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      03-30-2021, 05:26 PM   #1
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AMG Reveals New Details on E-Performance V8 with 800+HP + New I4 and EV Powertrains

Mercedes-AMG E Performance Is The Future For GT 4-Door, C-Class
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Originally Posted by Motor1
Today's sign that the future of the automobile lies in electrification comes from Affalterbach, Germany, where the high-horsepower madmen at Mercedes-AMG are sharing details on future performance variants. AMG is developing an EV that will debut later this year, but for now, we’re focusing on a new E Performance plug-in-hybrid powertrain for the AMG GT 4-Door and C-Class sedan.

Mercedes-AMG is taking what it calls a “modular” approach with its new powertrains. Rather than a single gas-powered engine, these new models pair turbocharged four- or eight-cylinder gasoline engines and a nine-speed automatic transmission on the front axle with a so-called Electric Drive Unit (EDU) on the rear axle, which packages a lithium-ion battery, a cooling system for all 560 cells, a powerful electric motor, an electrically controlled differential, and a separate two-speed transmission. If that all sounds complicated, well, it is.

AMG is confident of the advantages of this approach, though, and it's hard to argue when you see combined system figures like 804 horsepower (600 kilowatts) and 738 pound-feet(1,001 Newton-meters) of torque with the twin-turbocharged, 4.0-liter V8 E Performance variant. Those figures broadly fit some savory rumors. That setup, bound for the AMG GT 4-Door later this year, will help the sleek sedan scoot to 60 in under 3.0 seconds. For reference, the current GT63 S Four-Door will do the deed in 3.1 seconds with just a twin-turbo V8 at its disposal.

As for the C-Class, the rumors are true: the next AMG C will feature a turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder. It's the same M139 unit found in the current AMG A45 and CLA 45, but AMG is mounting it longitudinally rather than in a transverse layout.

Along with the reorientation, there's a new electric turbocharger that Mercedes says is identical to the one found in the AMG One hypercar. These moves increase the 2.0-liter's output to 442 hp (330 kW) before the Electric Drive Unit comes into play. AMG is promising that this new four-cylinder C-Class AMG, which like the GT 4-Door doesn't have an official name yet, will “surpasses comparable current vehicles with V8 engines without hybrid drive.”

In designing and engineering these new powertrains, AMG opted not to simply go it alone, but to call in reinforcements from the Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 team in Brixworth, England. The seven-time consecutive world champions contributed heavily to development of not just the aforementioned electric turbocharger, but to AMG's work on the rear-mounted EDU.

The two AMGs developed an electric motor with a power density of one pound per horsepower, that can deploy 201 hp (150) and 236 lb-ft (320 Nm) in 10-second bursts, and is always on hand with at least 94 hp (70 kW). There's also a belt-driven starter-alternator that produces 14 hp (10.4 kW) and is responsible for firing up the gas engine and running certain things like the air conditioning or lights when the high-voltage battery is running low.

The 6.1-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery, meanwhile, relies on a liquid cooling system to prevent the high temperatures that can sap performance. A high-performance pump circulates 3.7 gallons of non-conductive fluid through cooling modules in individual cells, and then to a heat exchanger on the battery pack itself, before two low-temperature circuits pass things to the front-mounted radiator. This intricate plumbing keeps the battery pack at a consistent 45-degree Celsius (113 degrees Fahrenheit) temperature, optimizing the high-performance battery’s ability to deploy and recuperate energy.

The EDU's integrated two-speed transmission follows a similar approach to what Porsche did with the Taycan. The first speed works from a standstill to provide immediate acceleration, while an electric actuator engages second gear at around 87 miles per hour to better take advantage of the electric motor while it’s at peak rpm.

Taking a page from F1's book, the EDU is “always on.” In other words, there's no special trick or method to accessing the rear drive unit's performance – it's always on hand to provide electrical torque or to recapture energy. But this wouldn't be a high-performance German vehicle without options for the driver. There will be seven drive modes, four different levels of regeneration (including one that Mercedes says mimics gas engine braking), and four separate modes for the AMG Dynamics system.

The dynamics that this new powertrain approach promises are super exciting. While the gas engine and electric motor can work in tandem for straight-line performance, the integrated rear locking differential can manage grip on corner entry. If the driver exceeds the amount of grip at the back, the electric motors can transfer torque laterally to take the place of traditional brake-based stability control or to the front axle via a driveshaft to produce an all-wheel-drive effect.

Despite what AMG has shared, though, there's still a great deal about the new E Performance movement that we don't know. These vehicles are plug-in hybrids, but the automaker hasn't given even the slightest hint as to the range of the 6.1-kilowatt-hour battery. We also know nothing about charge time or speed. And in case you forgot, mum's still the word on what AMG is calling the new E Performance C-Class and GT 4-Door. GT 73 seems like a sure thing, but can a four-cylinder C-Class really adopt the C63 mantle? Count those questions among the many we're hoping will get answers as the year plods on.
Mercedes-AMG Confirms High-Performance EV Will Arrive This Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor1
Mercedes-AMG will introduce high-performance versions of the upcoming EV models in the EQ sub-brand. The result will be similar in spirit to what the division does with other Mercedes products. The basic vehicle will still there, but the engineers will focus their effort on improving straight-line performance, handling, and braking. The first of these AMG-tuned EQ vehicles will debut later this year.

AMG indicates there are two EVs on the immediate horizon. "They are ambassadors for a new era in the performance segment of the 43 and 53 series AMG models," the company says in its announcement.

Both AMG EVs will have an electric motor at the front and at the rear. The 400-volt lithium-ion battery will have its own wiring harness to handle the extra performance from the powertrain. The AMG i-Booster tech will combine electric recuperation and hydraulic braking slowing down.

According to the division's test, this powertrain will give these models performance on par with the division's current 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8 engine and will push the electric products to 60 miles per hour (96 kilometers per hour) in under 4.0 seconds. The top speed will be 155 mph (249 kph).

An AMG model has to look the part, and that's not different for these EV models. They'll feature a new grille with vertical slats that will likely be similar to the Panamericana nose from existing top-spec AMG products. There will also be other expected tweaks like changes to the bumper, side sills, and aerodynamic elements.

Inside, there will be sporty touches like thickly bolstered seats and different trim than other models. The MBUX system will get specific functions to support performance driving. For a proper sound during sporty driving, AMG will tweak the loudspeakers, shaker, and sound generator to create a more aggressive noise than the standard EQ models.
Full Press Release:Mercedes-AMG defines the future of Driving Performance

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      03-30-2021, 08:41 PM   #2
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That looks like a real bad place for the battery in the hybrid...

Then again, that looks like the 2 Grand Coupe abomination, so it all kind of fits I guess...
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      03-30-2021, 09:37 PM   #3
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The amount of cutting-edge engineering going into these vehicles is staggering. I am sure they will deliver incredible performance.

I feel that MB will heavily use their F1 success to really market these cars hard to try and overcome people's apprehension of the new C63 being a 4 cylinder engine.
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      03-30-2021, 10:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd34 View Post
The amount of cutting-edge engineering going into these vehicles is staggering. I am sure they will deliver incredible performance.

I feel that MB will heavily use their F1 success to really market these cars hard to try and overcome people's apprehension of the new C63 being a 4 cylinder engine.
I think we enthusiasts overestimate how much people care about the V8. I'd be willing to wager the forthcoming C63 could be the best selling iteration yet. I've heard so many people thinking a 43 or 53 is a real AMG. Somebody at work keeps telling me "isn't my M240 your dream car?" (they think they're driving an M2)

Basically the general public simply values the badge, image, and straight line acceleration (for bragging rights as nobody ever floors these cars).

And yes I don't doubt it will be objectively a great product. Mercedes is king of F1, if they are utilizing that tech this car will be legit. However nobody can spin its rumoured 4500 lb curb weight as something positive to me. It makes the new M3/4 look like a Miata in comparison.
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      03-30-2021, 11:35 PM   #5
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Well I came super close to pulling the trigger on a new CLA45 that comes equipped with the hand-built M139 engine which is a gem.
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      03-31-2021, 06:32 AM   #6
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It remains somewhat baffling that they have no apparent plans to include their new M256 I6 engine family in their performance product lineup. It leaves an obvious hole - 400hp ICE and 600hp ICE, but no 500hp ICE. They went through the trouble to develop the engine only to leave it hamstrung at 430hp, and then went ahead and pushed their four cylinder beyond that - to within an inch of its life, it would appear. Sure, it’s more difficult to package an I6, but that should not have been a surprise. It’s not like they hadn’t ever built an I6 engine before. And with the beltless design, the new one is very compact.

This would seem to leave them vulnerable to BMW (and others) who can bring performance PHEV setups with six cylinder engines to market that make far more than the 440hp of their M139 I4 (before you get to the electric motor side). Obviously Mercedes still has the V8, but so does everyone else. And at this point, no one is putting a V8 in smaller vehicles anymore, PHEV or otherwise. By contrast, there is still plenty of time left for six cylinder engines in such vehicles.
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      03-31-2021, 06:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It remains somewhat baffling that they have no apparent plans to include their new M256 I6 engine family in their performance product lineup. It leaves an obvious hole - 400hp ICE and 600hp ICE, but no 500hp ICE. They went through the trouble to develop the engine only to leave it hamstrung at 430hp, and then went ahead and pushed their four cylinder beyond that - to within an inch of its life, it would appear. Sure, it’s more difficult to package an I6, but that should not have been a surprise. It’s not like they hadn’t ever built an I6 engine before. And with the beltless design, the new one is very compact.

This would seem to leave them vulnerable to BMW (and others) who can bring performance PHEV setups with six cylinder engines to market that make far more than the 440hp of their M139 I4 (before you get to the electric motor side). Obviously Mercedes still has the V8, but so does everyone else. And at this point, no one is putting a V8 in smaller vehicles anymore, PHEV or otherwise. By contrast, there is still plenty of time left for six cylinder engines in such vehicles.
Completely agree with you. Although I've never driven an MB I6, from everything I read, it's a gem of an engine. I frankly would have 0 interest in a 4 cylinder AMG as I just don't like the character of 4 cylinders in general (at least compared to 6-8-10-12 cylinders). I wouldn't necessarily mind a PHEV as long as it's in an addition to a fully ICE weekend car though, I think they have their place.

The only thing I can think of is that an I6 would just be simply too heavy for a "medium" sized performance car.

P.S. I'm also curious about electric turbos. I know there's a few floating around, but I figured they would have been more mainstream by now. It kind of went quiet on that front.
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      03-31-2021, 07:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It remains somewhat baffling that they have no apparent plans to include their new M256 I6 engine family in their performance product lineup. It leaves an obvious hole - 400hp ICE and 600hp ICE, but no 500hp ICE. They went through the trouble to develop the engine only to leave it hamstrung at 430hp, and then went ahead and pushed their four cylinder beyond that - to within an inch of its life, it would appear. Sure, it's more difficult to package an I6, but that should not have been a surprise. It's not like they hadn't ever built an I6 engine before. And with the beltless design, the new one is very compact.

This would seem to leave them vulnerable to BMW (and others) who can bring performance PHEV setups with six cylinder engines to market that make far more than the 440hp of their M139 I4 (before you get to the electric motor side). Obviously Mercedes still has the V8, but so does everyone else. And at this point, no one is putting a V8 in smaller vehicles anymore, PHEV or otherwise. By contrast, there is still plenty of time left for six cylinder engines in such vehicles.
I believe its mainly because its not a hand-built AMG engine. Similar to a BMW engine, its a series regular engine that is tuned or enhanced. The engine isn't being abandoned as its going to be used in all E-Class and up series vehicles, as well as the new S-Class in S500 and S580e trims, just won't be used in a full-fledged AMG model. Only the M139 and M177 are hand-built. I'm not sure why exactly they don't want to use the M256 but it seems AMG is only interested in using the M139 and M177.
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      03-31-2021, 07:42 AM   #9
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Why is the belt driven alternator a highlight?
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      03-31-2021, 07:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I believe its mainly because its not a hand-built AMG engine. Similar to a BMW engine, its a series regular engine that is simply tuned or enhanced, and also a harder engine to package due to it being an I6 (apparently doesn't fit in the W206 without compromises made). Only the M139 and M177 are hand-built.
Sure. But the M139 is based on the pedestrian M260, and the M177/M178 also have a non-AMG M176 counterpart. There's nothing stopping AMG from similarly creating their own hand-built, high performance variant of the I6. I understand the packaging aspect, but like I say, this is something they knew would present challenges before they decided to switch from the V6 back to the I6. And they also know those challenges can be overcome.

Furthermore, even if we ignore the C family of vehicles, there is still the E and S families. BMW has the M*50e PHEV setup coming, and we expect over 500hp (with the potential to evolve to 600hp or more). Mercedes has the existing *53 non-hybrid I6 setup today, and if rumors hold, a *53e setup featuring a variant of this new M139 PHEV arrangement. So we are going to have larger vehicles like the E53e, GLE 53e, reportedly even SL53e, using a buzzy four cylinder? All while completely skipping the obvious possibility for an M256 PHEV? It just seems like a very peculiar strategy.
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      03-31-2021, 08:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Why is the belt driven alternator a highlight?
From Daimler's Press Release:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimler
Belt-driven starter-alternator as standard

The four- and eight-cylinder performance hybrids also receive a belt-driven starter-alternator (RSG) that combines the alternator and starter in one component and produces 10 kW (14 hp). It starts the combustion engine and ensures the basic supply of the auxiliary units such as air conditioning or driving lights, for example, when the vehicle is at a traffic light and the charge level of the high-voltage battery is no longer sufficient to support the low-voltage on-board network. The RSG is particularly responsive because it is integrated into the 400-volt high-voltage grid.
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      03-31-2021, 09:05 AM   #12
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Article is worth a full read and consideration before summarily dismissing because 4 cylinder.

Probably thanks to F1 fandom and never being that keen on turbocharged engines (apart from weight penalty, see no reason to favor turbo over hybrid), I'm sold on this tech.

Enjoy the V8 in the C63 S everyday, but do I think the AMG F1 engineers could do better with 4 fewer cylinders & hybrid tech? Honestly, yup. They've been mastering that exact combination since 2013.

If they want to really stick a knife in M --

AMG F1 car revs to 14,000.

Project One revs to 11,000.

M139 in entry AMG's revs to 7,200.

C63 revs to.....

Powertrain could potentially deliver the very best historical characteristics of both AMG and M -- torque, responsiveness, and high revs.

Would be the ideal recipe to offset the loss of the V8.
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      03-31-2021, 01:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiMSport View Post
Well I came super close to pulling the trigger on a new CLA45 that comes equipped with the hand-built M139 engine which is a gem.
The engine is great but the exhaust sound is horrible. AMG's aren't nearly as appealing without the V8.
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      03-31-2021, 02:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd34 View Post
The amount of cutting-edge engineering going into these vehicles is staggering. I am sure they will deliver incredible performance.

I feel that MB will heavily use their F1 success to really market these cars hard to try and overcome people's apprehension of the new C63 being a 4 cylinder engine.
I agree. in the FRONT - Turbo inline 4 with an electric-exhaust turbocharger, belt driven starter-alternator, multi clutch transmission driving the front wheels. REAR - Battery pack and rear electric motor with a 2 speed transmission and a rear axle limited slip differential.

All with the character of a hybrid 4. Assuming some amount of time it is running on just the electric motor.

If the goal is to convince me to just buy an EV (battery pack, multi electric motors, most with no transmission), it is working.
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      03-31-2021, 04:03 PM   #15
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Nice kW/l ratio with the 2.0 four cylinder.

Good to see a north-south installation in the C-Class.

Let’s see what initial vehicle quality and medium-long term reliability are like on this new powertrain. Mercedes is 5 or 6 notches down from their competitors in these areas.
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      03-31-2021, 04:08 PM   #16
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I can just imagine if BMW claimed the next M3/M4 was going to be 4-cyl FWD with electric driven rear wheels. There would be a meltdown at this forum of epic proportions. The best part about AMG's is the V8 and without that I'm not sure about the appeal.
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      03-31-2021, 04:32 PM   #17
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AMG have spent 8+ years and billions developing and mastering this powertrain tech, they're the best in the world at it. I think you guys better hang on. I doubt they've done all of that to sell a couple hundred Project Ones.

They have the knowhow to pull an absolute blinder here. By some margin it could be the most exciting and engaging powertrain in the class.

If I'm not mistaken the F1 rev limit increases to 18,000 for next year.

Last time a certain German manufacturer was involved in F1 we got a pretty spectacular engine out of the deal.

You're pissing off Toto.

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      03-31-2021, 06:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
AMG have spent 8+ years and billions developing and mastering this powertrain tech, they're the best in the world at it. I think you guys better hang on. I doubt they've done all of that to sell a couple hundred Project Ones.

They have the knowhow to pull an absolute blinder here. By some margin it could be the most exciting and engaging powertrain in the class.

If I'm not mistaken the F1 rev limit increases to 18,000 for next year.

Last time a certain German manufacturer was involved in F1 we got a pretty spectacular engine out of the deal.

You're pissing off Toto.

I can respect your opinion, and clearly you've got some pretty tasty cars... but I disagree. There's no doubt MB are very knowledgeable when it comes to this setup due to their F1 involvement, but just because they're following F1 rules doesn't mean it makes any more enticing to me.

At the end of the day, I'm just not a fan of 4 cylinders in general, so it doesn't matter how fast it is or how high it revs. Unpopular opinion: The S2000 has a higher redline than my Z4M, but I personally prefer the S54's character.

At the end of the day, the performance of the car is not the only thing that matters.
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      03-31-2021, 07:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
The engine is great but the exhaust sound is horrible. AMG's aren't nearly as appealing without the V8.
It is for me, someone who doesn't just care about the exhaust note. I understand what you mean though. AMGs are synonymous with V8s.
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      03-31-2021, 07:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
At the end of the day, the performance of the car is not the only thing that matters.
though neither is the engine type ... I love V8s, but I'll keep an open mind about the vehicle. I've driven a few vehicles with real soul and engine type is not a common factor.
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      03-31-2021, 07:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
though neither is the engine type ... I love V8s, but I'll keep an open mind about the vehicle. I've driven a few vehicles with real soul and engine type is not a common factor.
A good example of that is the Porsche 718.
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      03-31-2021, 09:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I think we enthusiasts overestimate how much people care about the V8. I'd be willing to wager the forthcoming C63 could be the best selling iteration yet. I've heard so many people thinking a 43 or 53 is a real AMG. Somebody at work keeps telling me "isn't my M240 your dream car?" (they think they're driving an M2)

Basically the general public simply values the badge, image, and straight line acceleration (for bragging rights as nobody ever floors these cars).

And yes I don't doubt it will be objectively a great product. Mercedes is king of F1, if they are utilizing that tech this car will be legit. However nobody can spin its rumoured 4500 lb curb weight as something positive to me. It makes the new M3/4 look like a Miata in comparison.
Yes, I agree that majority of buyers for this car outside the enthusiast crowd won't care about the lack of a V8 and the associated sound/exhaust note.

LOL about the M240 comment. My biggest frustration is when non-car people ask me about the V6 under my hood...
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