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      04-24-2021, 04:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RAUDERRIPPER View Post
And then again the turbo coupe is base 132k, and turbo Se hybrid is 166k, F95 starting at 105. If anything the GTS (110k, 453 hp) is the closest comparison imho.

Serious question in comparison though, do you align price or just highest trim?

As far as BMW tribalism, this is the bimmerforum. Is it that strange?
Based on his other posts and mighty excellent points, this guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
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      04-24-2021, 06:24 PM   #24
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You realize the cayenne turbo s e hybrid... does 0-60 3.2 and is almost a full sec faster in the qtr mile than the x5mc... right?


I love BMW but this weird circle jerk tribalism against Porsche is weird. Porsche > BMW at the end of the day.
I'd say that's true if there's an asterisk by the comparison which states something like "if price is not a factor". At the same price point, almost every BMW model is either as fast/quick as or faster than its closest Porsche rival (Cayenne vs X5, Macan vs X3, Panamera vs M850i, X5/X6M Comp vs Cayenne/Coupe GTS).

Where Porsche wins is in two categories: 2 door sports cars (911 and Cayman/Boxter are just better "sports cars" than an M8 or Z4), and having one higher trim level than BMW in its models (Turbo S/E-Hybrid)
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      04-24-2021, 08:51 PM   #25
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These posts are so funny to me. You want a fast car in a straight line buy an electric car. Used to be a time when every BMW fan boy would say "yes the MB is faster but driving feel, sporty is why I buy BMW

I have owned over 50BMW's most M cars most recent F90 M5. Dumped it in 3 months Pre covid and never drove it. I hated it. Fast as can be completely unconnected and not fun.

The new direction of BMW isn't to my taste at all. Every car/suv same deal they're fast now but numb steering Harsh suspension that doesn't at all translate into good handling and feel and heavy.

I own a Cayenne GTS have driven the X5M comp extensively. The X5M is def faster in a straight line yes and so is a Model X doesn't mean I want either Handling/steering feel/400 lbs lighter Cayenne wins all day for me. I'd take the Cayenne GTS Coupe I have any day and twice on Saturday over the
X5M and I did. At the end of the day I like sporty responsive and dialed in whether it's an suv or sports car and that BMW is not

Video notwithstanding CD tested the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M to 60 and neck and neck quarter mile
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      04-24-2021, 09:11 PM   #26
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These posts are so funny to me. You want a fast car in a straight line buy an electric car. Used to be a time when every BMW fan boy would say "yes the MB is faster but driving feel, sporty is why I buy BMW

I have owned over 50BMW's most M cars most recent F90 M5. Dumped it in 3 months Pre covid and never drove it. I hated it. Fast as can be completely unconnected and not fun.

The new direction of BMW isn't to my taste at all. Every car/suv same deal they're fast now but numb steering Harsh suspension that doesn't at all translate into good handling and feel and heavy.

I own a Cayenne GTS have driven the X5M comp extensively. The X5M is def faster in a straight line yes and so is a Model X doesn't mean I want either Handling/steering feel/400 lbs lighter Cayenne wins all day for me. I'd take the Cayenne GTS Coupe I have any day and twice on Saturday over the
X5M and I did. At the end of the day I like sporty responsive and dialed in whether it's an suv or sports car and that BMW is not

Video notwithstanding CD tested the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M to 60 and neck and neck quarter mile
It's totally fine that you feel your Cayenne GTS is better in handling and steering than the X5M. However, that was not what was proclaimed earlier. It was said earlier very broadly "Porsche>BMW". Steering and handling are fine, but I would say when most people argue what's better in terms of performance, especially on these forums, they are referencing 0-60 and quarter mile times, whether it's the truly and objectively best metric notwithstanding. I don't have an X5M or a Cayenne GTS for that matter, so I don't really have a dog in the fight quite yet (planning on getting an X6M as my next lease).

In that situation, the X5, maybe not BMW as a whole, is better than Porsche, again with an asterisk upended by "for the price".

That further holds true to features/options. You would easily need to add $30K-40K more in options to Porsche to just match a comparably equipped BMW.

Add in that the X5M is far more affordable when factoring in discounts and especially leasing, the idea of Porsche being the "best" starts to really only boil down to a few metrics, unless one is willing to spend major coin, at which point the Urus enters the chat.
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      04-24-2021, 09:30 PM   #27
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These posts are so funny to me. You want a fast car in a straight line buy an electric car. Used to be a time when every BMW fan boy would say "yes the MB is faster but driving feel, sporty is why I buy BMW

I have owned over 50BMW's most M cars most recent F90 M5. Dumped it in 3 months Pre covid and never drove it. I hated it. Fast as can be completely unconnected and not fun.

The new direction of BMW isn't to my taste at all. Every car/suv same deal they're fast now but numb steering Harsh suspension that doesn't at all translate into good handling and feel and heavy.

I own a Cayenne GTS have driven the X5M comp extensively. The X5M is def faster in a straight line yes and so is a Model X doesn't mean I want either Handling/steering feel/400 lbs lighter Cayenne wins all day for me. I'd take the Cayenne GTS Coupe I have any day and twice on Saturday over the
X5M and I did. At the end of the day I like sporty responsive and dialed in whether it's an suv or sports car and that BMW is not

Video notwithstanding CD tested the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M to 60 and neck and neck quarter mile
It's totally fine that you feel your Cayenne GTS is better in handling and steering than the X5M. However, that was not what was proclaimed earlier. It was said earlier very broadly "Porsche>BMW". Steering and handling are fine, but I would say when most people argue what's better in terms of performance, especially on these forums, they are referencing 0-60 and quarter mile times, whether it's the truly and objectively best metric notwithstanding. I don't have an X5M or a Cayenne GTS for that matter, so I don't really have a dog in the fight quite yet (planning on getting an X6M as my next lease).

In that situation, the X5, maybe not BMW as a whole, is better than Porsche, again with an asterisk upended by "for the price".

That further holds true to features/options. You would easily need to add $30K-40K more in options to Porsche to just match a comparably equipped BMW.

Add in that the X5M is far more affordable when factoring in discounts and especially leasing, the idea of Porsche being the "best" starts to really only boil down to a few metrics, unless one is willing to spend major coin, at which point the Urus enters the chat.
Apples and oranges. Get your point.

I don't like the feel of BMW's anymore. They also depreciate like lead weights

I don't cross shop any BMW sedan or sports car with Porsche like I said apples and oranges

I owned a 2020 992 Carrera S drove it for 10 months and traded it back in for 2k less than I paid

So to me what's the real cost - 2k to drive a 140k car for 10 months or buy a M8 lose 25k in 10 months so is the BMW really the better bargain? I say no. In my mind BMW is not competing with Porsche other than perhaps SUV's. Proof being it's nearly impossible to find any 992 911's anywhere yet the M8 sat on lots for going on 2 years. The M5 has massive discounts, the X5M and X6M massive discounts where the higher end Cayennes aren't discountedz

If you lease certainly BMW is the leader no doubt about it.

My point was simply a car that's fast in a straight line is great doesn't make the car better and outside of this video there is no X5 M50 beating a cayenne turbo when the mags have the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M comp to 60 and close race in 1/4 mile
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      04-26-2021, 04:17 PM   #28
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To whoever asked me why I like the X5M over the Macan-
In truth, it's probably not really a fair comparison. I didn't have the turbo and I think if we're comparing Porsche vs BMW you need a Cayenne Turbo S vs X5M. But I'd bet they're basically even except the price tag.

The Macan felt kinda sporty, the X5M feels like an M car so to me it's just an all around better/more enjoyable drive. I'm sure a big part of that is the V8 vs V6. The Macan might be more nimble in a tight slalom but the X5M feels like it has the same or more hold in normal corners.

My 2 buddies have a M2 and M3 and while M cars are more impressive than I originally thought, I still don't think they're on the same playing field as a 911 or Cayman GT4. When it comes to SUVs (SAVs) I can't stand here and say one brand is better than the other besides my own personal experience of "upgrading" to a higher trim level and model.
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      04-26-2021, 05:05 PM   #29
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Meh, I traded a 991 C4S for a M2C and would do it all again and this coming from 30 years of strait 911 ownership with racing 930s and decades of concourse. I am done with “modern 911 platforms”. I still own a classic air-cooled 911 but won’t touch a new Porsche. I essentially switched teams to BMW. I am not going to bash Porsche but I know more about them and the directions they have started going a few years back. Porsche is selling their history and image more these days. I still am a PCA concourse judge but new Porsche is just another luxury car for more reasons than I care to get into.

BMW gives up nothing to Porsche in the high performance department and certainly outdoes them in the luxury department. The two companies just go about it in different ways and different platforms which give both very unique attitudes. Porsche is just heads and tails better in marketing than BMW that likes to shoot themself in the foot when they finally get running.

Last edited by MystroX5; 04-26-2021 at 05:22 PM..
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      04-27-2021, 09:49 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAUDERRIPPER View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllaVodka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Porsche cannot go electric soon enough

To slow 💨
You realize the cayenne turbo s e hybrid... does 0-60 3.2 and is almost a full sec faster in the qtr mile than the x5mc... right?


I love BMW but this weird circle jerk tribalism against Porsche is weird. Porsche > BMW at the end of the day.
And then again the turbo coupe is base 132k, and turbo Se hybrid is 166k, F95 starting at 105. If anything the GTS (110k, 453 hp) is the closest comparison imho.

Serious question in comparison though, do you align price or just highest trim?

As far as BMW tribalism, this is the bimmerforum. Is it that strange?
I hate this $$ argument. At that rate, the corvette crushes BMW when it comes to value. But I never see anyone mention that here. Or the Tesla P100D.

Also, this whole straight line speed obsession lately is just weird for BMW fans IMO. Feels like I'm on a dodge charger forum from like 10 years ago. U want fast 0-100 straight line? Tesla wins every. Single. Time.

U want best straight line speed + handling, for the best $$ (unless $$ isnt a big deal, which u said it is) then the corvette wins.

I love BMW but im not gonna be blinded by brand loyalty.
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      04-27-2021, 09:57 AM   #31
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Meh, I traded a 991 C4S for a M2C and would do it all again and this coming from 30 years of strait 911 ownership with racing 930s and decades of concourse. I am done with "modern 911 platforms". I still own a classic air-cooled 911 but won't touch a new Porsche. I essentially switched teams to BMW. I am not going to bash Porsche but I know more about them and the directions they have started going a few years back. Porsche is selling their history and image more these days. I still am a PCA concourse judge but new Porsche is just another luxury car for more reasons than I care to get into.

BMW gives up nothing to Porsche in the high performance department and certainly outdoes them in the luxury department. The two companies just go about it in different ways and different platforms which give both very unique attitudes. Porsche is just heads and tails better in marketing than BMW that likes to shoot themself in the foot when they finally get running.
I personally think the 991 was the last "true" modern 911. And the 997 is going to go down as one of the best driver 911's, with the perfect amount of technology to not feel very outdated. It blurs the lines of modern
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      04-27-2021, 05:54 PM   #32
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Apples and oranges. Get your point.

I don't like the feel of BMW's anymore. They also depreciate like lead weights

I don't cross shop any BMW sedan or sports car with Porsche like I said apples and oranges

I owned a 2020 992 Carrera S drove it for 10 months and traded it back in for 2k less than I paid

So to me what's the real cost - 2k to drive a 140k car for 10 months or buy a M8 lose 25k in 10 months so is the BMW really the better bargain? I say no. In my mind BMW is not competing with Porsche other than perhaps SUV's. Proof being it's nearly impossible to find any 992 911's anywhere yet the M8 sat on lots for going on 2 years. The M5 has massive discounts, the X5M and X6M massive discounts where the higher end Cayennes aren't discountedz

If you lease certainly BMW is the leader no doubt about it.

My point was simply a car that's fast in a straight line is great doesn't make the car better and outside of this video there is no X5 M50 beating a cayenne turbo when the mags have the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M comp to 60 and close race in 1/4 mile
Few things:

1.) Define "massive discounts" because I don't think 10-11% off constitutes a massive discount. I've seen threads on other sites that show Porsches in the 5-8% range. Sure you may not get a discount on a brand new 911 GT3, but that's not happening on an M2CS either.
2.) If the 992 was such an orgasm on wheels, why ditch it after less than a year?
3.) Considering that a modestly equipped (for me) 992 would spec'd out at $150K, while I believe you got $2K less than you paid after 10 months, I'd venture to guess that your situation trends more towards the exception and not the rule. I could be wrong, but there seems to be a heavy skew towards leasing, which, to your point is +1 for BMW.
3a.) Sidenote: I'm not paying $148K for someone else's used Porsche that they spec'd to their liking. Why not just buy new?
4.) Cayenne's are cool, it's on our list, but the nickel and diming for even the most basic features is totally unreasonable by Porsche. Again, comparing fully loaded apples to other fully loaded apples (that is: X5MC to Porsche Cayenne GTS) and the BMW is still cheaper, faster and more stylish. And while I won't track mine, in the hands of a capable wheelman, I think the X5MC beats the GTS around the circuit too.
5.) As other posters have stated, BMW really doesn't produce a true sports car. But that's the problem IMHO. BMW has a more well-rounded fleet. Multiple sedan options: sporty (M8), luxury (7), best of both worlds (M5). Like you said, though, BMW has the SUV...ahem SAV...game on lock. Base ​Porsche SUVs look cheap and "plasticy".
6.) I think BMW purposefully caters to the young leasing crowd, particularly for ///M Cars. The age threads I and others have put up run the gamut but resounding theme seems to be: Young (35-50), Male, College or Professional Degree and wants a new car every two to three years.

Again, just different strokes for different folks. In a few years, when I'm a bit more established and can justify a Porsche 911 to Mrs. Malibu then OK, but now with a newborn, backseats are required on all future conveyances for the foreseeable future.
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      04-28-2021, 07:49 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Apples and oranges. Get your point.

I don't like the feel of BMW's anymore. They also depreciate like lead weights

I don't cross shop any BMW sedan or sports car with Porsche like I said apples and oranges

I owned a 2020 992 Carrera S drove it for 10 months and traded it back in for 2k less than I paid

So to me what's the real cost - 2k to drive a 140k car for 10 months or buy a M8 lose 25k in 10 months so is the BMW really the better bargain? I say no. In my mind BMW is not competing with Porsche other than perhaps SUV's. Proof being it's nearly impossible to find any 992 911's anywhere yet the M8 sat on lots for going on 2 years. The M5 has massive discounts, the X5M and X6M massive discounts where the higher end Cayennes aren't discountedz

If you lease certainly BMW is the leader no doubt about it.

My point was simply a car that's fast in a straight line is great doesn't make the car better and outside of this video there is no X5 M50 beating a cayenne turbo when the mags have the regular cayenne turbo faster than the X5M comp to 60 and close race in 1/4 mile
Few things:

1.) Define "massive discounts" because I don't think 10-11% off constitutes a massive discount. I've seen threads on other sites that show Porsches in the 5-8% range. Sure you may not get a discount on a brand new 911 GT3, but that's not happening on an M2CS either.
2.) If the 992 was such an orgasm on wheels, why ditch it after less than a year?
3.) Considering that a modestly equipped (for me) 992 would spec'd out at $150K, while I believe you got $2K less than you paid after 10 months, I'd venture to guess that your situation trends more towards the exception and not the rule. I could be wrong, but there seems to be a heavy skew towards leasing, which, to your point is +1 for BMW.
3a.) Sidenote: I'm not paying $148K for someone else's used Porsche that they spec'd to their liking. Why not just buy new?
4.) Cayenne's are cool, it's on our list, but the nickel and diming for even the most basic features is totally unreasonable by Porsche. Again, comparing fully loaded apples to other fully loaded apples (that is: X5MC to Porsche Cayenne GTS) and the BMW is still cheaper, faster and more stylish. And while I won't track mine, in the hands of a capable wheelman, I think the X5MC beats the GTS around the circuit too.
5.) As other posters have stated, BMW really doesn't produce a true sports car. But that's the problem IMHO. BMW has a more well-rounded fleet. Multiple sedan options: sporty (M8), luxury (7), best of both worlds (M5). Like you said, though, BMW has the SUV...ahem SAV...game on lock. Base ​Porsche SUVs look cheap and "plasticy".
6.) I think BMW purposefully caters to the young leasing crowd, particularly for ///M Cars. The age threads I and others have put up run the gamut but resounding theme seems to be: Young (35-50), Male, College or Professional Degree and wants a new car every two to three years.

Again, just different strokes for different folks. In a few years, when I'm a bit more established and can justify a Porsche 911 to Mrs. Malibu then OK, but now with a newborn, backseats are required on all future conveyances for the foreseeable future.
flip cars all the time, miss my 992 C2S a ton and wish I never got rid of it Bc I can't replace it now. Most dealers have zero sports cars (911's) - even my if I wanted another C2S My dealer has zero that can be ordered as the order bank is full. The idea was flip out of it get a 992 GTS or Turbo. GTS is delayed turbo is sold out for a year at least. So I'm in a holding pattern

Had the main packages and was not 150k.

There are zero discounts on Cayenne GTS Coupes vs 10-12% on X5M that's massive

BMW discounts all their cars significantly and they depreciate at an accelerated pace. My F90 M5 was discounted 20% when I bought it. Luckily I didn't like it at all and resold it 3 months later and didn't take as big a haircut as I would have had I kept it longer

I was the biggest BMW fanboy for the longest time, but again IMO they lost their mojo. Same theme in all their cars across the board. Stiff suspension that doesn't translate at all to connected to the road or confidence Inspiring handling.(stiff just to be stiff), heavy, numb steering

My Cayenne GTS Coupe was exactly the price of a X5M except cheaper when accounting for the huge discount. Stylish is subjective I think all X5's look the same when outfitted with M sport and they don't do much for me in the looks department, it's way too high and looks like just another X5 with some bigger intakes. It's much faster than my Cayenne GTS but imo handles worse feels less connected. It gets muddied when people talk I don't track my car. I don't track my Cayenne what I mean is how it feels in day to day driving - connected, tight, great steering. I had a M4 Comp which I liked significantly more than my F90 M5 due to how it felt. The Idrive system is the best in the business by far and I prefer the interface.

I am in the BMW age/education etx bracket you mention for leasing and used to lease due to BMW's favorable rates and then put on swapalease when I wanted out. I am in a tax credit state and know a Porsche dealer well so now I buy and drive and trade and lose very little money. There is no reason to lease any 911 bc even the most base one demand outstrips supply and they hold value.

There is no doubt about it, if leasing and you want a 150k M8, 120k M5 or 125k X5M no Marques come close to the low lease payments BMW offers. Lot of car for a very low lease payment at that price point, BMW definitely has a huge advantage here, Porsches don't lease well and they are often worth much more than the lease buyout at end of term. Likely why Porsche is so profitable

Agree most base Porsche Cayennes can look cheap plasticky inside and they look pretty plain outside in base trim
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      04-28-2021, 11:58 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllaVodka View Post
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Originally Posted by RAUDERRIPPER View Post
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Originally Posted by AllaVodka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Porsche cannot go electric soon enough

To slow 💨
You realize the cayenne turbo s e hybrid... does 0-60 3.2 and is almost a full sec faster in the qtr mile than the x5mc... right?


I love BMW but this weird circle jerk tribalism against Porsche is weird. Porsche > BMW at the end of the day.
And then again the turbo coupe is base 132k, and turbo Se hybrid is 166k, F95 starting at 105. If anything the GTS (110k, 453 hp) is the closest comparison imho.

Serious question in comparison though, do you align price or just highest trim?

As far as BMW tribalism, this is the bimmerforum. Is it that strange?
I hate this $$ argument. At that rate, the corvette crushes BMW when it comes to value. But I never see anyone mention that here. Or the Tesla P100D.

Also, this whole straight line speed obsession lately is just weird for BMW fans IMO. Feels like I'm on a dodge charger forum from like 10 years ago. U want fast 0-100 straight line? Tesla wins every. Single. Time.

U want best straight line speed + handling, for the best $$ (unless $$ isnt a big deal, which u said it is) then the corvette wins.

I love BMW but im not gonna be blinded by brand loyalty.
Have you sat in an American car? They suck 😂 I've owned a few, still own a decently fast one. Fast but shit quality. Fun tho!

Even under the Americans...Tesla's are bug out fast, but have you seen the quality? Awful. My friends 6 month 100k+ P100 model S door handles don't even work right (paint coming off door handle cups, he has to punch in the handles occasionally) and that car is faster than any bmw m8 in a straight 9/10 times. Still would never spend the money even if I'm saving 50k. The window gap alone on the S's b pillar makes me cringe every time I see it. And those huge gaps are within tolerance!!

Nobody can tell me porsches interior design and build quality is that much better than the merc, bmw, audis. In fact it's probably just more sanitized and less fancy in a Porsche. That new turbo s is amazing, but sitting in it felt like I was in a restomod minimalist Scandinavian built car. And guys will scoff and say "are you kidding, the porsche interiors are the BEST!" Cmon man...

So if we're comparing a sporty German SUV to a sporty German SUV, with a budget of 115k, x5m over a cayenne GTS any day. Show me what's significantly different at those prices between the two. Performance? Build quality? Or is just saying "Porsche" the real difference here?
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      04-29-2021, 03:57 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RAUDERRIPPER View Post
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Originally Posted by AllaVodka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Porsche cannot go electric soon enough

To slow 💨
You realize the cayenne turbo s e hybrid... does 0-60 3.2 and is almost a full sec faster in the qtr mile than the x5mc... right?


I love BMW but this weird circle jerk tribalism against Porsche is weird. Porsche > BMW at the end of the day.
And then again the turbo coupe is base 132k, and turbo Se hybrid is 166k, F95 starting at 105. If anything the GTS (110k, 453 hp) is the closest comparison imho.

Serious question in comparison though, do you align price or just highest trim?

As far as BMW tribalism, this is the bimmerforum. Is it that strange?
I hate this $$ argument. At that rate, the corvette crushes BMW when it comes to value. But I never see anyone mention that here. Or the Tesla P100D.

Also, this whole straight line speed obsession lately is just weird for BMW fans IMO. Feels like I'm on a dodge charger forum from like 10 years ago. U want fast 0-100 straight line? Tesla wins every. Single. Time.

U want best straight line speed + handling, for the best $$ (unless $$ isnt a big deal, which u said it is) then the corvette wins.

I love BMW but im not gonna be blinded by brand loyalty.
Have you sat in an American car? They suck 😂 I've owned a few, still own a decently fast one. Fast but shit quality. Fun tho!

Even under the Americans...Tesla's are bug out fast, but have you seen the quality? Awful. My friends 6 month 100k+ P100 model S door handles don't even work right (paint coming off door handle cups, he has to punch in the handles occasionally) and that car is faster than any bmw m8 in a straight 9/10 times. Still would never spend the money even if I'm saving 50k. The window gap alone on the S's b pillar makes me cringe every time I see it. And those huge gaps are within tolerance!!

Nobody can tell me porsches interior design and build quality is that much better than the merc, bmw, audis. In fact it's probably just more sanitized and less fancy in a Porsche. That new turbo s is amazing, but sitting in it felt like I was in a restomod minimalist Scandinavian built car. And guys will scoff and say "are you kidding, the porsche interiors are the BEST!" Cmon man...

So if we're comparing a sporty German SUV to a sporty German SUV, with a budget of 115k, x5m over a cayenne GTS any day. Show me what's significantly different at those prices between the two. Performance? Build quality? Or is just saying "Porsche" the real difference here?
Handling/road feel/steering feel and feedback/looks/weight/wheel gap

Other than straight line speed the Porsche is superior in driving dynamics

As far as interior I would actually give the nod to MB for having the best looking interiors and BMW next. Better than Porsches interior
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      05-01-2021, 04:00 AM   #36
GrussGott
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There are zero discounts on Cayenne GTS Coupes vs 10-12% on X5M that's massive
If anyone can point me to a dealer willing to go 10% off on an X5M *order*, I'll place that order today.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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