taxes
No Penalties

Another very cool option is the mega backdoor Roth. This is where you make after tax contributions to your 401k (not Roth 401k) and then do an in-service rollover of that money into an external Roth. Your plan needs to allow this. Mine does and I have been cramming $19,500 a year into my Roth. Add that to the $14k between my wife and I backdoor Roths, and we are putting a lot of money each year into our Roths. By the time I retire, there will be a significant balance in all of our Roths. And it has a lot of earnings that will come out tax free.

Are you cornfused now? I'm still not sure I get all the little details, but I am comfortable putting the money in.
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      02-24-2020, 08:17 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
hmmm
how?

is it because if you are past a certain income level, you can't get tax deduction for the traditional IRA contribution anyway? so you're already taxed on the money so it avoid being taxed on the back end?

i'd check to make sure 100% how it works
because you don't want to put away all this money thinking you're going to take your money out of a "Roth" and then end up owing taxes
(i'm genuinely asking because i've kinda heard about this "backdoor Roth IRA" thing and want to do it as well)
because its a roth. roth is money that you've already paid taxes on. the growth is tax free.
i have $12k that is in my bank account that i already paid income taxes on. $6k is for me, and $6k is for my wife. we can each have a roth ira. we had to do a "backdoor" because of the income limitations. i know for a fact there is no taxes to be paid because my wife didn't have a roth before. we opened the account and maxed it out ($6k) and no taxes were taken.
you can't open a roth ira if your modified adjusted gross income is over $190k or something like that. you can, however, open an ira. there are no rules prohibiting rolling an ira into a roth ira, but you have to abide by the contribution limits of the roth ira, which is $6k. makes sense? its a legal loophole.

its a beneficial supplement to retirement. i invest approximately 18% of my income (not including rental property, or my wife's income). my wife has a small 401k from work we contribute to just to get the small match. we're 33 so we have some ways to go, but we're off to a great start. the roth's are going to be a good tool to maybe keep us under a certain tax bracket at retirement.
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      02-25-2020, 03:43 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corn18 View Post
Are you cornfused now? I'm still not sure I get all the little details, but I am comfortable putting the money in.
lol yes

i do have some money in a traditional IRA that i opened a few years ago
plus a very small SEP IRA as well
i'll definitely need to speak to a professional about this
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      02-25-2020, 08:00 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
lol yes

i do have some money in a traditional IRA that i opened a few years ago
plus a very small SEP IRA as well
i'll definitely need to speak to a professional about this
if you're ever in south oc, i have a guy with edward jones that i like i could refer you to. these guys aren't different in what they do, but pick a guy that is willing to take the time to teach you what is going on and explain it to you.
what i like about my guy is he took the time to discuss my overall picture of my financial situation, investments, and future goals. he's not an advisor in a sense where he's counseling me with real estate or tax advice, but the best ways to supplement what i already have in place.
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      02-27-2020, 04:37 PM   #115
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bimmerfrk out with his friends:

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      02-27-2020, 04:59 PM   #116
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when does he get back in?
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      02-27-2020, 05:08 PM   #117
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Anytime he wants at this point, but I wouldn’t rush if I were him. This corona news is likely going to worsen for a while if I had to guess. He made a fortuitous call and can nibble his way back in until comfortable to go all in again.
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      02-27-2020, 05:26 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfrk View Post
Your dollar today will be .75 cents in the future really due to inflation. You had a poor finance professor.
That isn't what it means though.

Would you rather have $1 today? or maybe $2 tomorrow? or maybe its $0.75 like you say but due to the stock value.

Maybe the CEO of the company went on a podcast and smoked weed and the shareholders all sold sold sold the next day.

The dumbest stuff can affect stock markets.
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      02-27-2020, 05:27 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Anytime he wants at this point, but I wouldn't rush if I were him. This corona news is likely going to worsen for a while if I had to guess. He made a fortuitous call and can nibble his way back in until comfortable to go all in again.
Blood all over Wall Street with no indication of slowing down. Market closed at its lows today. I'm good till the dust settles. Don't get me wrong I had no idea this was coming I just followed my gut that market was overbought this virus shit is just a multiplier.

It is a bit scary though. It's going to get worse in the US before it gets better for sure.
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      02-27-2020, 05:35 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Anytime he wants at this point, but I wouldn’t rush if I were him. This corona news is likely going to worsen for a while if I had to guess. He made a fortuitous call and can nibble his way back in until comfortable to go all in again.
Q1 earnings season will be a good yardstick for the direct impact to earnings and outlooks for rest of 1st half.
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      02-27-2020, 05:49 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfrk View Post
Blood all over Wall Street with no indication of slowing down. Market closed at its lows today. I'm good till the dust settles. Don't get me wrong I had no idea this was coming I just followed my gut that market was overbought this virus shit is just a multiplier.

It is a bit scary though. It's going to get worse in the US before it gets better for sure.
I don’t blame you. I’m not jumping out because I think those in should just ride it out and focus on the long term. But if I were out like you I wouldn’t be eager to jump back in yet. You can miss a whole lot of rebound and still be ahead.
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      02-27-2020, 06:49 PM   #122
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Interviewee on Bloomberg Radio reiterated strong fundamentals. The economic backdrop is strong, world events are a temporary distraction.

Another interviewee, Chief Clinical Officer at a Seattle hospital, on a separate segment of Bloomberg Radio, said very little to convince me that the virus is hardly more than a severe flu. She said, in essence, "stay home if you are sick." We knew that already.

With respect and empathy to the sick, this is not a global cataclysm.

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      02-27-2020, 07:36 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Interviewee on Bloomberg Radio reiterated strong fundamentals. The economic backdrop is strong, world events are a temporary distraction.

Another interviewee, Chief Clinical Officer at a Seattle hospital, on a separate segment of Bloomberg Radio, said very little to convince me that the virus is hardly more than a severe flue. She said, in essence, "stay home if you are sick." We knew that already.

With respect and empathy to the sick, this is not a global cataclysm.
I don’t think the market is reflecting a panic that we are entering a period like in the Walking Dead. I think the market concern is that the news will clearly affect human and corporate behavior, most notably reduced consumption and spending. This would obviously affect global economic growth by definition, as well as corporate earnings. The issue is the unknown amount of impact - how severe and for how long.

Interesting that you quoted Bloomberg Radio. I saw a commercial by Mike Bloomberg today saying he knows how to deal with a pandemic or something like that. Given the election cycle we are in, there is also an incentive for some to exasperate the public perception for perceived political gain, which will fuel economic concerns.

Edit - here it is:

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      02-28-2020, 09:07 AM   #124
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I think it's entirely possible that the coronavirus is the catalyst for a market downturn that was a long time coming... hang on people.
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      02-28-2020, 09:25 AM   #125
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If you are in the accumulation phase, then this is a normal, healthy correction. If you are close to retirement, might have to work another year. If you just retired, panic at the disco. If you have been retired a while, well, it is what it is.
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      02-28-2020, 10:33 AM   #126
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      02-28-2020, 10:45 AM   #127
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Overreaction and extreme fear is driving the market right. The market was overvalued and Wall Streeter's rose colored glasses have skewed financial reality. Yeah, my portfolio has taken a deep 6 figure hit in the past few days and it hurts. But, I've been here SO many times. I'm 45 and will just wait this out. I could see it continue to go further and further. Then, all of sudden, the market will shift dramatically on something positive. Likely due to news of an effective Coronavirus vaccine, declining affected/death rates, news that the virus isn't as dangerous as being perpetuated in the news, or even just some sanity and realization that the world is a chaotic place.

Remember, the one's steering the ship on Wall Street spend their days making money trading daily. That's their business. When they get spooked, they pull out out everything. That kills the market. For us smaller investors, we can't really do that without losing our ass in taxes, etc. because it's not our business line so we get pummeled in the short term.
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      02-28-2020, 11:52 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corn18 View Post
If you are in the accumulation phase, then this is a normal, healthy correction. If you are close to retirement, might have to work another year. If you just retired, panic at the disco. If you have been retired a while, well, it is what it is.
If you're close to retirement or already retired you shouldn't have been heavy in the market and this would have had minimal impact to the honey pot.
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      02-28-2020, 12:19 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Overreaction and extreme fear is driving the market right. The market was overvalued and Wall Streeter's rose colored glasses have skewed financial reality. Yeah, my portfolio has taken a deep 6 figure hit in the past few days and it hurts. But, I've been here SO many times. I'm 45 and will just wait this out. I could see it continue to go further and further. Then, all of sudden, the market will shift dramatically on something positive. Likely due to news of an effective Coronavirus vaccine, declining affected/death rates, news that the virus isn't as dangerous as being perpetuated in the news, or even just some sanity and realization that the world is a chaotic.

Remember, the one's steering the ship on Wall Street spend their days making money trading daily. That's their business. When they get spooked, the pull out out everything. That kills the marker. For us smaller investors, we can't really do that without losing our ass in taxes, etc. because it's our business line so we get pummeled in the short term.
pretty much. people get easily panicked and sell... and just as easily see a good news article or some joe schmo financial analyst say something good about a company and everyone blindly runs to it (tesla / bitcoin)
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      02-28-2020, 12:44 PM   #130
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my fav warren buffet's quote: it is wise to be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful...
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      03-01-2020, 08:11 AM   #131
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If you're close to retirement or already retired you shouldn't have been heavy in the market and this would have had minimal impact to the honey pot.
Retirement is not the same as death. A person who retires at 65 might live 30 years. I’d consider that a long term investing horizon and include equities. Maybe you’d want less risk, but going to “zero” risk is, well, risky in the other direction (inflation for example).
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      03-01-2020, 08:45 AM   #132
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
If you're close to retirement or already retired you shouldn't have been heavy in the market and this would have had minimal impact to the honey pot.
Retirement is not the same as death. A person who retires at 65 might live 30 years. I’d consider that a long term investing horizon and include equities. Maybe you’d want less risk, but going to “zero” risk is, well, risky in the other direction (inflation for example).
Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
If you're close to retirement or already retired you shouldn't have been heavy in the market and this would have had minimal impact to the honey pot.
Retirement is not the same as death. A person who retires at 65 might live 30 years. I’d consider that a long term investing horizon and include equities. Maybe you’d want less risk, but going to “zero” risk is, well, risky in the other direction (inflation for example).
I agree. The old rule was to have the percentage of years left 30 in this case but that's pretty conservative.

Also in that scenario I'd be looking for a buying opportunity. Hopefully the markets continue to go down. I'm waiting for at least a 30% discount to take advantage of.
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