[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

Right, that's why every reviewer who tests the iX or i7 is blown away by the new B&W system and says that it's one of the best (if not the best) sound system on the market. It's because BMW got cheap and slacked on designing the car and positioning the speakers. Makes sense

But your 3 series don't have B&W branded sound systems, do they? A fully loaded 3/4 would have HK audio.

You still didn’t get my point and you are deviating.
First, of course a double number of speakers will sound better than half that number. So, why the comparison?
Second, your statement is exagerated. B&W are not Rolls Royce and that was my taken. Keeping your analogy, they are a 5 Series and not a Rolls Speaker, otherwise they will be in Rolls Royce which is not the case.

[elite-fusion]

I have earthquake subs currently (2-ohm) version, on a stock HK amp currently (still didnt get the Match10DSP), but I will tell you that the earthquakes PUMP! I have them turned down to -6 or -7 on the stock EQ through iDrive. I cannot comment on highs for these subs, but if you're looking for bass, earthquake will give you an earthquake feel no doubt, especially being under your ass, it is great. I am sure that once the Match10DSP is installed for me and tuned correctly, it will be a game changer over the stock one for sure.

SpiralOut you did an awesome writeup!!!! Thanks again for all the detailed work. If you have any additional pictures of how its wired etc, please post them Also, try out the REW that someone else posted since it looks like you can get yours tuned even further. This way, you can help me out when the time comes :-P lol

Either way, thanks for taking the time!

[jmciver]

So out of curiosity, for the OP (or anyone else with this setup) have you done any actual “EQ’ing” of the individual channels for your system yet?

After my experience setting up and tuning my UP10DSP for my HK equipped F80 M3 (which uses the MOST bus fiber optic interface as the signal input to the UP10DSP - which I believe to be a full frequency, raw and un-EQ’ed signal) I took a look at the UP10DSP setup file for the HK/RAM systems provided by AF, which takes all of the HK/RAM speaker outputs as the sound input to the UP10DSP. The setup file, which does not have any crossovers set, no EQ’ing and no time alignment set, merely routes the output of the HK/RAM to the corresponding output channel on the UP10DSP.

For example, the HK/RAM output for the front left speaker is routed to the front left channel of the UP10DSP, which is then connected to the front left factory speaker location. It is like this for every HK/RAM output channel in the AF setup file. So until changes are made to the UP10DSP (i.e. EQ’ing, time alignment, etc), the UP10DSP is merely amplifying the factory sound signal for each speaker in the car, including any factory EQ’ing, crossovers, etc.

But what this setup file does not appear to do is to sum the input channels appropriately, so that the UP10DSP has a true, full frequency signal to work with and EQ (i.e. “tune”) for the output channels. So for example, to get a full frequency signal for any of the left channels, I would setup the UP10DSP to “sum” the HK/RAM front left output with the HK/RAM front left underseat woofer output. Then with this full frequency signal in the UP10DSP, you can set your own crossovers, etc. and continue with the tuning of the system.

Has anybody setting up the UP10DSP for HK/RAM equipped cars thought of this yet? Or even better, taken a measurement of the stock output signals to see how heavily EQ’ed the stock HK/RAM signals may be? Also, if I am thinking about this correctly regarding summing the appropriate channels to get a full frequency singnal to work with, the ANALOG MEC card add on, which is merely to get the HK/RAM center channel output, would not be needed since the UP10DSP can create a center channel output from the right and left channels…

I may post some screenshots of the DSP software to help better explain what I am talking about in order to help further the discussion…

Edit..
For the screenshots below, the first two are the input and output routing of the HK/RAM signals from the "default" file provided on the AF site. The second two screenshots are what I would think the input and output routing should be, assuming all of the sound info is coming from the front left/right speakers and the left/right underseat woofers in order to provide a full frequency signal by summing these channels. I also renamed the inputs for better clarity (i.e. "Front L Full" to "Front L High") since the front speaker outputs of the HK/RAM really only represent the midrange and high range frequencies, not the full frequency spectrum.

The nice thing about the virtual channel processing of the UP10DSP is that the input signals can be routed to any/all of the output channels. What I provided below is one of many examples with how the signals can be routed/customized to take full advantage of the digital effects/processing inside the UP10DSP to get your system sounding the way you want....

[PinkNinja400Guy]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

First, of course a double number of speakers will sound better than half that number.

That is often not true. Adding more speakers requires a lot of engineering effort to make sure they sound good, otherwise it's very easy to degrade sound quality as you add more speakers. Many cars would be better off with less speakers in their sound system. But "number of speakers" is used for marketing so the manufacturers want to pump that up.

[Mr.blue]

Wow, great stuff. I am currently running the UP10 DSP amp but I am still using the Harmon Kardon speakers right now because I can’t decide on replacements. Instead, I am also running an Audison Subwoofer amp out of UDp10 line out with an JL audio 10 inch W7 sub box. It sounds really good but I still plan to upgrade the Harmon Kardon speakers if I keep the vehicle for at least another year. If not, I’ll just take it all out and get the B&W system in my next vehicle. It’s great to see some taking the time to upgrade the system, I was never sure what would fit other than Bavsound.

[kirky27]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

That is often not true. Adding more speakers requires a lot of engineering effort to make sure they sound good, otherwise it's very easy to degrade sound quality as you add more speakers. Many cars would be better off with less speakers in their sound system. But "number of speakers" is used for marketing so the manufacturers want to pump that up.

True

[-cj-]

Originally Posted by jBwFellow

Thanks SpiralOut!

Would you happen to have specific guidance on how to tune/adjust for the annoyingly amplified turn-signal and iDrive sounds that come with the Match UP install? The person who installed my UP8DSP claimed to know nothing about tuning those

After reading through dozens of completely off topic posts in this thread, I didn’t see an answer to this. OP, is this an issue you’re experiencing as well?

Thanks for the detailed write up OP. You are a trail blazer. I’ve done similar to my ride - the B&W Grills (eat your heart out anyone who has an issue with this), and BAV Sound speakers and woofers - which btw sound AMAZING compared to the stock HK.

OP, is there an output on the Match amp to connect an amplifier for a trunk subwoofer? I want to fill in the sound a bit more with lower freqs.

Great work.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by -cj-

After reading through dozens of completely off topic posts in this thread, I didn’t see an answer to this. OP, is this an issue you’re experiencing as well?

Thanks for the detailed write up OP. You are a trail blazer. I’ve done similar to my ride - the B&W Grills (eat your heart out anyone who has an issue with this), and BAV Sound speakers and woofers - which btw sound AMAZING compared to the stock HK.

OP, is there an output on the Match amp to connect an amplifier for a trunk subwoofer? I want to fill in the sound a bit more with lower freqs.

Great work.

Yes, there is a line out that can be used to power a separate subwoofer amplifier. That output is also part of the DSP as well so that you can tune it.

[TheACN]

This post should be a sticky thread on the top. Amazing work dude.

[SpiralOut]

I'm the OP here..... As a quick follow-up to this thread. Since the last post I have done a lot of research on REW using the vid series someone posted earlier in the thread..... great watch for those looking to get into this. I watched all the vids in the series at least twice and I have much better understanding of how to tune properly.

I went through an initial tuning using REW and results are very good. I still have some tweaking I'd like to do on the levels and time alignment, but it's acceptable where it's at for now until I find time to fix it. I used the jazzy excel tool to set my REW reference curves.... I actually created a custom curve with a little more bass in it and it's working great. Maybe a tad too much bass for things like hip hop/rap where they are bass heavy already, but pretty good for Rock/Metal which is what I listen to most. Takes time to do the tuning properly, especially for a noob, but it's worth the effort.

I have also switched Subs from Earthquake to the Focal 2-Ohm Subs. Earthquakes provide some pretty powerful lower end bass, but there was a lot of sound missing between the subs and where the door mids took over. I'm very happy with the Focal subs.... they still give good kick down low, but they have a warmer/fuller sound which helps fill in some of the low end that the earthquakes didn't have. When you look at the graphs, the frequency responses aren't all that different between the 2 brands, but I find the sound very different between the 2. Earthquakes were very peaky down low and then tapered off very quickly, Focals are still good on the low end but have a much better curve on the way down through the frequency range.

[SpiralOut]

Originally Posted by M Division

Learn to swim. Question authority. Spiral Out.

[TX-BMW]

Originally Posted by SpiralOut

All that with the RTA Mic is what I used. But I'm a total noob at this, I've done my tuning 3 times now and each time it sounds a bit better, but each time I see something I did wrong. One thing I was doing wrong was the pink noise. When tuning each speaker you should be using mono pink noise, and then when checking for instance Left and Right Fronts together, you should use the stereo pink noise.

I'm also digging into how to use REW, but there's a learning curve for that as well. Much respect to the pro tuners out there.... very unique skill to be able to do this properly.

Very nice write-up. Have you tried the Tune EQ capability? It looks like the Match Up 10DSP has that capability, the same as the Match Up 8DSP.

I'm not very good at tuning, but Tune EQ seemed to do a nice job. If I did it correctly, you run through the normal RTA process, run Tune EQ analysis, and then Set EQ.

[SpiralOut]

Originally Posted by jmciver

So out of curiosity, for the OP (or anyone else with this setup) have you done any actual “EQ’ing” of the individual channels for your system yet?

After my experience setting up and tuning my UP10DSP for my HK equipped F80 M3 (which uses the MOST bus fiber optic interface as the signal input to the UP10DSP - which I believe to be a full frequency, raw and un-EQ’ed signal) I took a look at the UP10DSP setup file for the HK/RAM systems provided by AF, which takes all of the HK/RAM speaker outputs as the sound input to the UP10DSP. The setup file, which does not have any crossovers set, no EQ’ing and no time alignment set, merely routes the output of the HK/RAM to the corresponding output channel on the UP10DSP.

For example, the HK/RAM output for the front left speaker is routed to the front left channel of the UP10DSP, which is then connected to the front left factory speaker location. It is like this for every HK/RAM output channel in the AF setup file. So until changes are made to the UP10DSP (i.e. EQ’ing, time alignment, etc), the UP10DSP is merely amplifying the factory sound signal for each speaker in the car, including any factory EQ’ing, crossovers, etc.

But what this setup file does not appear to do is to sum the input channels appropriately, so that the UP10DSP has a true, full frequency signal to work with and EQ (i.e. “tune”) for the output channels. So for example, to get a full frequency signal for any of the left channels, I would setup the UP10DSP to “sum” the HK/RAM front left output with the HK/RAM front left underseat woofer output. Then with this full frequency signal in the UP10DSP, you can set your own crossovers, etc. and continue with the tuning of the system.

Has anybody setting up the UP10DSP for HK/RAM equipped cars thought of this yet? Or even better, taken a measurement of the stock output signals to see how heavily EQ’ed the stock HK/RAM signals may be? Also, if I am thinking about this correctly regarding summing the appropriate channels to get a full frequency singnal to work with, the ANALOG MEC card add on, which is merely to get the HK/RAM center channel output, would not be needed since the UP10DSP can create a center channel output from the right and left channels…

I may post some screenshots of the DSP software to help better explain what I am talking about in order to help further the discussion…

Edit..
For the screenshots below, the first two are the input and output routing of the HK/RAM signals from the "default" file provided on the AF site. The second two screenshots are what I would think the input and output routing should be, assuming all of the sound info is coming from the front left/right speakers and the left/right underseat woofers in order to provide a full frequency signal by summing these channels. I also renamed the inputs for better clarity (i.e. "Front L Full" to "Front L High") since the front speaker outputs of the HK/RAM really only represent the midrange and high range frequencies, not the full frequency spectrum.

The nice thing about the virtual channel processing of the UP10DSP is that the input signals can be routed to any/all of the output channels. What I provided below is one of many examples with how the signals can be routed/customized to take full advantage of the digital effects/processing inside the UP10DSP to get your system sounding the way you want....

This is very interesting.... wonder if someone has already tried this. If the HK AMP is only sending certain signal ranges to the individual speaker sets, then the crossover settings in the DSP tool basically make no difference. Summing the signals could allow for more control over the crossover points.

I do feel like my focals in the doors aren't playing as low as the specs say they should.... maybe this is why. I may play around with this if I can find some time.

[jmciver]

Now that I think about this a bit more, the “summing profile” for the cars with the factory RAM may need to be a bit more intricate than the example I originally posted above. This would be in order to retain fader control, proper park distance control (PDC) audio direction, and auxiliary audio (i.e. from navigation, phone calls, etc). So to get a full frequency range signal properly, you may need to do something like this…

For the front left signal, sum: Front Left door and Front Left Underseat woofer

For the front right signal, sum: Front Right door and Front Right Underseat woofer

Do this for all four “corners” of the car and you should have a full frequency range input for each corner for the DSP to work with AND still retain the factory sound control I mentioned above - at least theoretically.

I would test this signal routing first before doing any actual EQ’ing of the DSP output channels to verify proper factory operation of the audio control. Some experimentation/tweaking may be required, especially for the PDC audio I would think…

[jmciver]

For the OP, do you know if any non-music sound info (like navigation, phone calls, PDC, etc), comes from the center channel? Assuming you have not changed any of the input/output signal routing from the default Audiotec tune file, you can find out by merely turning off (or muting) the center channel in the tune file.

This info would be good to know for others who may want to use the UP10DSP in HK/RAM equipped vehicles. It would mean that the MEC Analog In add-on board is not really required. I have not verified the actual pins on the harness, but I believe the only reason the MEC Analog In is needed is to get the center speaker output from the RAM. However, the DSP FX software can create a center channel output (better than factory IMHO) with the left and right signals, so the factory center channel signal is not needed.

An added bonus is that it will save ~$150 or so as the MEC Analog In is usually sold separately. Of course, a reason to keep it would be integration of aftermarket audio devices like a radar detector. I integrated my radar detector sound (a Valentine 1) using one of the unused speaker level inputs in my UP10DSP in my M3 - so now my V1 can be heard from the car’s speakers (the MEC Analog in is not needed in my application, though). Just one example of the flexibility/integration that this amp is capable of….

[doobiesd]

If I want to keep my stock HK amp, which speaker set runs the most efficiently? Separates and Subs, while still kicking a$$?

[-cj-]

Anyone who has done this mod, are you getting really loud OEM start up and blinker (what are those?) sounds at obnoxious volume levels? Someone reported that earlier with the 8DSP version.. I haven’t done this mod yet, but I’m curious.

Also, where’s the best place to purchase this? Do any of our vendors carry it?

[Herofmine]

Originally Posted by doobiesd

If I want to keep my stock HK amp, which speaker set runs the most efficiently? Separates and Subs, while still kicking a$$?

I just bought entire OEM B&W speaker set from salvaged x7 for $425, including a pillar twitters.
Ordered Chinese speaker covers and will do the retrofit once they arrive, problem is how HK amp will handle.

[PinkNinja400Guy]

Originally Posted by Herofmine

I just bought entire OEM B&W speaker set from salvaged x7 for $425, including a pillar twitters.
Ordered Chinese speaker covers and will do the retrofit once they arrive, problem is how HK amp will handle.

B&W tweeters & midranges have the same impedance as the H/K speakers, so your amp should be able to drive them with no issue. The B&W subwoofers are lower impedance so using them with the H/K amp may be risky.

[Herofmine]

Originally Posted by PinkNinja400Guy

B&W tweeters & midranges have the same impedance as the H/K speakers, so your amp should be able to drive them with no issue. The B&W subwoofers are lower impedance so using them with the H/K amp may be risky.

Did you replace your sub?
I have x5m with b&o sound system and man it’s a night and day difference with hk in x7, low and mids are very accurate in b&o. I am trying to achieve similar sound quality, what if I swap the sub with previous gen b&o?

Not much options, only bavsound has 8 ohm sub. Maybe better to upgrade the amp as well and throw 2 ohm subs.

[Herofmine]

Originally Posted by SpiralOut

Step 3 - Upgrade the HK Amp with the Match UP DSP:

I added the Match UP 10DSP Amplifier. This gets a bit confusing, because you need more than the Amp. You need the Amp, the additional MEC Card because we need 1 extra input channel for our system, and the BMW specific wiring harness to wire it into the HK Amp and RAM module. This is what I ordered:

Match UP 10 DSP: https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...fiers/up-10dsp
Match PP-BMW 1.9RAM-HK: https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...-bmw-1-9ram-hk
Match MEC Analog In for UP 10DSP: https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m.../mec-analog-in

The MEC Card install into the AMP is pretty straightforward, remove 3 screws from the side and then you can remove the side panel and slide out the bottom panel of the amp, then pop in the MEC card, slide bottom back on, and install new side plate that came with the MEC with the same 3 screws. DO NOT change the jumpers on the MEC card, there is some verbiage on it in the instructions with warnings but the default settings are what we need, so don’t change anything.

The wiring harness is very easy, plugs to the amp only fit in one spot so easy enough. The main HK Amp plug and RAM Module plug are labeled so you can tell what is what. In the pic, what you see is the HK Amp, but stacked behind the amp there are 2 other things…. The RAM module is the one at the back of the stack….. hard to see it in pictures. Both Plugs are on the left hand side so they are easy to get to. The access panel seems small, but [...]

Where did you buy the amp and accessories? Links you’ve shared from German website. I live in Texas, could not find local sellers for this amp. Thanks

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Herofmine

Where did you buy the amp and accessories? Links you’ve shared from German website. I live in Texas, could not find local sellers for this amp. Thanks

Search on eBay for the UP10 DSP and you will find several vendors selling them, most from overseas. I purchased mine from vendor Allwoodsaudio out of the UK. I went this route because I could not find any state side vendors other than a few stereo install shops. But all of the shops that I did find either were more expensive than the overseas vendors or would only sell the product if they installed it…