[2heeldrive]

Glad no one was hurt, that could have been bad. I wonder how often this kind of thing happens?

I wouldn't blame her. It may have been operator error or the car could have glitched. It has happened with other cars with a similar setup. Isn't park supposed to automatically engage when the car is shut off?

I miss the old fashioned shifter that was physically attached to the transmission. There was no question when the car was in park with those (unless it was a Ford, but that's a story for another day). I'm not a fan of push button start either. Everyone I know has walked away and left their car running at least once before they got used to not having a key.

[theblackfalcon]

I called BMW's 4Genius... The lady listened to me briefly and said. I need to escalate this to someone else who will be in touch with you within 24 hours. I'm curious to see what response I get. Based on the other responses on this forum, this seems to be an issue weather a glitch... or just a confusing system that needs to be addressed. As noted in that article they could fix this with a software update. I.e. where only way to exit the car in Neutral is through affirmative selection.

[arRod1981]

Originally Posted by theblackfalcon

I am guessing both your dad and my wife probably somehow put the car in Nuetral without realizing it. It goes to a design defect on BMW that this seems to be a problem that is confusing multiple individuals. This wouldn't happen if there was a P... D... N... R... on the center control.

What do you mean P, D, N, R on center control? Are you talking about from where you shift it? If so, the P does light up when you are in fact in park.

[theblackfalcon]

Originally Posted by arRod1981

What do you mean P, D, N, R on center control? Are you talking about from where you shift it? If so, the P does light up when you are in fact in park.

I mean an affirmative shift into P. The same way you currently shift into D or R. My wife would always shift the car from D to N then hit P button. I suspect other old school individuals shift the car out of D which only leaves N as the option. So if the car doesn't hold P it will coast or isn't put into P. If on the shifter it was R, N, D, P. No one would shift to N and leave the car with the potential for roll away.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by theblackfalcon

I mean an affirmative shift into P. The same way you currently shift into D or R. My wife would always shift the car from D to N then hit P button. I suspect other old school individuals shift the car out of D which only leaves N as the option. So if the car doesn't hold P it will coast or isn't put into P. If on the shifter it was R, N, D, P. No one would shift to N and leave the car with the potential for roll away.

Yes, I think if for any reason P isn't put in correctly after putting it into N AND parking brake isn't used. When the car is power off, it will remain on N, and it will roll. I think regardless of gear selector, using parking brake is a good thing.

[amphiprion]

Originally Posted by theblackfalcon

My wife would always shift the car from D to N then hit P button...

I’m curious how many folks do this? When I park, after I come to a stop I just hit the park button. I’ve never put the car in Neutral, even for a split second since I’ve never needed the car to be towed. Neutral puts the car at the mercy the brakes and whatever grade the car is on and also, unfortunately in your wife’s case, whether one actually hits the Park button

Given all that, I agree that there should be some kind of second confirmation that you want the car in Neutral when you open the door. Something like… after you shift into N and the car shifts into neutral. If the the car is not moving and the door is opened the car will automatically engage auto brake hold and if chime to let you know that if you want to keep it in neutral you’ll have to disengage the brake hold manually.

[eelnoraa]

When park, brake should be the primary mechanism to hold the car, park should be secondary. The teeth in the gear box to hold the car in park isn’t all that strong.

For 45e, I am very sure if car is in N, and if you turn off car, there is a warming chime. But if music is on loud, kids are screaming … it is easy to miss. Myself definitely has accidentally put car in N insead of P in my 45e. All not intended, but has happened.

[wufpak]

Originally Posted by kwickag

I Just don't understand why so many people are so averse to using the parking brake, it isn't just BMW owners, I see it everywhere. Even when I pick up my cars from service the parking brake isn't engaged.

I’ve always wondered this. For some odd reason, people REALLY don’t like using parking brakes. Sure, maybe it’s not completely necessary to use with an automatic transmission, but it doesn’t hurt.

[theblackfalcon]

Originally Posted by wufpak

I’ve always wondered this. For some odd reason, people REALLY don’t like using parking brakes. Sure, maybe it’s not completely necessary to use with an automatic transmission, but it doesn’t hurt.

Maybe it's muscle memory from so many cars with a manual parking brake. I.E. my manual JCW. But the button parking brake doesn't elicit the same response parking every time the way a handle did/does.

My truck has one as well and it's down on the left-hand side about where I expect my fog lights to be. So it doesn't get used very often.

Also a handbrake turn with a button usually fails.

[theblackfalcon]

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all on this thread. You had great thoughts/ideas, with a discussion that was helpful. I appreciate the input and politeness. Chonkapotamus your first response/edit was top notch. Thank you.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by theblackfalcon

Maybe it's muscle memory from so many cars with a manual parking brake. I.E. my manual JCW. But the button parking brake doesn't elicit the same response parking every time the way a handle did/does.

My truck has one as well and it's down on the left-hand side about where I expect my fog lights to be. So it doesn't get used very often.

Also a handbrake turn with a button usually fails.

some habits are hard to brake (pun intended lol) whether or not one regularly used the parking brake, but it’s also about accepting and adjusting to change if safety is a priority to you.

my first vehicle out of college was a manual with a hand parking brake, but I’ve driven many vehicles and rentals with the foot parking brake as well. then when the electronic parking brake started making its way, I took note and learned because in my mind, engaging the parking brake when parking is a must as far as safety goes. all vehicles have one, so it must have an important role.

off the top of my head, I can’t think of any scenario where engaging the parking brake when parking is detrimental. anyone? sadly, when we least expect an incident to occur, we let our guard down. “oh, I’ll only be 30 seconds.” (not putting any blame on the OP’s wife, of course)

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

some habits are hard to brake (pun intended lol) whether or not one regularly used the parking brake, but it’s also about accepting and adjusting to change if safety is a priority to you.

my first vehicle out of college was a manual with a hand parking brake, but I’ve driven many vehicles and rentals with the foot parking brake as well. then when the electronic parking brake started making its way, I took note and learned because in my mind, engaging the parking brake when parking is a must as far as safety goes. all vehicles have one, so it must have an important role.

off the top of my head, I can’t think of any scenario where engaging the parking brake when parking is detrimental. anyone? sadly, when we least expect an incident to occur, we let our guard down. “oh, I’ll only be 30 seconds.” (not putting any blame on the OP’s wife, of course)

Only if the brakes are extremely hot- [ETA: after going down] steep grades, tracked car or if wet with freezing temps- possible freeze to rotors, I had this happen on another vehicle once.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

Only if the brakes are extremely hot- steep grades, tracked car or if wet with freezing temps- possible freeze to rotors, I had this happen on another vehicle once.

track car after a few laps, this is definite call for. We always find a flat spot and chuck wheels between sessions.

But steep grades? isn't that exactly why you want parking brake? Relying on the P in auto transmission to hold car in step grade is asking for trouble

[Redroc86]

Theblackfalcon, very happy that everyone is safe. Also, thanks for posting this along with the videos. I started using the parking brake on this car because it was so different than my previous one. I found myself putting it in reverse, not thinking about the P button. I’ve gotten over that, and now setting the parking brake has become normal. Shared the videos with my wife, and now she’s using the parking brake every time as well. Thank You for that theblackfalcon!

I had a ’15 Grand Cherokee and it had a bad shifter design. It had the PRNDL layout and would spring back without a lot of feedback. It ended up having a recall, and FCA put in a software fix, called Auto Park. There were a bunch of instances reported to FCA and NHTSA, as well as a number of injuries. Unfortunately, it took a fatality to bring it to light for FCA to issue the recall with a modification.

You’re absolutely right, BMW can fix this with a software mod. Until then, as was mentioned a bunch of times in the thread, the parking brake is important. I’m real interested to hear how your follow-up call with BMW goes. Hopefully they pay attention to it before there is a bad outcome like with FCA.

I put some links in on the Grand Cherokee issue from a few years back for viewing. Different car, different design but similar circumstances:

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...runaway-jeeps/

https://www.chrysler.com/universal/w...ce/pdf/S27.pdf

[Chonkapotamus]

Originally Posted by theblackfalcon

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all on this thread. You had great thoughts/ideas, with a discussion that was helpful. I appreciate the input and politeness. Chonkapotamus your first response/edit was top notch. Thank you.

You're welcome. This really bothered me when I first read it, and bothered me even more when I saw your videos. FYI I had some time to kill while waiting for my kid's soccer practice this evening, and did a few more tests of how this actually works. What follows requires that AUTO HOLD be off -- the car's behavior is fundamentally different with that active.

I took a few pictures, and they're attached below. I'm not sure how tall your wife is, but if she had the steering wheel adjusted relatively higher, and had the trip data selected, then the warning message on the screen about being in neutral and the N indicator would have been partially or fully obscured by the steering wheel. In the first picture, the car is "ON" and in "P" with the door open. You see the door open picture on the screen behind the wheel. The door open icon is displayed prominently. The P indicator is half obscured by the steering wheel, next to a fully obscured smaller statement that the door is open. On the center panel, you can see the Nav map.

In the second picture, the car is "ON" and in "N" with the door open. You see the SAME prominent door open picture on the screen behind the wheel. You see a very small warning triangle just above the edge of the steering wheel. Below that is an obscured N and an obscured care in neutral message. On the center display is a text warning about the car being in Neutral. In this mode the door chimed once, and only once, when the door was opened. It's the same generic chime that goes off for other reasons.

Now, here's where it gets really scary. I recreated this in my garage with the park distance sensors going off. In pictures three and four, the car is "ON" and in "N" with the door open. The center screen does not display the warning about the car being in Neutral -- it keeps the PDC cameras up. The screen behind first displays the door open icon showing the driver's door is open, and after a time rolls back to the NAV map. The lower warning message scrolls back and forth between the door open text and the car in neutral text. It has the tiny white warning triangle, and the small N indicator.

What this tells me that if you 1) have auto hold off, 2) pull up to a parking spot with something in front of you such that PDC activates, 3) accidently push the shift lever forward slightly rather than hit the P button, 4) fail to manually engage the parking brake, and 5) open your door while not looking at the dash right as it opens (e.g. because you're reaching to grab something from the back seat), when you turn back to the dash your only indicator the car is in neutral will be the single generic chime, the little white warning triangle, and the letter N on the lower edge of the dash board which could be obscured by your steering wheel.

For a car that does its best to protect me from myself, that feels really unacceptable. Rather than show me the door open icon in the middle of the screen behind the steering wheel, how about a big red N flashing front and center?

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

track car after a few laps, this is definite call for. We always find a flat spot and chuck wheels between sessions.

But steep grades? isn't that exactly why you want parking brake? Relying on the P in auto transmission to hold car in step grade is asking for trouble

After going down steep grades- edited post

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Chonkapotamus

...how about a big red N flashing front and center?

meh. gear indicators on the instrument cluster have rarely been designed as prominent fixtures even before electronic gear shifting and digitized clusters and unlikely to change. it's the driver's responsibility to ensure the steering wheel doesn't obscure critical vehicle status and to actively look and confirm which gear he’s in whether on the cluster or the gear selector itself which is actually best practice. (the indicator on the cluster is simply for convenience.) today’s tech can enhance old tech but the basics will endure.

that being said, I rarely look at the cluster for which gear I’m in. I always look at the gear selector when shifting into DRIVE or PARK and always use the parking brake when parked (habit from the stick shift days).

[Guy Fleegman]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

meh. gear indicators on the instrument cluster have rarely been designed as prominent fixtures even before electronic gear shifting and digitized clusters and unlikely to change. it's the driver's responsibility to ensure the steering wheel doesn't obscure critical vehicle status and to actively look and confirm which gear he’s in whether on the cluster or the gear selector itself (which is actually best practice; the indicator on the cluster is simply for convenience). today’s tech can enhance old tech but the basics will endure.

that being said, I rarely look at the cluster for which gear I’m in. I always look at the gear selector when shifting into DRIVE or PARK and always use the parking brake when parked (habit from the stick shift days).

Quite right, but I think the risk of inadvertently shifting to N is elevated in this vehicle because it requires a behavioral change from what we've conventionally done. There is so much that is different about this car that my head was spinning the first few weeks.

We'll all get used to it of course, but I believe this is a risk that should be addressed.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by Guy Fleegman

Quite right, but I think the risk of inadvertently shifting to N is elevated in this vehicle because it requires a behavioral change from what we've conventionally done. There is so much that is different about this car that my head was spinning the first few weeks.

We'll all get used to it of course, but I believe this is a risk that should be addressed.

agree, I’m still not a fan of electronic shifting, but it appears it’s here to stay

[Chonkapotamus]

My concern is more than the behavioral change -- its that the step to put in park and put in neutral both involve pushing something in the same direction with the same degree of force, and the button for park is tiny. Even if you fully habituate pushing the park button, if your finger is high or low or left or right by less than an inch, you're in neutral. The way the car signals that to you is inadequate.

[Ninja_H]

It's very interesting reading through all the posts.

I have a theory. Is it possible that your wife put her foot on the break all the way until she got off, and during the process which took about 8s, she grabbed the lunch bag from the passenger set and the bag accidentally hit the shifter to shift it to N since her foot was on the break?

I got this one time when my passenger accidentally hit the circle button when grabbing a drink right after I shut off the engine and the display was in precondition mode/page. Once the button was hit, my engine just started running without any sign and both of us were surprised.

[theblackfalcon]

Originally Posted by Ninja_H

It's very interesting reading through all the posts.

I have a theory. Is it possible that your wife put her foot on the break all the way until she got off, and during the process which took about 8s, she grabbed the lunch bag from the passenger set and the bag accidentally hit the shifter to shift it to N since her foot was on the break?

I got this one time when my passenger accidentally hit the circle button when grabbing a drink right after I shut off the engine and the display was in precondition mode/page. Once the button was hit, my engine just started running without any sign and both of us were surprised.

I think it easily could have been something along this line. I think the design flaw is that you can put the car in N with such ease, without intention.